Heart of the Matter

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism – Salt Lake City Utah – This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. – Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity . . . Face to Face
Show 3 378 Doug Bundy Part II
January 21st 2014

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

We thank God for the opportunity to speak of Him and pray for His blessings upon each and every one of you.

Last week we broke policy and had our first active non-official representative of the LDS church come on Heart of the Matter – and it was quite fun. His name – Doug Bundy – and instead of putting a bunch of announcements and things in front of his promised return, let’s get right back to where we left off with Brother Bundy.

Doug Welcome.

Questions About Mormon Doctrine

Now, before we get back to the list of questions I had prepared for you last week, I’d like to ask a few follow-up questions to things you said last week (if that would be okay?) First of all, you showed some real discomfort (maybe even distain) for my questions about skin color and Mormonism. When questioned further you noted that as a convert you never understood or agreed with the doctrinal teachings about skin color being related to pre-mortal existence faithfulness. I took from this that you have always (as convert to Mormonism) seen people of all colors as absolute equals and it really troubled you when blacks were excluded from the priesthood because they of the color of their skin. Would you say this assessment is correct?

What I want to know is while you apparently have a heart for the prejudice extended toward people of color, you openly accept and embrace the notion of plural marriage? Don’t you see women entering into a marriage where the husband’s body is shared with other woman as much of an injustice as racism?

Okay, then we left off with talking about the LDS notion of a pre-mortal existence. Now in the Bible (John 8) Jesus said to the Jewish leaders around Him:

“I am from above, you are from beneath; you are of this world, I am not of this world,” which in my opinion clearly shows that the only person to ever walk the face of this earth (who came from above) was Jesus. The rest of us came from the clay. How do you explain these words?

Alright . . .

Discussing Marriage

I want to talk about marriage but first I need to ask you a point-blank question, Doug. It’s a yes or no question, Doug. Are you willing?

“Does Mormonism teach, yes or no, that God was once a man and that men (on this earth) can progress to becoming a god? Yes or no

Okay, LET’S TALK ABOUT MARRIAGE

A big subject in Mormonism. In fact if I recall correctly LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie said the choice of who a person marries is THE most important decision a person can make in this life. Plainly tell us, according to Mormon doctrine, does a person need to be married in an LDS temple to become a God – yes or no?

Now, how do you rationalize this teaching with the fact that Jesus said, “the children of this world marry and are given in marriage,” and when the Sadducees sought to trap him in a hypothetical situation about marriage He said, “there is no marriage in heaven nor are they given in marriage.” Joseph said differently. Who was right?

Salvation in Mormonism

Let’s talk about SALVATION

• The LDS Missionaries are frequently heard today saying that Mormonism teaches that “men are saved by Grace.” Yet there is an Article of Faith that says:

“All mankind MAY be saved BY obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

• Could you explain what being saved means from an LDS perspective?

• Doug, please tell the audience, from a Mormon perspective what is required for a person to be saved? Now when I say saved, I mean to live with God the Father after this life is over?

Temple endowments? Priesthood? Sealed in marriage?

Understanding Priesthood

LET’s TALK ABOUT PRIESTHOOD

• In the bio you sent to me you described yourself as a High Priest in the LDS church (since 1970). Can you tell us a little bit about this title?
• Now, to a Christian, the book of Hebrews talks an awful lot about Christ being our High Priest, who, similar to the singular High Priest of the Levitical Priesthood, Jesus now has entered into the Holy of Holies once and for all on our behalf. Being a High Priest do you see Jesus as your personal high priest too?

Another topic . .

Modern Prophets

• In your email to me you described a mountain hike you took in 1965. It was a very vivid description – clear and articulate. Did it really happen the way you wrote it? • As a follow up, Joseph Smith claims to have been visited by God in a number of different ways and several varied accounts – why so many accounts of something SO spectacular that supposedly happened to him?

Let’s talk about modern prophets. • Hebrews 1:1-3 says: “God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds.” If God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son, what’s up with the LDS modern prophets, like Thomas Monson?

• Do you view Thomas Monson as a prophet like unto Moses? • So you believe that He has a special “dispensation” (or access to God) that other members don’t? • Do you think Thomas Monson has ever seen Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ? • What about the twelve apostles today? Are they special witnesses the way Peter James and John were?

(You realize that what made the apostles of Jesus day special is they performed miracles, they had first hand witness of His resurrection, they wrote of this witness and then most of them died for their witness?)

LDS Temple Practices

Let’s go back to temples for a second.

• I’m sure you are familiar with the practices of FreeMasonry and the temple rites and dress and origins. Do you find it odd that Joseph was first a freemason before introducing the modern refined LDS endowment in Nauvoo? • Does a person have to receive what Mormons do in their temples to enter God’s presence?

• Mormonism says men are born children of God. You actually sing: • I am a child of God and He has sent me here,” right?

I want you to read the passage that comes up on the screen and explain it to us relative to the LDS doctrine that everyone is a son (or daughter of God) at birth.

Verse 11 is speaking of Jesus and says (Doug)

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Financial Aspects and Commitment in LDS

Would it bother you to know that the LDS leadership at the top are made quite wealthy when assuming apostleship or prophethood?

Have you ever wondered about the connection between entering the temple to receive your endowments and having to pay tithing?

As a typical active latter-day Saint what is your opinion of City Creek Mall?

• Prophet shouting “Let’s go shopping!” • The salacious downtown/bus Ads • The cost? • The stores

Let’s talk about the Word of Wisdom as it relates to worthiness and temple attendance.

• Jesus said “it is not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.”

Speak to this relative to the LDS word of Wisdom?

-Will a man miss heaven for drinking coffee everyday of his adult life? How about diet coke?

Salvation and Faith

Some final thoughts

• Is faith in Jesus enough for salvation? If not what else is required? • What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? • Are only Mormon’s (and those who receive Mormonism’s rituals posthumously) going to live with Heavenly Father after this life?

• Would salvation (living with Heavenly Father be possible) without the work of Joseph Smith?

• Is Joseph Smith now mingling with gods?

• Do you believe Joseph Smith is a god?

• Will men have to pass by Joseph Smith to enter into heaven?

• The LDS have a lot of “commandments.” Are you familiar with what the New Testament says the commandments are for Christians?

1John 3:22-23 “And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”

• Why is your “testimony” superior to the testimony of someone who believes in Buddha or Islam?

• Is there anything that could crush your testimony of Mormonism? A fact? Lack of facts? What if your prophet announced that the facts of the faith have been fraudulent?

Doug, I absolutely renounce all LDS temple activities, I

Renunciation of LDS Beliefs

I renounce the LDS claims on a priesthood, I renounce the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. While I have no idea of their standing with God, I renounce the LDS Prophets and Apostles as religious charlatans, and I will never receive Joseph Smith (here or hereafter) as having anything to do with my eternal life – ever. However, I will share and testify of Jesus Christ as my Savior and King til my dying breath.

In your opinion, what is my fate? In the opinions of LDS doctrine, what is my fate?

Word Associations

Let’s wrap the show up with some word associations – they’re fun. Ready? Say the first thing that comes to your mind AS A LATTER-DAY SAINT:

Urim and Thummim
Joseph Smith
Sacrament meeting
Women
Section 132
Forgiveness
Elders of Israel
Brigham Young
Blacks and the priesthood
Kinderhook
American Government
SinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace.
Worthiness
Lamanites
Eternal life
Gods (plural)
Temples
Sandra Tanner
Perfection
Tattoos

Final Quick Questions

Are you saved, Doug, (in the sense of living with Heavenly Father after this life)?
Do you have eternal life?
Are you going to become a God?

Closing Remarks

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

• Wrap up –

Shawn: “Doug, I would like for you to take no more than two minutes and share your testimony for us. You will have the last word here. But before you do I want to share mine with you.

I want you (and anyone listening) to know that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son – Jesus Christ – who once and for all, on the cross, saved this world. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Nothing more, nothing less but faith in Him and His finished work.

That’s all I have Doug. Go.

GRAPHIC

GRAPHIC FOR DOUG TO READ

GRAPHIC FOR DOUG