Live from the Mecca of Mormonism

– Salt Lake City Utah – This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. – Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity . . . Face to Face Show 2 Doug Bundy sets the stage January 14th 2014

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

We thank God for the opportunity to speak of Him and pray for His blessings upon each and every one of you. Coming this March 1st we are launching our own 24/7 television Network on local broadcast television KPDR 19.3. We are doing everything we can to make this a station people can trust as we are working very hard to bring in the best teachers, apologists, and Christian programming. Take a look. RUN SPOT HERE Please keep us in prayer – that we will have His hand on this endeavor, and that it will not only bear fruit, but that we will transition to cable, dish and direct television venues.

Addressing Calvinism

RUN SPOT HERE PLEASE Got an email from Dr. James White informing us that he addressed some of my issues with Five Point Calvinism on his radio program out of Arizona. I have not (and will not listen to it) as I do not watch or listen to anything I am involved with in the media (with the exception of my interview with John Dehlin which I watched in total.)

We have had a number of people contact us and report on Brother White’s assessments of my position and apparently my competence and person. I’m sorry to hear this. I want Brother White to know I love Him, appreciate what He does for the King, and pray He continues to go and move as He is lead. He must be an extremely intelligent man, but more importantly he is a man of faith.

We try VERY hard not to criticize brothers or sisters by name here on the show. Yes, I have failed in this a time or two in the past with Hinny Binn and Ole Josteen, but I am learning and I refuse to “fight fire with fire” in the case of brother White. Listen closely – please – I do not care if believers want to embrace Calvinism – even hyper Calvinism. I know MANY tremendous Christians who do and they are greater men and women of faith then I will ever be.

But from my perspective (which is admittedly limited) the position is man-made and fails to truly represent God as sovereign, all-knowing, all love, and desiring that all would be saved. Perhaps more importantly (to our purposes here on Heart of the Matter) the premise is absolutely anathematic to the LDS mind and to reaching them. I haven’t refused Calvinism because of this fact, but it doesn’t hurt in our efforts to bringing LDS people to truth.

LDS Beliefs and Perspectives

Hope this makes some sense.

Within Mormonism there tends to be a number of factious categories among the active members. First there are the tow-the-party line faithful who ardently cling to whatever has generally been said or believed by LDS leaders. These types often regurgitate LDS ideas unapologetically and without any variance from the party line. Then there are “challengers” to the party line who, while faithful members, tend to try and see outside the LDS box and seek to offer possible alternatives to some of the idiocy passed down among the blind and deaf faithful. And then there is a general group of LDS souls who know little about the faith, don’t really care about anything in the faith (in terms of history and doctrine), and just like being part of the Mormon machine because of it values, order, and good clean fun.

When I was LDS there was, among many other things, the ardently held belief that Jesus was born on April 6th. This exact date originated from a wide-spread misreading of the introduction found in the Doctrine and Covenants section 20. Interestingly enough, the misunderstanding what even propagated and touted by even LDS leaders over the years. I mean even the respected LDS Apostle James Talmage, author of the very popular LDS book, “Jesus the Christ,” said in this very publication (published in 1915): "We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1."

Even to this day April 6th 1 BC was touted by the LDS mindless – myself included when I was active some twelve years ago. Over the years several “LDS challengers” have questioned the date. These included noteworthy names like J. Reuben Clarke and LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, who both postulated that the Lord was born sometime in December in 5 B.C.

Authority in Early Mormonism

Finally the rest of the LDS faithful remain obliviously indifferent to the dating at all. My point in bringing this up is to illustrate several things: First, the LDS, especially in the early days, were quick to “pronounce and pounce” authoritatively on all sorts of subjects that were frankly outside their realm of knowledge – but they got away with it by hiding under the umbrella of having the authority to receive “revelation” on matters like this.

This is why Smith got away with teaching polygamy as a biblical tenet, Young got away with teaching Adam was God, and a host of other LDS leaders got away with spouting all sorts of aberrant ideas relative to black people, blood atonement, Cain, the Flood, and on and on and on. It was truly both a sign, and a time, of uncontested “religion building.”

I also find it interesting how myths and opinions within Mormonism can become so “pervasive and persuasive” that their highly esteemed (and supposed) Apostles (like Talmage) can be taken in too. Additionally, it is amazing how when new, superior information (or alternative voices) are presented few LDS active seem to care – the myth, the party line, is what is desired to be true hold ground – all because the new counter information suggests that the church (and its leaders) of the past were wrong! That’s just too big of a disconnect for a people who believe in following the prophet.

When was Jesus born? No idea. Again, within the body there are some excellent ideas and notions and research, but it’s not really important, is it? Maybe that is what I am really trying to say – that maybe Mormonism is beginning to see it can’t just say whatever it wants anymore . . . people are just too smart, and information is just too available, for them to get away with it any longer. Thank God.

Jesus' True Teachings

You know, when Jesus walked the earth, I believe that His ability to communicate openly (during His ministry years) was hindered by the fact that He had to speak unadulterated truth. The reason for this is His Words would have to have application to the past, the present, and the future – and had to be true in each epoch of time. For this reason the disciples would often ask Him a question but His response could sound esoteric. The point is, when Jesus spoke, it was true. What He said was true.

Jesus' Parables

In Matthew 13 Jesus had been teaching in parables, a form of speech that enabled Him to say things that could reach out and communicate to all audiences and times. At verse 53 we read:

“And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. 54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them:

“A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house.”

Marks account puts it this way:

Mark 6:4 “But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.”

Is this a true statement? Of course it is. Family and friends and neighbors never revere a TRUE “holy teacher” when he returns to the hood. To them, Jeremiah is still just Jerry and Thomas is still old snot-nosed Tommy. Jesus words were true and applicable across time and the globe . . . except for within Mormonism. Only in Mormonism is their prophet, locally raised and grown, honored in the same towns and cities from which he’s hailed. In the face of this, either Jesus was wrong, or maybe the LDS version of a prophet has never been a prophet at all?

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

Well folks, we have long maintained that the only LDS people we would have on Heart of the Matter are official representatives. This has been an actual long-standing policy because to bring a non-official LDS official

Interview with Brother Doug Bundy

On the show subjects us to having to hear them spin all sorts of non-official, subjective garbage in the name of protecting the Church. We are breaking our policy tonight on a number of accounts. First, it feels good to break policy every now and again, doesn’t it? But more importantly, our guest tonight – from what I have seen and from what I have been told by respected sources, tells it as it is. I don’t personally care what someone believes or worships as long as they are honest in the representation – and I have been assured that we will get an honest representation from our guest tonight, Brother Doug Bundy.

(Welcome Doug)

Brother Doug Bundy's Background

Now before we get to our series of open-ended questions for you Doug, let me share your history and background in Mormonism with our audience. Doug was born and raised in Colorado, attended several churches with friends, joined none of them, went into the military, laughed at Mormonism when he heard of it but then found himself stationed in Utah. After being discharged Doug enrolled at Weber State, met several LDS people, attended some meetings, and was challenged by his wife of forty four years to essentially read the BOM. He did, decided to climb a mountain in a “search, ponder, and pray,” moment, and after completing the arduous journey to the top peak, realized Mormonism was for him, and that he had a duty and privilege to be baptized following the example the Savior and the prophets had set.

He was baptized July 31st 1965, served a mission to Chile, and once Barbara returned from her mission, they wed. They are the parents of six children and seventeen grandchildren all living in and around Layton, Utah. Doug has been a high priest since 1970 and has served in several LDS bishoprics. He has also been a teacher many times and has served a number of LDS missions, the most recent to Puerto Rico. Doug has never been on a stake High council or a Bishop of a ward. Doug, welcome.

Exploring Faith and Beliefs

What I would like to do tonight is ask you some questions about Mormonism, your faith, and views on Christianity. I think I know what your response will be to the majority of the questions but I am asking them of you so that our audience can benefit from some straight talk from a true Latter-day Saint. Would that be okay?

Additionally, I may ask you follow-up questions (for clarifications sake) on the topic at hand but I will not debate or challenge what you say here tonight. You have the opportunity right now to stand before God (and everyone that will ever watch this program in the future) and to really tell us like it is. Alright?

Open-Ended Questions

Question number one:

• As an active Latter-day Saint what is the most correct scriptural book on the face of the earth today, not only according to you, Doug, but also according to the general consensus of the LDS church faithful?

RESPONSE

• Do you believe that the BOM will bring a person closer to God than the Bible? • Why?

• What do you (honestly) think of the Bible?

• What do you think other LDS people generally think of the Bible?

• Is the Bible sufficient in providing all a person needs to understand salvation and/ or exaltation?

• What does a person (who is Christian) miss in rejecting the BOM?

• Can a person truly be considered a Christian who rejects the BOM?

• (Shawn, give background on the Bible, then ask) “How do you know the BOM is authentically the word of God?

• Is there ANY authenticated material proofs for the BOM and its claims?

• What about the other books of LDS scripture? Are they comparable to the BOM? Do you view them as superior to the Bible?

• Do you hold the Pearl of Great Price and all of the D&C up as divinely inspired?

• Even LDS scholars agree that the Doctrine and Covenants 132 speaks openly about the eternal principle of plural marriage. What do you think of the Principle (is it an eternal principle) and how does the generally informed LDS faithful view plural marriage as a future practice in the heavens?

• We can’t talk about the BOM without discussing skin color. You joined the church in 65. Mark Peterson and McConkie and McKay and Lee were really rolling around at that time spouting all sorts of garbage. Is skin tone indicative of pre-existent choice in your opinion?

Thank Doug.