Faith without religion.
Unveiling the Spiritual Truths of Second Corinthians
maturity, wisdom, spirit
In a recent discussion on 2 Corinthians, Shawn and Delaney delved into the complexities of spiritual wisdom as described by Paul. They explored the distinction between worldly wisdom and the wisdom that comes from mature believers, emphasizing that the latter is not rooted in the transient knowledge of this world. Shawn shared a personal reflection on how he often approaches God through worldly wisdom, acknowledging that while it might not always be ideal, it’s a step towards spiritual growth.
The conversation also touched on the “mystery of God,” which Paul later clarifies in Galatians as God’s plan to bring salvation to the entire world through Jesus, a revelation that was initially hidden. This idea challenges certain religious beliefs, such as those held by the LDS Church, about the knowledge of God’s plan from the beginning of time.
Shawn and Delaney further discussed the role of the Spirit in understanding God’s thoughts, highlighting that true comprehension of spiritual truths comes not from human wisdom but from the Spirit itself. They noted that those who are not spiritually inclined often find these truths foolish, as they lack the spiritual insight to grasp them.
The discussion also ventured into the nature of love, particularly agape love, which transcends familial, romantic, and friendship love. This form of love, as taught by Jesus, is about turning the other cheek and living with a higher understanding of love that is often misunderstood by the world.
As they wrapped up, Shawn and Delaney pondered the idea that other forms of art and expression might also carry the Spirit’s influence, suggesting that spiritual truths can be found beyond the Bible. This opened up a broader conversation about the ways in which the Spirit might communicate with us through various mediums, a topic they plan to explore further in future discussions.
Podcast Transcript:
I don’t get the Bible in second
Corinthians I’m Sean this is Delaney hey
yeah continuing chapter two I can’t talk
today
sorry okay um we were talking about
verses like six and seven he was Paul
was talking about there being such thing
as a mature believer we were talking
about that in the last episode but he
says
um first of all he identifies also not
just that there are mature Believers but
that mature Believers have not the kind
of wisdom that belongs to this world or
the rulers of this world who are soon
forgotten um which is just really
important for me because I I get
to God often through the wisdom of the
world like I love him for through that
line of thinking sometimes and it it
isn’t always good no but it’s a step in
the right direction yeah that’s the
that’s the reason that you’re saved by
grace you might be pursuing him through
the wisdom of the world he meets you
where you are and he brings you along so
that’s my point from the last one yeah
okay um and
then so I put two and two together here
that he’s
know the wisdom we speak of is the
mystery of God his plan that was
previously hidden also before I keep
going mystery it keep keep the mystery
of God I’ll tell you what it is and it’s
not found here he doesn’t tell you uh
the mystery of God he summarizes it
later in Galatians I think and all it is
is this that God was going to bring uh
Salvation to the whole world through his
son okay the Jews thought it was just
them but the mystery of God that he kept
hidden kind of was it’s going to be the
whole gig it’s G who kept hidden Paul or
God no God did he kept it hidden just to
let you know the LDS think that the uh
whole truth of God was known in the
Garden of Eden and was known by
everybody the whole way that totally
counters what they believe in that sense
yeah it was hidden by God the the LDS
think that Adam and Eve knew about
Mormonism oh yeah they knew about the
whole Plan of Salvation yeah I don’t
even know what they mean by Plan of
Salvation oh it’s all the Mormons gospel
they have a different gospel um they
believe in the gospel Christians believe
in but they have another one that adds a
whole they call their Church system the
gospel oh they came to know the gospel
what does it mean it means going to the
temple it means all of that’s the gospel
to them yeah like if they’re baptized
into the church they’ve accepted all the
syst the system systems yeah
um but we love you guys truly hard the
matter may do matter May 7th 8:00
p.m. um no the Shameless
pug I hate Shameless pugs oh my gosh
Shameless pug that is so good we’re only
having we need a mascot called Shameless
pug she’s becoming more like me every
minute look at a stuffed
animal that is so funny um okay I just
in here the two and two that I put
together was that he distinguishes
maturity and wisdom that is not of this
world
from plain from
humility wait what how did I write
this humility is the plan or the mystery
of God that is
a I’m not understanding what I wrote
down it’s okay sorry his plan that was
previously hidden even though he made it
for an ultimate Glory before the world
began but the rulers of this world have
not understood it if they had they would
have not have crucified the Lord Jesus
he’s talking about the Jews there by the
way what the rulers of that world wow
crucified Jesus he’s talking about the
Jews he’s talking about the Old
Testament the rulers of the world they
have not understood it if they had they
would have not have crucified the Lord
yeah so this world that is when he’s
talking
about not the kind of wisdom that
belongs to this world or the rulers of
this world he’s talking about Jewish
Judaism Judaism and what it had become
that’s contextual now in our day we read
it we might think of the whole world as
a principle like worldly with yeah and
but TR truly what he’s talking about is
them oh well it kind of is for us the
same like religion or the world they’re
all kind of of the same and you just
discovered how how we use the Bible
principally rather than literally
because literally he is contextually
talking about the
Jews opens your eyes to context doesn’t
it
yeah I don’t know why I wrote that
but it’s okay distinguishes
maturity we’ll move on I remember that
being a good point when I wrote it down
I’m sorry okay um so verse 10 keeps
going Oh but before that sorry he but
the rulers of the world have not
understood it they would have crucified
him that’s what the scriptures mean when
they say no eye has seen no ear has
heard no mind has imagined what God has
prepared for those who love him and that
is Isaiah
64
which does that like confirm your thing
that he’s talking about the Jews when
he’s saying it helps confirm it yeah it
brings in more context uh just to let
you know let’s just cover this really
quickly now Paul will use the Old
Testament to his own Advantage he will
twist the Old Testament could be
speaking of something in a certain
context he’ll take it and he’ll use it
to his own Advantage outside of that
context does seems sketch it does seem
sketch but remember we’re talking about
the concept we talked about in the last
show how to use things to teach yeah and
that’s what he does Bart ER who’s one of
the great uh critics of Christianity who
used to be quote unquote a Christian um
and he’s a scholar and he knows the New
Testament really well he criticizes Paul
he says this wasn’t this was just him
but and Matthew we read the same thing
the problem is we aren’t hearing all the
all the information we’re just seeing
what Paul is doing in that one space and
you say it’s not even contextual if he’s
led by the spirit he has he can do that
and that brings Liberty in teaching and
how we teach and how we reach and Paul
does it yeah so sorry it’s kind of a
side issue but go ahead no It’s Tricky
very tricky a hard thing
to I could see that being a reason why a
scholar doesn’t
believe
but so verse 10 but it was to us that
God revealed these things by his spirit
for his Spirit searches out everything
thing and shows us God’s deep
secrets and that just answered what we
were talking about just one second
before when the spirit is moving it
gives you the Liberty to use principles
to teach they don’t have to be you know
supported exactly by the scripture you
can use them and so when you’re teaching
somebody in this day and age about
something I can borrow from what Paul
says Paul might have meant it in a
different way then but I use it as a
principle to help teach uh the
underlying truth of it all and people
what biblicists will do is they’ll say
but that’s not what Paul meant when he
wrote it that’s fine I get that but if
you are going by the spirit which is the
next thing he says it teaches you the
spirit that was behind what was
originally said and the spirit that was
behind what Paul and how Paul used it
and you have the same access through
that Spirit to use it to your audience
that’s how the spirit Works versus being
a scholar and making everything fit you
know yeah
yeah I like at one point I would argue
that the Bible having not read it very
much was valid because
of the
consistencies but it seems like the more
I read read it the less I understand it
to be consistent like it’s consistent I
understand but like there are a lot of
ways to argue that it’s like not endless
and I could I can argue for it and what
it does in my own life by reading it but
there are definitely people that read it
and don’t have that same result in their
life so how would you defend the Bible I
would say and that’s why we have the
approach we have yeah we’ve seen all
this yeah and so what we have is people
like Bart man yeah he’s interpreting it
from a scholarly perspective John D’s
having all these Scholars phds coming on
and disputing the Bible and they don’t
get that the Bible is a spiritual map
it’s not a book of mus it is not perfect
it does not have exact and the problem
is men have taken it and they’ve said
it’s perfect and when they did that it
made men divide because they all have
different opinions on it and they can
prove different things it’s not what God
gave us the word is his son the word is
not the written thing so when you’re
reading this in the same spirit that
Paul uh gave it you will tap into the
spiritual meaning in your subjective
life and how you see it and believe it
depending on your education your
spiritual maturity so we have have all
these factors coming in on how to
interpret and it’s really subjectively
driven by the person and and the spirit
within them when you go out into a world
where people aren’t spiritually inclined
they will debate endless things with you
because they don’t they don’t tap into
that same thing and they’ll say oh
Spirit that’s not true and they want to
make it material they want to make it
scholarly and it’s not that it is
understood only through the spirit
that’s why we say the spirit is primary
because its fruit is love love we always
make the spirit and its fruit primary
and when you are producing that kind of
love through your interpretation of the
Bible you know your interpretation is
okay because it’s not producing
non-l the world doesn’t get that they
want all four Doctrine they want
everything perfect they want scholarly
and all of this is Paul’s saying I
didn’t go about it this way I will
forever not understand that’s not true
how to defend that that the spirit’s
fruit is Love without using the Bible
that the person that you’re talking to
doesn’t believe
anyway you can’t yeah so don’t try okay
yeah it just you can’t you can’t defend
it like it it’s a
it’s very
simple it’s almost too simple that like
love is the answer but like and the love
word do understand it yeah like a yeah
like a child who doesn’t even know who
God is knows about showing love
to their friend when they love or I
don’t know like love is like a thing
that you understand without knowledge
like not like not intelligent people can
understand love so it is something that
can
be you can argue it without the Bible
say the spirit leads to love you can to
a certain point yeah but it’s like also
you making it up you can’t explain it in
terms of Agape you can explain love in
terms of family love romantic love
friendship love felos love all these
types of love the world gets all those
right but when it comes to Agape that’s
why the Bible helps you understand what
that really is and it’s because of how
Jesus showed how to live as a human
being with agape and what did he say
turn the other cheek you know someone
can say I love my family but someone
hits them they’re going to hit him back
so you have this elevated form of love
that is learned in and through this by
the spirit now you don’t have to read
this to have it there are people who
have agape and they’re of different
religions that’s why I say we don’t need
to have this in place for them to
understand they know it
like was Agape coined by the Bible it
was coined by the Greeks yeah it was an
existing it was something that people
came up with before Jesus’s time oh yeah
so it is a thing
that could be known outside the Bible
yes the Greeks understood it okay
yeah the question weird to think about
could they practice it and did they did
they understand it and practice it the
way he taught it the Greeks taught a lot
of things that uh you could say Jesus
hijacked I think that it’s tapped into
the truth in certain ways and he and
yeah you’re right on that one yeah yeah
okay
so what did you just say damn it
um I’m
lost you had such a good point okay well
let’s keep going
okay um that’s the problem with when you
get these Epistles every verse creates a
conversation my gosh I could talk this
is I
mean chapters three and four and five it
gets more like I could talk about it
forever with you just wait maybe I
should we get to chapter 13 we get to
chapter 15 oh shoot
boom
um no one can know the person’s okay so
for his Spirit searches out everything
shows us God’s deep Secrets no one can
know a person’s thoughts except that
person’s own Spirit which is and no one
can know God’s thoughts except God’s Own
Spirit which is so strange to me like
our thoughts are distinct from our
spirit and God’s thoughts are distinct
from his
spirit it’s by his spirit that we know
his thoughts yeah you don’t know his
thoughts by your flesh or your human
Spirit you don’t know it you think you
do and that’s what the world thinks when
you when I listen to a podcast people go
well I think well I I’m just like shut
up you know who cares what you think
what can you prove I know you got to go
back to the Bible uh what can you prove
God thinks and then do you choose to
believe that or not so what you better
way it says I believe God thinks but
when people say well I think I just shut
my ears because I don’t care everyone
has an
opinion to know the spirit to know God
you got to have his Spirit that’s what
Paul’s trying to make clear to know
God’s thoughts you have to have his
Spirit yeah the natural human being
cannot know God
cannot no one can know and no one can
know God’s thoughts except God’s Own
spirit and we have received God’s spirit
not the world spirit so that we can know
the wonderful things God has freely
given us keep going when we tell you
these
things we do not use words that come
from Human wisdom instead we speak words
given to us by the spirit using the
spirit’s words to explain spiritual
truths boom wow but people who aren’t
spiritual can’t receive these truths in
God’s spirit it’s all sounds foolish to
them they can’t understand it for only
those who are spiritual can understand
what the spirit means that’s right so
they look at you like this huh yeah and
you give them the best stuff and they’re
like and it’s not through their logic
it’s not through their scholarship it’s
not through their strength it’s not
through anything that they have it’s
have they submitted to seeking God
searched his wisdom and allowed his
Spirit to then guide them so to argue
with non Believers about points that are
known by the spirit is so useless it’s
like talking to a dog talking to a dog
about math you know it’s no difference
and I’m not being dismissive people of
the world Jesus says are smarter than
the people of the he of the Kingdom it’s
strange because it I start to get a
little calvinist here because it seems
like the
spirit moves where it
wants it comes into people
and that’s when they start to be able to
see things like we can’t we don’t have
much control of when that happens we can
try we have no control of it yeah but
it’s not calvinist strange yeah remember
there’s a two-way street with God
calvinist preach a one-way Street he
points that’s it you have no choice but
if you go back to the Garden of Ed oh he
can point but we can choose not to take
it no when he points you can’t even
choose not to take it but I mean in
reality like the opposite of that is
because what we’re just saying is it he
does Point like that we’re identifying
that the spirit like people can read the
Bible not have the spirit yeah and
that’s the spirit’s choice that they
don’t have it sort of like perhaps yeah
like it could be that the Spirit came to
them and they rejected it but the
difference from calvinist is that they
could reject it like yeah calvinist say
when God points that’s it you will
accept it so PE so
they like the difference between this is
that in this perspective of the great
news the spirit could point someone
could reject it and calvinist would say
the spirit never pointed that’s the
argument that’s a big argument also just
to let you know the scripture
contextually it’s not easy to
immediately see shows God spirit is
calling to all all the time all the time
okay but it’s all the all yeah it’s not
the calvinist selective a few the then
it might have been few but today it’s
everybody is having that
Spirit constantly call to them but we on
the reciprocal of that are saying no you
know you know and we and it’s not like a
demonstrative I must oh wow I had this
I’ve Got to Believe it is subtle and
it’s according to free will he doesn’t
give you things and say I’m going to
overpower you and force you he’s he’s a
loving God he loves Freedom so he sends
his Spirit to everybody calling there
are seven things the scripture points
out that he is constantly calling to
everybody in the world to know him and
the most of the world says no I I’m not
interested I’ve got a life here right
that’s that’s contextual scripture and
that’s how you refute
Calvinism
yeah
um okay we’re at 20 minutes that wraps
up the chapter too
but I wanted to ask earlier I remembered
the question and you were talking about
we’re talking about the Bible proving
sort of proving it to people who don’t
don’t even have the things that you’re
talking about they don’t have the spirit
and then we’re also saying that the
Bible is inconsistent in itself so
itself isn’t something that you can be
like this happened and this happened and
that’s why I believe in the Bible like
it’s a spiritual thing yes and it makes
me think that there might be other
things books artworks music things that
the spirit that are the spirits they
might have their own
spirits that affect you in the same way
that the spirit of the Bible would and I
think you’ve taught on that like there
are other gods there are other Spirits
or something but are there other things
that are the spirits God’s
spirits that aren’t the Bible that we
can learn him through you get what I’m
saying why are you using spirits in the
plural as the first question Spirits as
possessive like it’s the spirit the
spirits okay
yeah oh boy do you know what I’m saying
can we open up the next that’s a large
conversation yeah let’s start again I’m
doing my
job all right um watch the next one
because it’s gonna be good yeah see you
