To Excommunicate or Not, Part 1

Year-End Reflections and Gratitude

Show 9
To excommunicate or not
December 26th, 2017

Last show of the year. Special thanks to all of you. All of our viewers. All of our supporters through prayer, sharing the show, and financial contributions. I especially want to thank our volunteers and staff – Derrick and Denita, Kathy Maggie, Linda Cassidy, Seth Moder, Wendy Jensen, Steve Utley, Michael Anderson, Michael Lake, and Mary, Mallory, Cassidy, and Delaney. You are the lifeblood of the outreach and have kept us reaching out far and wide.

Thanks to our para-ministry friends – Bishop Earl and Ex Mormon Files, Warren Puckett and Breaking Bread, Danny Larson and Talking to Mormons, Janna Page and Conversations in Hope. You will all be seeing and hearing more from these ministries (plus more! in the near future).

Want to point out that we have three websites that have been totally revamped and organized by Michael Anderson in Sweden – all on his own time and dime. They are FANTASTIC and super user-friendly – check them out as they are now set up now for phone viewing and PCs and they are simply amazing. Additionally, everything we are doing has been integrated with FB, Twitter, and Instantgram. We have a YouTube channel that we rarely push but will start to push now – so go and visit it and subscribe to all we are producing for your consideration!

Exploring Our Online Platforms

For your information, we have three main websites to assist you in your quest for information:

First, HOTM.TV. This site hosts the archives for HOTM 1.0 – nearly 500-hour long programs and HOTM 2.0 is now assuming the spotlight there. If HOTM 1.0 is all the reasons why Mormonism is false, HOTM 2.0 is what people (like those who have left Mormonism) need to be wary of when looking for another church to attend. So that’s HOTM.tv.

Then we have CAMPUSCHURCH.tv – which is where I personally find the most joy. Why? It is a physical and online gathering where people get together, and we study the Word of God verse by verse every Sunday – once at 10 am (for Milk) and once and 2:30 PM (for Meat). All the teachings are archived and if you want to learn the Bible we invite you to join us. We are part of the Body studying scripture. All views, all people, all the time are welcome. There are no memberships, no appeals for money, no demands on you to conform to anything you are not moved by God to do. Your faith is between you and God and nobody else. We are just here to offer a place to hear the Word of God taught to the best of our ability. So that’s CAMPUSchurch.tv. We invite you to use it at YOUR convenience as the teachings are all recorded for YOU.

Finally, we are recording a show called, ChristiAnarchy Today – a play on the Evangelical periodical, Christianity Today. These shows are aimed at the young – teens and college-aged (and the young at heart) and what we are doing is compiling them and after a year or so we are going to target a specific younger audience and start promoting it to them. With this show, we have a new book available called The Christian Anarchist Crook Book Volume I. The site has been constructed by Michael and is readily accessible presently.

Upcoming Event and Announcement

Finally, in six weeks (February 13, 2018, from 7 PM to 10 PM) we will be having James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries coming to Heart of the Matter 2.0 to essentially confront me with his opinions of biblical truth. That ought to be a great event, but on that night, we are going to announce a para-ministry outreach we’ve created that I am super excited to introduce. Stay tuned for that coming announcement. And with that, let's pray.

Getting involved in the ministry and building our new sites Michael pointed something out to me in a recent conversation that I had never really given much thought to before. Now that I have embarked on understanding it, it just might be in the top five things Christians – and Christian leaders – need to understand today. Michael said, in effect, that “one of the things antagonists, apologists, and “critics” of our ministry are frequently telling people to do is for them to “part ways” with us (or anyone else) who “they deem” heretical or who are in some other way anathematic to being a Christian today – like the presence of sin, etc. Admittedly they do this by quoting New Testament scripture where the Apostles give this very same advice to believers in their day.

Church Discipline in Modern Christianity

Individual today believes that the Bible was written to them and also believes that Jesus is still coming back to take believers (His church). This automatically means that His church (and the people in it) must be as ready to be taken because the apostles demanded it of believers in their day! Does that make sense? From this perspective, I understand why these zealots would, from an honest (but a blinded uninformed heart) use these passages as justification to cut fellowship with other believers they feel deserve it.

In my estimation, the passages used to justify excommunication all fall under the auspices of “church discipline” and this leaves us with the question – is the church discipline (like we do read about in the New Testament) still applicable and necessary today? Many many Christians and pastors not only say it is, they try and enforce it! Of course, my opinion of this is it is one of the dumbest activities in modern Christianity but let’s see if I can back my opinion up with contextual biblical facts instead of just my foolish opinions.

Biblical Passages on Fellowship

We’ll begin by reading the passages most oft quoted that support the parting ways or having no fellowship with others believers. I suggest they all can pretty much be assigned to two general categories – first, ending fellowship with people who are sinning and second, ending fellowship with people who are heretical (and therefore divisionary or causing uproar of some sort).

The passages about parting company or having no fellowship (ex-communicating) people with sin are 1st Corinthians chapter 5, where an apparent believer was guilty of sleeping with his father’s wife – probably not his natural mother – but let’s keep it as egregious as possible and say it was his moms.

In verse 9 of that chapter Paul reminds them of a previous instruction he had given them and says: “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.” Two passages later he adds: “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” So there is one set of passages in chapter 5 of 1st Corinthians – pretty direct – and pretty much says don’t eat/have fellowship with (and posts a litany of sins). Still applicable today?

Then speaking of the particular case of the son having sex with his father’s wife, Paul writes: ". . . to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Got that? Another biggie is Ephesians 5:11 where Paul writes “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” So, no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (and also) to “reprove them.”

In a related passage Paul tells them in 1st Corinthians 10:20: “and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.” Contextually these passages are pretty much saying have no fellowship with people who are practicing sins (like these lists of sins that are mentioned in Ephesians and 1st Corinthians).

Another biggie is in 2nd Corinthians 6:14 where Paul writes “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” So here we have the reason why some Christians remain insular and do not have real friendships with any unbelievers at all.

Back in Ephesians 5:6-7 we read: “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” So there is another sub-category of person’s to avoid – “don’t be partakers of children of disobedience.” So it's clear in the New Testament – believers are NOT to have fellowship, break bread, eat with sinners – the first category that justifies excommunication. And we cannot escape what it says.

Avoiding Heretics and Disorderly Brethren

Then we get to category II where believers are to avoid fellowship with “heretics, disputers,” and the like. A popular one leveled at me is found in 2nd Thessalonian 3:6 where Paul says “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” Taken by itself, these words clearly indicate that if a brother “walks disorderly” AND not after the tradition received from the Apostles other believers.

Biblical Precedence on Doctrine and Excommunication

Paul’s words to the Romans in 16:17 emphasize:

“Now I beseech you, brethren, “mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”

This passage is significant and is often used by believers today who believe they are in a position to decide what is doctrine and what is not. Make no mistake, Paul wrote this, and thus it has a sound biblical precedence.

Application of Doctrine to Today's Believers

Titus 3:10 states:

“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;”

Given that I have been conveniently labeled a heretic by some outspoken men full of zeal today, a number of believers here in town feel justified in my excommunication. Just join me for lunch someday as the parade of Christians pass by without a word.

2nd John 1:10-11 provides further context:

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

This is used by some members of the Body to refuse blessings to those who fear being seen as partakers in evil deeds.

There are a few other references, but these are significant. We must acknowledge that the principle is clear—if someone in the Apostolic church was an open and egregious sinner, a heretic, or did not comply with Apostolic doctrine, they were to be excluded from fellowship—excommunicated—to be delivered over to Satan.

The Challenge of Contextual Application

If someone believes that the Word was written for them today, and that Jesus is still coming back to get His Church/ bride, then these things should be radically in place. No exceptions. No Christian should engage with a person openly sinning—ever. No Christian should communicate or say, God bless you, to a homosexual, a whore, or a heretic. No Christian should sit at the same table with someone run afoul of the doctrine set before them. It’s here in scripture. It was part of the apostolic church, and if someone truly applies the word to their lives, these things must be lived.

So, the question is—are these instructions contextually applicable to the Body of believers today—not according to personal opinions but according to the Word itself? The answer is complex. Most Christians find it easier to accept what it says and either ignore or apply most of it rather than challenge it by the Word itself.

Thus, many remain convinced that what Paul said to the believers has direct application now—they either feel guilty for associating with sinners and blessing gays or they apply these words to their religious lives. This can lead back to a time like the Salem witch trials, where everyone becomes suspect and perhaps deserving of being ousted. Churches can become a police state, which I have observed in some denominations and congregations.

Some suggest these unfortunate situations are the result of the doctrine of sola scriptura and the uncontextual, non-biblically supported attempt to apply it today. But can this be proven by scripture? I can argue my position with scripture more effectively than those who use the Word today as a modern manual to police believers.

Finally, let us consider two questions. First, what evidence is there for… Or, what evidence is there for people today to simply see the Bible as…

The Use of the Bible Today

Using the Bible as a “Manual of Musts” and a “Justification for Judgements” against others today. An inspired written history with zero material application on earth today but…

The Use of Scripture in Modern Times

The discussion centers around the role of scripture in faith building and understanding the nature of God and His Son throughout history. To explore this, various arguments and counterarguments are put forth.

• That early church fathers quoted most of what we read today in their writings. (To this I say praise God and so what? They had access to the New Testament letters that Paul and Peter and John and others wrote. What does that have to do with how it should be applied today?)

• That most of its contents was available in the late 2nd century to some people. (To this I say praise God – but again – so what? I mean, I adore the word of God and all that it can show us relative to the ways and person of God and His Son but because Paul gave advice to a church of believers in Rome in that day has no bearing on believers today – and you have no right to say it does!)

Biblical Justification and Misinterpretation

The typical response is to quote the ONE passage that believers use to justify the literal use of the Bible in their lives today, which is found in 2nd Timothy:

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (I would agree with this. But would the same people who cite this passage tell me that everything written in the New Testament is scripture written to them today? I would suggest that this is not so and even the most zealous believer would have to agree. This passage by the way is really the only internal evidence supporting the use of the New Testament in the world today.)

• And that the Protestant Reformers said that the Bible is the thing that Christians will use as their authority from 1530 on. (which has really missed the mark and divided people up causing them to do all sorts of crazy things). But it is a reason that people today will take passages like we read about excommunication and assign them to others.

That’s about it. Seriously. There’s not that much more that people can use to justify their use of the contents of the Bible on others today than these things – which are extremely thin and mostly based on traditions and the ideas of Man. And yet right now online thousands of people are citing chapter and verse as a means to disfellowship and excommunicate people from others – in the name of Jesus and by the power of these verses.

Internal and External Evidences

So now the question becomes, “is there any evidence that suggests that what people use the Bible for today was NEVER EVER EVER EVER to be the case?” There is so much evidence – both external and internal – that in a court of law modern-day Christian zealot would be convicted of fraud for taking passages like the ones mentioned and using them on others.

Let’s start with the internal evidences (which will establish our justification for the external).

• I want to introduce you to a single scripture that says it all – if you are willing. It’s in 1st Corinthians chapter 10. There Paul is talking to the believers at Corinth and he is using the contents of the Old Testament to warn them not to fail like the COI did.

He begins by describing how “the brethren” should “not be ignorant,” of the things their forefathers experienced – and he begins by citing the good things like crossing the Red Sea and eating spiritual meat and drink . . .

Then Paul says to those believers at Corinth:

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. And he proceeds to warn them to not be like the COI, saying

(verse 7) “Neither be ye idolaters,”

(verse 8) “Neither let us commit fornication

(verse 9) “Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

And then (verse 10) “Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Got that backdrop? That context? Now let me read to you one of the most important verses.

The Apostolic Warnings

In the all of the New Testament to teach us who these epistles were written to as Paul says at (Verse 11)

“Now all these things” (which he just cited from the history of the COI in the Old Testament) “happened unto them” (the COI) for ensamples (in other words, everything that happened to the COI were types and examples. For who? Ready) “and they are written for our admonition, (at this point we have a decision to make – who is the “our” Paul is talking about here – is it just them, in that day and at that time, or is upon me and you today? Well he tells us right here.

“and they are written for our admonition, upon whom “the ends of the world are come.”

The King James says the ends of the world are come, but the Greek literal says, “upon whom the ends of the age are come.”

This tells us who the “our” is in the line before. They were written as an admonition for those “upon whom the ends of the age had come!”

Upon WHOM the – the ends of the age had come!

Contextual and Historical Insights

What age was that? How was it going to end? And did the advice the Apostles gave to them then about not fellowshipping with sinners and heretics as a means to be prepared for the end of that age have a purpose that it does NOT have today? Of course it did!

And these plain and simple contextual, historical facts are completely ignored by Christian zealots. All they see are the Words in ink and chant, “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.”

I call that a recipe for hate, a recipe for ecclesiastical abuse, a recipe for a stew of zeal NOT supported by what God says.

Did you know that all of the Old Testament prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, and His apostles all spoke of that age?

That the prophets spoke of it in the distant future? That John the Baptist spoke of it as an axe laying at the base of the tree? That Jesus said it was all going to go down within forty years of His death and Resurrection? And that the Apostles all spoke of it (with increasing urgency) as coming but not yet, as near, as at hand and then as right now!

We’ve given you the irrefutable passages! Go to our archives and watch the shows in 2015 and 16.

The New Covenant

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days (of that age, I would add), saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is what would reign over earth in the reign or kingdom of God – His Laws written on the minds and hearts.

But until that time, which would commence with the return of Christ to His own as promised, Jesus Church was under heavy fire.

We are talking about direct persecution by the Jews, direct persecution by the Romans, internal infighting, and even Satan Himself coming down to torment the Saints – before the consummation of that age.

So Jesus chose and elected Apostles to oversee His church, His bride – a church that the Gates of Hell would NOT prevail against – though it would try.

And between the time of Jesus ascension and the consummation of all things at His return, he had His chosen and trained apostles governing His churches welfare.

Guidance in Wartime and Spiritual Warfare

What was necessary for them to survive the external and internal forces aimed at their utter destruction. And the apostles, during this period of spiritual and physical warfare, directed them “UPON WHOM THE END OF THAT AGE HAD COME” to follow their established protocols and practices to resist the gates of hell.

See, wartime calls for specific measures to be implemented because the normal way of doing things aren’t always effective under the pressures and trial of war. Imagine that today President Trump, out of the blue, demanded the following:

• A Ban on the use of yeast for alcohol.
• A flock of sheep on the white house lawn
• The planting of personal victory gardens
• A ban on nylons for women
• A ban on sausage making
• The painless killing of household pets
• And a ban on sliced bread

We’d think he’d really lost his mind. But during WWI and II these things were all put into effect to assist the WARTIME effort. And they made sense when explained. But as we can see, once the war ended, the imposition of such things was put to an end.

Apostolic Orders and the Church's Survival

So it was with much of what was written to those UPON WHOM THE END OF THAT AGE HAD COME. As a means to keep the church from ANY and ALL extra tensions the Apostles gave them these orders. And remember, Jesus was coming back at the end of that age to take His bride – the Church – described in Revelation as “without Spot.” This is no longer the case. His body now reigns. But in that day it was vital for the Church/Bride to be prepared with all manner of defenses to quell internal and external influences.

Some might say, Well, what was necessary for them is necessary for us. I might agree if the New Testament didn’t tell us that once that age was over, everything would change – like it should have for us. Like what? I’ve read it a dozen times, but this is how Paul describes it in first Corinthians 15 where he is speaking of the resurrection and says:

1st Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For God must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For God hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that God is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The New Age and God's Omnipresence

I submit to you that since the end of that material age of religion had come upon them that we are NOW in this age, where God has written His laws upon our hearts and minds, and that He is all in all, and we are no longer in warfare as a means to survive as a bride. We are all, by His Spirit and His laws written on our hearts and minds, in His body – by faith.

There is no church – He took His Church that was under apostolic rule and reign and the gates of hell did NOT prevail against it. But the playing of church today is a fraud, a contrivance, and has no place. No longer is the advice given to them UPON WHO THE END OF THE AGE WOULD FALL applicable, for God writes His laws upon the hearts and minds of individuals, and we by the Spirit choose whom this day we will serve.

There’s no need for this policing and disciple – in fact it is contrary to what God said would be.

One last thing. The writer of Hebrews 12 cites the Old Testament to describe what the faith would look like once the things of that age was over and he quotes God promising that:

“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven."

The Unshakable Spiritual Kingdom

27
This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain.

What cannot be shaken can only be that which is spiritual, that which is individual, that which is non-material, not of men.

Our Age of Spiritual Reality

Here the writer of Hebrews is describing our age, when once everything that could be shaken in heaven and in earth has been so that the only thing that cannot be shaken will remain. In the hearts and minds of believers. This is His Kingdom come – dwelling as Christ said, within us. We have no need to police or cast out or disfellowship. The Spirit will reign in love over all, drawing them into repentance and changes as they are individually lead.

Evidences of the Spiritual Kingdom

But we are not done with evidences to support my point. More next week.

Let’s open up the phone lines: