Mormonism and Biblical Christianity
Live from the Mecca of Mormonism (and the Factory here in Salt Lake City, Utah) this is Heart of the Matter, where . . . Mormonism meets Biblical Christianity Face to Face . . .
Show 23/353 – Love – part I
August 6th 2013
And I’m your host Shawn McCraney
We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this, His ministry. We pray His Spirit upon you – and us – tonight.
The Tredoux Family and Unveiling Grace
Well standing with me this evening is a family – all the way from South Africa by way of Canada – the Tredoux Family who have a great heart for reaching others with the Good News of Jesus Christ. Father Jacques, why don’t you introduce your beautiful family and tell us a little bit about yourselves. Three minute introduction by Jacques.
Hey, a lot of books have been written by former LDS people (and I personally believe that the best books written on the topic of Mormonism are written by former LDS people) and there is a new one out that is both unique and very well written. (Hold it up here) Unveiling Grace, by Lynn Wilder. Lynn is a former BYU professor and the mother of two Adam’s Road members. Adam’s Road is a band of Christian men who are formerly LDS and tour about sharing how they came out from the faith into a saving relationship with Jesus – a very, very strong witness, if you ever have the chance to hear them play and speak. Well anyway, because Lynn’s son came out of Mormonism, she too has come out and penned this book. It’s publisher is Zondervan. It’s author, again, Lynn Wilder, and the book is titled, Unveiling Grace. Get it where better books are sold.
Testimonies and Outreach Updates
Got an email this morning from Fernando that was titled: Greetings from Mexico! (and said, in part): “I live next to the Mormon colonies that came down to Mexico back in the 1800's and have been established here since. I'm a Christian since I was 8 years old. Fortunately I had the opportunity to attend to a famous school in the region the Mormons built something like a 100 years ago. It was a great blessing from God, because much of my English was taught there. I used to attend to Seminary classes each day for 6 years (Junior High and High School). I really appreciated all their teachings, but there was something in me that whenever I was asked to give a “Spiritual Thought,” I would always use the Word of God as my only reference. Now, things are more clear to me of what the teachings and the depths of the LDS doctrine are. It is so incredible to understand every single issue addressed in your book (which I'm about to finish) because I’ve lived it. I feel a great responsibility now that my eyes have been opened to the truth.”
Dovetailing perfectly with this email we received some really amazing news yesterday from “Aaron in Arizona.” Using his amazing talents and skills ALL of the Heart of the Matter television programs are currently being translated into Spanish and will be available on YouTube and through our archives at HOTM.TV within about six months. With the power and persuasion of Mormonism essentially going uncontested in Latin America (by virtue of the lack of information available to Spanish speaking people on the topic) this is going to make HUGE in-roads in protecting these beautiful people when it comes to the Mormon machine. I praise God for people like Aaron who are willing to hear God and follow Him in pursuits like this. Andrew in Norway did a similar thing in putting us on YouTube years ago and it has had a profound impact on the breadth of this ministry.
Structure and Culture
In the face of this wonderful announcement about our outreach to all Latin American countries (and beyond) I have to point something out: I am certain – certain – that if or when Mormonism is accepted by people in Latin America their lives will materially improve – IF they actively embrace the ways and means of the LDS church. Mormonism provides structure, it provides an immediate culture where people in communities can become ward families, and once thriving, it often provides financial rewards by and through the networking that occurs. As we’ve said before Mormonism supplies moral guidance, Christian based ethics, and promotes what most would deem a “better standard of living.” But listen CAREFULLY – Mormonism will NOT give them the Gospel – the Good News – of Jesus Christ. It will give them a…
Evaluating Religious Teachings
Counterfeit. And, if and when truly embraced, it will keep people FROM being His instead of bringing people to Him. (I’m going to talk more about this concept in a minute).
Listen – when it comes to eternal truths we are NOT looking for what makes this life better, cleaner, more ordered and even more beneficial. Any well-run club can provide these things. We are looking for the truth that reconciles all humanity to God.
I am so committed to Jesus Christ and His finished work that I welcome (you heard me right) I welcome the opportunity to help bring a person who does NOT know God down from the lap of luxury, out of a happy marriage, or away from a fantastic career that is what it will take for them to KNOW . . . Him, which is to know life eternal.
Reflecting on Mormon Beliefs
Over the past few weeks I have given Mormonism some props. Even going so far as saying that in terms of who does church best it was the LDS.
Last week on the show I said that Mormonism in many ways was really no different than other religious organizations, adding: “People are people,” and “Church is church,” so what really matters?
I was talking with my dear friend (RJR – who used to be LDS) and we started listing some things we cannot believe we allowed ourselves to believe (even as grown men) when we were active members of the Mormon church. So we started making a list. So just kind of sit back (especially if you are LDS) and let yourselves sort of ruminate over these concepts, teachings, tales, and songs . . . and when I present them to you ask yourselves, “Does this stuff ring true?” For example,
That Joseph Smith said the planet closest to God’s home is called . . . Kolob.
That God gave Adam a commandment but WANTED him to break it, and his breaking it has amounted to the greatest mass of human suffering imaginable?
That Mormon Apostle Bruce R McConkie, from the pulpit, said: “We do not worship Christ.”
That a character’s name from the Book of Mormon, who is never mentioned in the book, was later revealed by Joseph Smith to be . . . “Mahonri Moriancumer.”
That early church leaders taught that Jesus was a polygamist, and many current (but older) church members agree.
That back in the 1800’s (during a military march) some bones were unearthed in the wilderness and looking upon them Joseph Smith said they were the remains of a great White Lamanite whose name was . . . Zelph?
That an early Mormon murderer named Porter Rockwell was told by Smith that if he never cut his hair he would never be killed. (Rockwell drown in his own vomit in a barn from abusing alcohol).
That the LDS literally believe and teach that the Garden of Eden was originally in . . . Missouri!
That LDS Apostle Boyde Packer actually said, “When the Brethren have spoken the thinking has been done.”
(“Hey Boyd, I would suggest that when the brethren speak it’s time to start thinking”) (By the way, Old Boyd Packer also said (as an a,a,a,a, apostle) that the Holy Spirit is “quenched or offended when people speaking at funerals refer to the departed by their nick-names like “Chuck instead of Charles” or “Bill instead of William”).
Controversial Teachings
That faithful temple covenanted, garment wearing Latter-day Saints butchered over 120 unarmed men, women and children and that Mormon prophet Brigham Young, standing over a place marking the spot actually said: “Vengenance is mine,” saith the Lord, and I have taken some.”
Does this stuff sound Christian? Like the real teachings of Jesus?
I learned that there are three Nephite’s (from the Book of Mormon) who roam the land apparently helping people out with chores – especially farm chores – which didn’t help me much growing up in Huntington Beach.
That an LDS Aa,a,a, apostle named Mark E, Peterson (who was around when I was a kid) said the following things – as an LDS aaaaapostle: From the 1970 Missionary Guide and regarding the topic of masturbation, Peterson said: “Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during the normal toilet process.” “When you bathe, do not admire yourself in the mirror.” “Dress yourself at night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts.” “If you are tempted, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms and eating several of them as you do the act.” “reduce the amounts of spices and condiments in your food.” I mean, this apostle actually said: “I have
Teachings and Beliefs in Mormonism
I have been married to my wife for forty-four years and never once have seen her body uncovered.”
Now listen, I get that times were different back then and that all faiths have people who say and do some really outrageous stuff. But here’s my issue – these guys speak (in the realms of Mormonism – and when you hear them you take their words as true, and if you question their words YOU are cast out!
Strange Beliefs
Did you know . . . That the 1916 LDS Priesthood manual has a topic titled, “Sex Among the Gods”?(“bath of worms Shawn, bath of worms! Somebody tie my hands down NOW”)?
That Temple Garments have been inferred to be able to protect people from physical harm? Don’t believe me? Watch the sixty minutes episode on Mormonism where LDS business mogul Bill Marriott tells Mike Wallace about his friend who got in a boating accident and was burned head to foot – but NOT where the garments were.
That Cain, like the three Nephites, is also still alive . . . in fact, LDS prophet Brigham Young claims to have come face to face with him . . . when Cain was upon horseback!
How about the fact your CHURCH! Built a multi-BILLION dollar Shopping Center and the Mormon prophet of God (like unto Moses) cried while cutting the red ribbon: “Let’s go shopping!” That Joseph said that a phony set of metal plates presented to him (which were known as the Kinderhook plates) were written by . . . Ham? Ham! Hammmm . . . . That as a means to influence a teenage girl to become one of his wives Joseph Smith told her that an angel with a flaming sword and would kill him if she didn’t submit.
Unusual Teachings
How about this little song taught to children: “The Golden plates lay hidden, Deep in the mountain side, Until God found one faithful In whom He could confide.” Mountainside? It was a grassy knoll at best. All to persuade . . . all through feelings.
Did you know that Joseph Smith said some funeral scrolls were the writings of “Abraham!” Abraham! (I mean, I’m pretty sure that the oldest biblical mss we have available to us are dated like 250 BC. And Joseph claimed that a traveling carnival guy brought him writings from Abraham, which would have been about 2050 BC! When do you say, huh?
Did you ever wonder about the Book of Mormon claiming that the brother of Jared built animal skin barges (described as being “tight light like unto dish”) which submarined themselves under the ocean to the Americas? And it had windows and were illuminated inside by glowing rocks? Really? That Smith translated the Book of Mormon through biblical-type instruments called the Urim and Thummim . . . but that he really translated the book of Mormon by a rock in his hat (beat) . . . but that he really translated the book of Mormon by stealing concepts from all sorts of sources and compiling them into his own fictional narrative.
That Mormon founder first rose to the level of a 33rd Degree Mason in lighting speed and then weeks later introduced much of the revised Mormon temple ceremony which clearly reflects Masonic influence. That Joseph Smith died with an occult related Jupiter Talisman in his pocket. That Joseph called the Garden of Eden (in Independence Missouri) “AdamOnDiahmon.” (Cinnamon toasted almonds) Or that Joseph Smith actually rewrote part of the Bible and added his own name to Genesis 50:30-33!
I’m NOT kidding.
What about all the reasons and attitudes toward black people over most of Mormon history? Again, American was prejudice too but this is supposed to be the true church of Jesus Christ? I mean, the Bible said nearly two thousand years ago that “There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female but all are one in Christ Jesus,” but you have so-called LDS apostles, as recently as the 1970’s, making the most racist remarks you can imagine?
You want a real look into the mindset of the LDS? How about another favorite children's song taught and beloved by the LDS but indicative of minds toward believing almost anything? “IIIIIIIIIII looked out the window and what did I see? Popcorn popping on the apricot tree. Spring has brought me such a nice surprise, Popcorn popping right before my eyes I can take an armful and make a treat A popcorn ball that would smell so sweat (listen) It wasn’t really so . . . But it seemed to be.”
Critique of Mormon Beliefs
“Apop corn popping on the Apricot tree!”
I’ve got an adult version I wrote:
IIIIIII looked out the window At Mormon history, Prophets and apostles lying with glee. The internet has brought me such a Nice surprise, Hundreds of deceptions and a church full of lies. I could shut my ears and just scream “it not true” Serve a full-time mission and go to BYU But none of it is real, And so it seems to me, I’ve been dealt a lie in Mormon History.
Questionable Church Practices
Then there’s the plates – 100, 150, 200 pounds based on the dimensions. And Joseph claiming to have run through the woods and dodging robbers for miles while having them in tow! What about the last great battle in the Book of Mormon, there on the Hill Cumorah – tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of deaths – all army men bearing steel swords and helmets and shields . . . and not a drop of tangible evidence.
They have long taught that Satan controls the water, that Bishops need to know what level of petting the youth of their wards have engaged in, and they have sixteen-year-old boys called “priests” performing what they call priesthood rituals. White and delightsome (a line relative to skin color in the BoM, the most correct book on the face of the earth) was changed to pure and delightsome in 1981. King David was not forgiven of his sins, an individual's blood must be shed for the forgiveness of some sins, prayers are said in Elizabethan English, marriage is called eternal (even though Jesus said marriage is for this world only) and families are told they can be together forever.
I have a family here on earth, They are so good to me (huh) I want
Issues with Worship and Beliefs
They use wonder bread and stagnant tap water for communion, call old men High priests, ask which church is true when (the only answer is none of them – Jesus is true) and believe you can get devils and demons to shake your hand . . . but you won’t feel it. There are lockers in their temples where attendees have suffered through two interviews to prove they are honest and worthy to be there, they tell young couples that spirit babies are waiting in heaven to come to their homes, and they demand ten percent of people's gross income before they will let them receive all that is required for them to become a god.
They speak of a Mother in Heaven but do not know her name (out of respect), they say God the Father’s real name is Elohim, Jesus name is Jehovah, and they promote their plan of non-Christian plan of salvation with songs like: I am a child of God. (not true, read John chapter 1 verse 12-14) And he has sent me here. (not true only Jesus came from above) Has given me an earthly home With parents kind and dear (who are they kidding!)
(Long beat)
Does any of this sound reasonable? Rational? Of God? Or does it sound like the work of men who really want to create religion?
Check the facts: www.utlm.org, www.hotm.tv
And with that, let’s open up the phone lines: (801)
SPOT
EMAILS
Hey Shaun, I come from the bloodline of the Levites from the twelve tribes of Israel. I know that you become the next new high priest by the death of your father. Since Jesus is still alive and is our new High Priest in the real Holy of Holy’s, How on earth do the Mormons think they have acquired this?
Thanks, Tom S.
Hallo Shawn! Jens from Sweden here. Thank you for a great program. I was a J.W for 8 years so i can understand the important job you have to do even if Heart of the matter have taken a new direction. It's too sad to see ex-JW and ex-Mormons just go out to this fallen world and reject God because of this false prophets. I see these things in my hometown and it breaks my heart. If you visit your daughter in Sweden maybe we can meet and talk some more and take a pizza or something. If you don't have any plans to visit Sweden I will come to Salt Lake some day if God wants. By Jens.
Hi Shawn,
I'm from Melbourne Australia and I would really like to buy a copy of your daughter's music 'In His Words', is there a way I can buy the albums online or download them instead of shipping over hard copies?
The Impact of Religious Exploration
I've been watching your campus sermons online and I really like the music at the end. It's so good listening to you preach verse by verse, I wish there was a church near me that would teach that way! Also, I'm a very passionate musician and I was really into what you were saying regarding music and worship in your last few Heart Of The Matter shows. Before you got to part three of music and worship, you decided to stop with comparing EVC with the Bible so I didn't get to hear your idea or solution to music and worship in church today. I was wondering if you could share with me what you may have said in part three and what the solutions are for music and worship in church today. At church recently I couldn't even raise my arms like I used to the music because I feel like in a sense I'm not worshiping properly that way. I went to another local church recently and they said that they have studied the scriptures on music and worship and they don't believe in using any instruments, only singing. It was so strange for me when I was there singing a cappella, but is that the right way? It's a very tough thing for me at the moment, I really need some clarity. I love live music and I'm a very competent guitarist, but I love doing things God's way better. Anything you might have to share that might give me a bit of clarity regarding this would be so appreciated. God Bless
Hayden
Questioning Faith and Scripture
From: Barry
Subject: My transition to atheism
Hi Shawn, I have always been a fan of you and your show. You are clearly sincere in your efforts. I was a Christian for most of my life. I don’t mean to say this to upset you, but you were instrumental in me arriving at the position of atheism. As I watched your shows and followed your example of fearlessly and fairly scrutinizing other people's religions, I eventually had no choice but to apply the same to my own faith (Christianity). You see, for our arguments to work, we have to start with the presupposition that the Bible is the only accurate and true doctrine, and then go from there. But that’s not very logical or fair. I had to stop ignoring the hard questions that I had always had, but somehow suppressed. Questions like:
Why did God leave innocent beings (Adam/Eve) with no knowledge of good and evil in close proximity to a tree that would cause them to surely die? Along with the cleverest of all the wild beasts? That seems much like an irresponsible parent leaving a toddler with an opened bottle of Draino and a curly straw! 🙂
Why does God condone slavery? Or order the slaughter of so many, including women and children?
Why does Jesus give us impractical and potentially harmful advice like do not worry about tomorrow or do not sow or reap or store away in barns when so many starve to death daily?
Why does the story of Jesus share so many common attributes with other, older deities? Like being born of a virgin, being half man half god, dying and resurrecting, etc?
Why does the original book of Matthew not mention a virgin birth or a resurrection? (the earliest writings end at the tomb and resurrection and virgin birth was added later)
Why does God contradict himself so often with clear rules like thou shalt not kill followed by orders to kill many?
Why would a good God kill or order killing, and why would an omnipotent god need us to do the killing for him?
Finding Peace in Truth
The questions go on and on and I am no longer satisfied with the standard apologetics for these questions. I think you are a great guy and have no doubts about the sincerity unlike many TV preachers. So I care about you and wish you only the best. I have found a peace and freedom in truth REAL truth, and I now value this life much more than ever. I would much rather have the truth than to be driven by lies, no matter how comforting they may feel.
I have no use for prayer these days, so I can only hope the time will come where you apply the same just scrutiny to Christianity as you do to every other myth, and I will cheer for you the day you can comfortably toss your Bible in the same pile with all the other false doctrine. Yes, you will lose eternal life and that may smart a bit but then you will
Moving Beyond Dependence
Understand that you never had it begin with and will be able to move beyond the perpetual adolescence that dependence on a slave/master Father/child relationship allows.
Always your brother,
Barry Corrie
