Faith without religion.
Navigating Manipulation vs. Love in Mature Belief
manipulation, maturity, love
In a recent episode of “I Don’t Get the Bible,” Shawn McCraney and his daughter Delaney delve into the complexities of First Corinthians, Chapter 2. The discussion centers around the Apostle Paul’s approach to communicating with the Corinthians, emphasizing simplicity and reliance on the Holy Spirit rather than lofty words or persuasive wisdom. Delaney raises an intriguing point about whether Paul’s method could be seen as manipulative, but Shawn clarifies that it’s more about adapting to the audience’s level of understanding, much like how one would communicate differently with a child versus an adult.
The conversation also touches on the nature of love and manipulation, with Shawn explaining that true love seeks the benefit of others, while manipulation often serves the manipulator’s interests. They explore the idea that God’s love meets individuals where they are, whether in the depths of despair or the heights of intellectualism, and how this principle is reflected in Paul’s teachings.
As they continue, the discussion shifts to the concept of mature believers and the isolation that can accompany spiritual growth. Shawn shares insights on the rewards of spiritual maturity, emphasizing the liberation that comes from unconditional love. Delaney reflects on the challenges of relating to others who may not share the same spiritual focus, highlighting the importance of understanding and accepting different paths.
The episode concludes with a thought-provoking dialogue on the nature of Christianity, contrasting it with Eastern philosophies like Buddhism. Shawn emphasizes that Christianity encourages individuals to embrace their true selves while submitting to God’s will, rather than losing oneself entirely. This perspective offers a lifelong journey of growth and service, rooted in love and personal responsibility.
Overall, the episode provides a rich exploration of biblical principles, personal growth, and the transformative power of love, inviting listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys.
Podcast Transcript:
hey welcome to I don’t get the Bible I’m
sha mccraine this is Delaney mccraine my
youngest daughter and uh after years of
different uh religious experiences and I
mean education uh Delaney still hasn’t
gotten the Bible and so we have we have
decided to sit down and figure out what
this thing says and we’re in First
Corinthians chapter 2 chapter
2 okay
um Paul is speaking to Corinthians yeah
and he the first verse
is in previous chapters I have maybe
synthesized things and I feel like
Corinthians I’m starting to get into
this pattern where I have like blocks of
a couple verses that I will ask you
questions about rather than single
verses except this first verse Paul
tells the people that he
intentionally didn’t use use lofty words
and impressive wisdom to tell God’s
secret plan that’s how it describes it
but I’m
thinking secret
plan also means testimony in
other oh I didn’t know that in other
God’s mystery or God’s testimony I
thought that was a really weird phrase
God’s secret plan but it had a comment
about it um but he intentionally didn’t
use Loft words and impressive wisdom and
then he he says while I was with you I’d
forget everything except Jesus and
we I came to you in weakness timid and
troubling and my message and my
preaching were very plain rather than
using clever and persuasive speeches he
relied on the power of the Holy Spirit I
did this so you not trust in human
wisdom but the power of God and my
question here is mostly personal like
you do this
and I’ve always to be truthful I’ve
always sort of read it as like those are
kind of like tactics for manipulation
too like
changing changing your approach for
different people to like hear what they
want but that’s not what that’s not what
he’s doing and it it was really
interesting to see that Paul speaks
plainly that he does this to them and
I’m not saying you like you tell people
you’re doing that too it’s not like but
I just wondered if
you could like articulate how they’re
different like how it’s not
manipulation well I think probably it is
manipulation but it’s a manipulation
that is according to the
circumstance so uh it’s just like if
you’re talking to a a 5-year-old you’re
going to change the way you talk to them
than if you were talking to a
30-year-old and so are you manipulating
that 5-year-old well you’ve manipulated
your approach to them because they’re
not going to get it if you just come at
them with the same standard message at
the same standard level and so uh but
the beautiful thing about that is that’s
how God works he comes to you where
you’re at if you are you know a drunk
laying in the street whatever he will
come down to that level yeah and um and
if you’re elevated in a in an ivory
Tower he’ll reach you at that level and
so Paul will say I become all things to
all men yeah that principle is weird to
me yeah no it’s really necessary it’s
necessary as a parent it’s necessary in
engaging with all people but you look
like you’re
manipulating yeah the you the the
articulating of it in that way sounds
like it’s manipulative the act of it
doesn’t like I feel like you you know
even in your teachings you used to do
like milk and meat like and you’re
forthright about it it’s not like you’re
hiding something I feel manipul like man
manipulation comes with hiding things
like if someone were to press you yeah
if a 5-year-old understood better and
kept asking you’d tell them it’s
likeing yeah but I also it feels like it
conflicts with how Jesus was where he it
felt like Jesus could be described as
like giving these really powerful and
incomprehensible truths that no that was
on nobody’s level and he was like you’re
going to get it someday sort of thing
and there’s a time and place for that
too it seems yes there is and Jesus also
remember he had to speak the
truth and so if he was Pres with a
concept he had to include everything
about that Concept in his response but
he also had to uh but he also um edited
his messages where he didn’t give
everything at at once he met people
where they were he gave them the
truth it’s tough you’re and it’s
interesting that you see it this way
because it takes a Discerning Eye to
understand that’s what’s going on and so
you can be Discerning and you can become
critical of an individual who’s changing
that’s what people that’s what my
critics there’s a major one here in the
state he says that’s all I do is change
I’m not changing you’re not changing at
all I’m trying to
like I think just like I said the the
spoken principle like reading I become
all things to all people or like I
change like rather than clever I relied
on
the I don’t know just reading it without
the examples of it happening sounds
weird to me and it always has but like
it
it makes it Rel like it makes you
evaluate what the motivation is of what
you’re doing which is for Paul he’s
saying he’s relying on the power of the
Holy Spirit and that’s what you do too
and yeah for sure and like
like there’s also just a time and place
I don’t know like there’s a time in
place this is
just being a human and having a
conversation you can’t get all the facts
in anyway no but you have to consider
your audience you have to consider in
that their level of understanding yeah
you have to consider uh then if you’re a
good honest Communicator never saying
anything that contradicts
but you do give things that don’t seem
to be congruent with what you’ve said
before yeah it’s only because the
audience has changed it’s not because
what you stand for is changed yeah yeah
Paul’s reason for being that way was
because the uh Greeks are so so
philosophical and so he’s just pointing
out here in Greece I’m not coming and
using that I’m just coming and bringing
something different yeah I think my
question are trying to get at like
what what’s the reason that the message
of like the good news is like this like
why is it that it manifests this way and
I think your your reasons too in the
same way that Paul’s are like it’s it’s
by the spirit it’s subjective and it’s a
really big
picture and there were ages of different
types of things going like there’s just
so much to it that like you could speak
to a philosopher about it in terms of
philosophy and you could speak to a drug
addict about it in terms of like
addiction like you could speak to
everybody about it in terms of because
it’s a universal thing it’s just love
that’s right so that’s why it’s you
becoming all things all people it’s not
out of manipulation oh no it’s out of
love and it’s be just like a parent out
of love will not speak above their child
MH mommy daddy you know they’re going to
try to take out of love reach them where
they understand yeah and that’s the
thing what God does and we forget that
you know some religionists think God is
like this is my law it will be set you
too bad if you get it or not no way yeah
very different God unchanging yeah and I
I’m also trying
to see if you have a way of um are
articulating how someone can point out
when it’s manipulation versus love like
cuz they have similar things about
them but it seems like love like you
speaking to two different crowds in
different ways is for their benefit and
manipulation would be for your benefit
it seems like that is how you
distinguish the two that’s that’s a
that’s a element to do it sure I think
also sure if I’m trying to get you to uh
do something uh in my presentation
through guilt through um if I’m trying
to manipulate you to feel bad uh to uh
get you to then uh I mean feeling bad it
works too there’s a purpose for that
it’s when it’s when people are blinded
by Doctrine you have to get them to
break sometimes so it really depends you
know on the audience but if you’re
trying to trap them if you find that
what a person is doing is to get you to
become someone who serves them pays
money is threatened with hell those
signals you know should come up but if
the if it’s just misunderstanding
because there’s a depth difference too
bad you know you’re going to be
misunderstood if you understand the full
scope it’s like when someone comes up
and says Jesus came do you believe Jesus
already returned yeah uh well what about
and they ask you one question yeah and
you have 20 years of research on it it’s
so difficult to be able to just enter in
and that’s what people want today yeah
so you have to try to engage them with
rhetorical devices to get them to start
to think and that you are you
manipulating your mind to do it yes but
it’s all for them to be free yeah if you
hear the messages to make people free I
think you can say okay thank you you
but if to put them in bondage in way you
can you’re being manipulated in the
wrong way yeah okay that’s a that seems
like a like you could go to a
church this happens all the time with
people that I know where they go to
their church the church is doing
manipulative things but the impression
is like well they’re the church they
must be like not that they’re saying
they do all things for all people but
they they’re of that Spirit where
they’re like trying their best and but
like I don’t
know yeah well church is just I mean
bottom line religion is
idolatry um that’s that I’ll just say
that and if you don’t understand that
that’s because there’s a lot behind that
statement you know Old Testament New
Testament it’s idolatry because it
inserts itself between the individual
and God in my messages to people you
always say I can be wrong don’t trust me
but this is how I see it and you give
them the Liberty to grow in it or
not so okay well that was the first
verse our first few verses okay let’s
keep going when he says when I when I’m
among mature Believers I do speak with
words of wisdom but not the kind of
words of wisdom that belong to this
world or the rulers of this world who
are soon
forgotten um no the wisdom we speak of
is the mystery of God his plan that was
previously hidden even though he made it
for our ultimate Glory before the world
began
um first of all like the idea that there
are mature Believers this is like the
second part of what we were just talking
about like it’s both like what type of
person it is and their age and their
interest or whatever but also like
maturity in their belief is a thing and
that’s what Paul like you just think
that that’s like a principle and it’s
nice to see where it’s written in in the
Bible and how it’s used and what it
actually means to be a mature believer
yeah and the sad reality Delany is that
as you mature as a believer in the word
you will become more and more
alienated from those who aren’t and then
you become more and more alienated from
a lot more people as you mature and
pretty soon you’re pretty much alone so
that’s why you know our Grady down in in
Mexico and and I talk every morning he’s
been alone 27 years you get alienated
because people don’t understand you but
there so there’s a price for that
maturity but it’s the same thing with
Jesus you know at first he was popular
but as he continued to deliver them
deeper things they turned from him
yeah um
that makes sense yeah and it’s sobering
even to the smallest degree I understand
it so I can’t imagine being a freaking
scholar knowing all the stuff and and
then also I mean that isn’t that a type
of what Christ teaches is the world
around you is going to be focused on its
things and it all understands and they
know all the cool stuff and you become
more and more and more removed and so
it’s very hard to be a loving person
then cuz you get at the way it treats
you and you get depressed so it is a
sorrowful growth yeah and most people
don’t want it they just say no but the
rewards for it are incomprehensible in
internally you can’t beat it how would
you describe the rewards the rewards are
you are equipped to love and when you’re
equipped to love people unconditionally
and in every way possible you are
liberated you’re free you don’t have to
worry about how you look what you say
how what you eat you don’t have to worry
about you love them and you could be
brought in with the worst person and you
love them and the world hates that
because they want to you know get them
yeah love
liberates I’m I’ve been realizing too
that the like it’s almost just like a
logistical thing like you spend it’s
where you spend your time
like you
people it’s not just that they are
interested in something else but like
also Believers and can relate to you on
it they spend their time getting better
at this one thing and you’re spending
your time getting better at another and
it like there’s just nothing to talk
about because you don’t think about each
other’s yeah exactly and I want to say
something too God has given us a world
uh and he’s given all of us talents and
gifts to use in our lives we have lives
they’re important so I don’t look down
on someone who doesn’t do what I
do you know we’ve been watching the uh
Last Dance documentary I am so grateful
man I could almost cry at the talents of
these basketball players and the
entertainment they bring and they choose
to focus on that and I don’t judge them
uh they have their reward and it’s a
great reward and I don’t think they’re
going to be punished for being MBA a
rich uh successful basketball players in
the future I think God loves them he’s
going to give them a great future but
when you choose to seek him in this life
instead of try to do something in the
life there’s a different price and
there’s a different reward and I’m I’m
trusting that the reward after this life
will be God will take those who were
really dedicated to him and he’ll use
them to reach the dark and it would be a
it’s a servant’s place it’s not I’m a
God it’s a I’m a servant to try to help
you it’s the same model Jesus was you
know and that’s and that’s my hope I
want to be used in that way without my
flesh getting in the way afterward and
that and people I know who’ve grown in
the faith they have the same mindset
they’re not thinking they’re going to be
glorious they’re thinking I get to be
used by God to reach those who are lost
that is so wild isn’t it but there isn’t
like fles up there so it makes me
wonder like what it is that they’re
choosing outside of God up there I think
what they’re doing is they are thriving
in what they um know and loved and like
there’s a will like will up there oh
sure like that’s why the gates are open
day and night there’s a will yeah and so
you can use this life to make your will
his or you can use this life to exercise
your will I think in the afterlife
everybody’s own will will continue and I
don’t think God punishes them he loves
us he loved the world right so he’s
going to love the world there and I I I
really do and this is strange but I
really do believe that the economy of
heaven’s just like this one we’ll have
communities interested in different
things they’re love they’re provided for
whatever it is um but I just think there
will be something subtly different when
we’re outside of these bodies yeah yeah
I feel like it has to be something like
that cuz everything that the
Bible and talks about and even just the
idea of
love which is what how God is defined is
about like people and then like people
together yeah and groups like that’s
like the focus of everything yeah so it
would make sense that there’s
like socialization or something up there
which is why I am so adamantly
passionately driven to say
Christianity is not a culture it’s not a
group it’s a mindset it’s a heart set
but on Earth everyone wants to make it a
culture and we all we want to be
exclusive you know no one wants to be
inclusive
just to be clear that that sounds like
I’m saying it’s Christianity is like
about people and like how maybe like how
you approach group like groups exist yes
like systems exist
and love is like non either of those
you’d say like Christianity and its
expression of love is like it outside of
systems and groups transcends all of it
completely yes yeah like
that like our human like flesh is
systems to me like yeah flesh is
systematizing or abstracting things that
can’t that aren’t abstract and love
transcends them that’s right and so why
in the flesh do we systematize
do you
think like biology like survival
survival there’s unity in numbers
there’s power and strength fear it’s an
Us Versus Them All Flesh gathers in
cultures to protect themselves to feel
certain to feel right yeah but the love
God brings to you says I love whatever
group you are come on baby yeah someone
recently commented on your point that
like I idolatry like we’re born into
idolatry just by our need to have food
yeah and it’s like it’s just like a in
principle like it’s not it’s not like we
worship food and stuff but like we just
instinctually have to have things yes
meaning like there is something that’s
above God like if you’re about to die
you’re going to think how do I stop
dying right now like in ually you can
decide I’m going to stop thinking about
that and choose God but like in your
nature you’re going to pick to how to
survive and and so what people have done
historically to counter that is
monasticism they’ve said I’m going to
rid myself of all desire that’s what
Buddhism teaches I’m I’m not going to
allow myself to have desires and and the
difference between Eastern philosophy
and Christianity is Eastern philosophy
says lose yourself completely all your
desires and enter into Nana right but
Christianity Christ teaches no be
yourself wow just submit yourself to him
and let him use you that is so crazy
that’s like precisely what I’ve been
what I have been struggling with is like
H that’s
the like saving part of Christianity is
finding out that I should have a self
like it’s
it’s like love doesn’t exist without me
having a self that’s strong that I yeah
sacrifice Choice yes consistently and so
therefore you then are responsible for
the choice is made you see how it’s all
cycling into a and that makes for like a
lifelong project rather than like
Buddhism losing yourself seems like
there’s yeah Nirvana like you can get
there yeah and like be done and what’s
the focus self self self self true in
Christianity you’re not focusing on self
you’re focusing on him and he takes you
and he says you be who I made you to be
the best that you are yeah yeah it that
was where I sh like I thought
Christianity was losing yourself and
that made me the most selfish version of
myself I’ve ever been it was like this
yeah and it leads to freaking mental
illness it’s bad
how we doing on time you want to keep it
at 20 minutes yeah we’re at 23 so we
should move on but I have to G I have to
gauge these
things he’s got a clock in that head all
right we’ll see you next time okay bye
