Worship in Spirit and Truth

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Show 15 492
The Holy Spirit – Part II
April 12th 2016

Our prayer this evening will be given by Bob _____________________ who after praying is going to play and sing for us a song.

Brother Bob.

MUSIC

Correct Doctrines

Okay, how about now we go to The Board of Direction

(Run Board of Direction intro here please)

(see notes below)

(From the Word opener here)

I just want to reiterate something that struck some people last week and bears repeating:

How can a believer tell if their doctrine is correct?

It leads to, or manifests itself in love of God AND love of Man.

If you maintain a doctrine that does not lead to love for God and love for man you have misinterpreted the doctrine involved. This is the barometer by which we test all things. To me it’s the new litmus test for theological stances. Or maybe we should say it is the way individuals can privately determine the eternal value of any given doctrinal stance.

If the belief contributes to love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance then it is being accorded and applied in a proper manner. If it contributes to meanness, anger, unrest, impatience, aggressiveness, evil, doubt, intemperance, pride, arrogance, gossiping, judgment somehow or another the doctrine has been misinterpreted or misapplied. Just a reiteration.

Holy Spirit as Gender Neutral

So continuing on our topic of the Holy Spirit remember, in the multiple-dozens of times the word “Spirit” is used in the NT it is always in the “gender neutral.” Making the description an “it” rather than a “he.” In other words Spirit ought to be described as a “he” if the gender was masculine but because it is all but four or five places described in the gender neuter the Spirit, Holy Spirit ought to always be an “it.” Because of this non-gender specific way the Spirit is described in the Greek it seems fairly obvious that to the early believers the Holy Spirit was still NOT considered a person.

Key to Trinitarianism is that the Holy Spirit be seen as a third separate and distinct being, essence person or personality of the Godhead rather than the Spirit of God Himself.

In his book, Theology for the Community of God, Stanely Grenz, a Baptist theologian writes that: “the personhood of the Holy Ghost didn’t become official church dogma unto the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.” It was here that as a means to systematize the faith into a uniform body of beliefs that a number of debates were formalized into creeds – and then over time enforced – even brutally – upon all people.

Today it has become quite necessary for Christians to fully embrace this man-made assessment of God and His spirit with but prior to the fourth century (and going back to Moses) it seems that the Spirit of the Lord was seen as exactly that – “the Spirit of the Lord.”

I had a Jewish Christian call me last week and say how much he enjoyed these talks and reiterated, “when will people get that there is one God end of Story?” I replied, “hopefully sooner than later.”

Different Perspectives on the Holy Spirit

Moving out to Joseph Smith’s day, Christians, laboring under the weight of Creedal Trinitarianism, continued to see the Holy Spirit as the divine influence of God and though a person, even they never seemed to describe it (or Him) as a “ghost in human form.”

To Trinitarian Christians then (and even today) the Holy Spirit was more of a “center of consciousness or will or essence” than an actual separate personage or being. However, to binitarian and Unitarian Christians the Holy Spirit was simply a manifestation of God’s power or as God’s divine influence upon Man.

It was the Unitarian minister Noah Worcester in 1812, the era of a very young Joseph Smith who said that “If God is represented by a metaphor of the natural sun . . . then the rays . . . which emanate or proceed from the sun, are an emblem of the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father. Like the rays of the sun, these divine emanations . . . illuminate, quicken, invigorate and fructify.” (Fruc-tify fruc-tify! I like that word. “Hey get the fruc-tify outta here, ya fithly animal.”)

Binitarian David Millard also called the Holy Ghost, “a divine emanation of God,” and to be honest, even Trinitarians (who often maintain the same things even today) regarded the Holy Spirit as an emanation flowing

The Evolving Understanding of the Holy Spirit in LDS Theology

From the Father and Son, but not as an actual being or person himself.

(see Charles Spurgeon Sermons, Sermons of C.H. Spurgeon, London, page 46)

So amidst this along comes Joseph Smith. But, just as it has been proven to be among Biblical Christians, the concept and understanding of the Holy Spirit in Mormonism was an evolving matter. The earliest LDS revelations and teachings on the Holy Ghost appeal to traditional Christian terminology which emphasized its “illuminating and quickening nature rather than traits that would identify “it” as a “he” or “being.” The Book of Mormon, for example, refers to the Holy Ghost (as in 2nd Nephi 32:5, Alma 34:38, and 39:6) in the neuter gender, “it” as do the earliest revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants.

LDS theological historian Charles Harrell plainly states:

“The evidence suggests that early Latter-day Saints understood the Holy Ghost to be a spiritual power or influence, not a personage.”

Variability in Interpretations

So while Mormons today have a number of ways to interpret their scriptures when it speaks of Spirit (they have the Holy Ghost, the Light of Christ, the Spirit, the holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Truth), all of these titles must be understood, according to late LDS apostle Bruce McConkie, in the context of each scriptural passage in which it is mentioned to know which is which and who is who – an exercise that the earliest Mormons would have probably seen as twisted.

How can I say this? We’ve gotta remember that founder Joseph Smith himself defined the Holy Ghost in The Lectures on Faith (which were published in 1835) as

“the mind of God,” noting that “only the Father and the Son were personages.”

In Mormonism today, however, the mind of God would be more equated with what the LDS would call the “light of Christ” or maybe just the “influence of the Holy Spirit” and not with the Holy Ghost itself.

Joseph Smith's Evolving Doctrine

The LDS doctrine that the Holy Ghost is actually a personage or being seems to have first been suggested by Joseph Smith in February of 1841 when he said about the godhead that

“the three were separate bodies.”

Then in March of the same year, Smith added a new twist to the view, saying,

“The Son had a tabernacle (sic) & so had the father but the holly (sic) Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernacle (sic).”

Then in January of 1843, Smith gave a far more clear definition of the Holy Spirit, saying:

“The Holy Ghost is a personage in the form of a personage.”

Then in April of the same year, the clarifications got… clearer… as Smith said:

“The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the H.G. in his heart. A man (may) receive the gifts of the H.G., and the H.G. may descend upon a man but not to tarry with him.”

We note that the Binitarian and Unitarian description of God being “the Sun and the Holy Spirit being like rays from the Sun,” has now been taken by Smith to say that the Holy Ghost is like the sun (a single individual personage that cannot dwell in the heart of a man) but that a man may receive his gifts or rays. In other words, as Smith described the Holy Spirit as an actual personage, the Holy Spirit's ability to actually personally be in more than one place at one time became impossible – only his presence could be felt in more place at one time.

What is interesting about this is though Smith declared that the person of the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in the heart of an individual when this was published in the Doctrine and Covenants 130:22-23, it was reworded to give the OPPOSITE meaning and says that the reason the Holy Spirit IS A spirit is SO it can dwell in a man’s heart. In the 1850s, years after Smith’s deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., LDS church historians changed Joseph Smith’s original words to what they read in the Doctrine and Covenants today.

In the end, the teaching that the

The Holy Ghost in Mormon Theology

Holy Ghost is an actual personage of Spirit wasn’t widely touted prior to 1856 and the actual changes by the LDS historians of Smith’s real words were not published until 1876. In fact as late as 1855 Orson Pratt said that he knew of no revelation that clarifying that the Holy Ghost was a person. When the revised rewritten teachings that the Holy Spirit is a personage were published it caused LDS leadership to go back and remove teachings that had taught otherwise, including the removal of Lecture of Faith from the Doctrine and Covenants of 1921.

Then there is the LDS teaching that possessing a physical body is necessary for salvation (based on Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34 an 131:2-4 and Joseph Smith’s teachings on the Corporeal nature of God). This teaching lead to speculation about whether the Holy Spirit personage would ever get a body of his own. This caused Smith to say in a public address in August of 1843 that: “the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

Such a teaching is in harmony with the LDS idea of a continuing eternal progression of all beings – God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Man – growing and progressing to higher and higher states of existence. Interestingly enough, in all his talks about the Holy Ghost passing through a probationary state Smith identifies the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son but he never associates the Holy Spirit as one of the Spirit children of God as He does Christ. It wasn’t until late 1844, close to the day of his death, that the doctrine of spirit birth began to emerge and only then did it become normal for the LDS to think of the Holy Ghost, like all human shaped beings, as one of God’s spiritual offspring.

Evolution of Teachings on the Holy Ghost

Then in 1857, Heber C. Kimball, counselor to Brigham Young said matter of factly: “The Holy Ghost is a man; he is one the sons of our Father and our God.” Once Smith died speculations popped up in Mormondom about the real identity of the Holy Spirit causing even some LDS to believe that Joseph Smith himself was the Holy Spirit. (You can find evidence for this in Vern G. Swanson’s book, The Development of the Concept of the Holy Ghost in Mormon Theology, page 97)

But today the accepted LDS teaching on the Holy Ghost is that he is a personage of spirit in human form and because of this he cannot take the shape of any other form (like a dove). His person, like the sun, can only be in one place at one time, but his influence can be felt around the world.

Conclusion

So there we have it – from the Old Testament to the New Testament – From the “Spirit of the Lord” to the Hagias Pneuma (Holy Spirit) of the New Testament (neuter gender and therefore referred to as “it”), to Constantine and his Bishops deciding to codify doctrine as a means to induce uniformity, to Smith and his original views, to Mormonism today essentially agreeing with Creedal Trinitarianism regarding the Holy Spirit, with the added similarities being that “it” is a “he,” and that “he” is a separate personality or being from the Father and Son, and with the extra flare that this male personality is really a spirit child of heavenly father that will someday get his own body.

With that let’s open up the phone lines:

Whist the operators are clearing your calls take a look at this:

NEW CAMPUS SPOT HERE

Copy Article on Chris Johnson here and the Book of Napoleon

• Reminder of CAMPUS sermons online (www.campuschurch.tv)
• Play Meeting Sunday April 17th 4pm
• Newest book: Knife to a Gunfight

(FROM THE BOARD OF DIRECTION)

WHY THERE ARE FEW BE THERE THAT FIND IT

We all start as children learning from frightful reactions of parents and tales of terror that the world is full of great dangers and that there is tremendous reason to fear. It’s almost like we are constantly being told that below our feet thrives a horrible chasm deep and wide and that if we trip or stumble or God forbid let go we will fall, fall, fall into it and that there is a great probability we will never recover. And so we all begin life having been given hand and foot holds of certainty that prevent us from falling.

Fear and Freedom

God is this. This is truth.

Never do this. Always do that.

People find themselves as terrified insects clinging to the side of a slippery tub, afraid to move an inch for fear of falling in and getting sucked down the drain. The point of all of this is FEAR is the motivator that causes us to cling for dear life to the things we have been taught. As we age the wall gets higher and therefore the fall greater, steeper, and therefore more terrifying. Over time we feed, reinforce, and even pass our fears along to our children. Now they are fearing what we used to fear. Additionally, we look about and see others clinging to the same hand and foot holds. And we then encourage and reinforce the securities and fears we maintain, refusing to allow ourselves to fall.

Embracing Uncertainty

But every now and again there are people who say: “There must be more to life than this?" OR “God couldn’t want existence to look and feel like this” OR “This fear that I have had is unreasonable,” OR “I am so tired of holding on, I would rather die and lose it all than continue on this path” OR “What I am clinging to is just as pernicious as what may happen to me if I let go.” OR “I want to be free!” OR “I want Truth with a capital T” OR “God help me!” And they let go.

Letting Go

Of their strongholds. Of what men have told them. Of what society demands. Of religion, playing church, doctrinal oppressions. Of parents. Of culture. Of false gods. Of ego. The fall is frightening, full of uncertainty, full of derision of those still clinging, even of loss. There is no certainty, no security, no promise of a safe landing. But the single most remarkable discovery is made once the person has let go of all that kept them safe and secure – it is only in the falling that they are able to grow wings and ultimately learn to fly.

(And with that, how about a moment from the WORD?)

From: Ben Price
Subject: Questions
Message Body:
Hi, my name is Ben Price and I'm a former LDS (very recently). I have greatly enjoyed the videos that I have seen on YouTube. It's a funny thing because when I still considered myself LDS I would get very angry at Shawn when

Perspectives on Faith Transition and Identity

I watched the videos and it was like I would put on ear muffs and not even listen to the claims he would make about the church. Fortunately I came to a point where I was finally able to listen and research these claims, finding out that they were absolutely true! It wasn't long after that the things I believed began to topple over like dominoes. God bless you Shawn for having the courage to take the stand that you have. You have truly opened my eyes!

Questions on Finding New Faith Resources

1. Can you recommend a version of the bible? (obviously I don't trust the mormon versions and want to throw my quad away!)
2. Can you recommend a church in the Boise, Idaho area?

I am in the position of coming out of mormonism, feeling like my mind is blown, and not knowing where to go/who to trust from here. Does Shawn ever come to Boise to lecture? It would be the greatest honor to meet or talk with Shawn! Any guidance would be greatly appreciated! Thanks and God Bless!
-Ben (Former LDS) Boise, ID

This is an enquiry email via http://campuschurch.tv/ from: Jay Chiocca j.chiocca@yahoo.com

Hello! I'm Jay and I'm 16. I'm a Christian (I'm a confirmed methodist who was raised in a southern baptist church). I'm kind of confused about a few things, so I'm trying to get as many perspectives as I can to supplement my own reading and interpretation so I can form an educated opinion on my own.

Identity and Faith

I'm a transgender man. I'm currently beginning the long process of physical transition from female to male. The Bible doesn't seem to discuss transgender identity or physical transition much. The baptist church I grew up in is so firmly against it that it is the main cause of 8 years of self harm, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts. The methodist church that I'm a member of is supportive of my transition and affirming of LGBT people in general. I'm very confused by the extreme difference in opinion, since we're all studying the same Bible.

I'm also disabled and chronically ill. I've asked both churches for their ideas on why this happens. The methodist church tells me that God creates us all exactly the way we are. The baptists say my disabilities are a result of sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. entering the world, poisoning the perfection of His work. They say it's probably not coincidence and that my parents made God angry and I'm their punishment, or that I'm being punished by Him for something. I don't understand the extreme differences in opinion, but I've been bombarded by the two for my whole life and don't know what to think anymore.

Basically, I'm wondering about the core of our beliefs as Christians. Is God's definition of "perfect" the same as ours? Are able-bodied/straight/non-trans people and disabled/queer/trans people equal and should be treated as such, or are disabilities and LGBT identities "mistakes" and therefore not His doing? If so, does that mean the hate is justified? Do I deserve to be targeted by violence because I'm not trying hard enough to "correct" these "mistakes"? Is He a loving, forgiving, kind God who creates differences that should be respected and supported, or is He a sadistic, angry God who punishes those who aren't perfect enough?

I've been told that questioning the core of our beliefs is wrong, because it is not our place to think we could ever understand the will of God. Is it wrong to wonder these things? I've also been told that we should be thinking and wondering about them because these aren't hypothetical issues; people's interpretations of the Bible do change the way we treat others. Should we be questioning them? Is it even worth our time to dig deep into them, or should we just love everyone as they are, no questions asked?

Like I said, I'm just looking for another perspective so I can form stronger, more educated opinions of my own.

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Jay Chiocca

From: Cynthia Hieronymi
Subject: thank you
Message Body:
I have struggled for the past 5 years after a major faith crisis. Watching your youtube videos gave me the strength to reach out to a Pastor in my community and denounce Mormonism after 35 years and become a born again Christian. God bless you.

From: Angeliki
Subject: thanks for clarifying to people
Message Body:
Hi Shawn,
I am greek, living in London, got the brittish nationality recently

Reflections on Mormonism and Christian Identity

(we are allowed both) but here people are reliougiousless whatsoever big time; I spend time studying religions; I am an analyst for a bank which makes me feel weird already (working for Mammon..) Anyway I decided to return back and dump this whole chase for money. I have no connection myself with mormonism and lds whatsoever, I am an orthodox Christian, I do practice this and also studying Hellenistic religion and philosophy to an extend as well as I am open to religions in general and studying. My research on Mormonism just got me literally nuts; I read the bible in greek and I found so absurd the fact that people can believe in such cr*p and be so helpless afterall, and still be thinking they are doing the right thing and they believe that their book is a real bible, while it is a fake book. And not only that, this is used as a huge Mammon attractor; These people are tithing a 10% it is ridiculous. I am invited to the church even if I am the worst, I am allowed to confess, I am welcome at ALL times to my orthodox Christian community. And this is majestic. I still remember these boys in suits and ties in Athens early 90s (I was ten+) on bicycles just smiling and I now understand what that was and how much these people were abused and that just blows my mind away.

Questioning Mormonism's Christian Affiliation

The problem I still have is whether these people associate themselves with christianism. Forget the mumbo jumbo on Jo, these people think they are Christians and they had a series of massacres, abuse, thieving and all kinds of perverts stories they support, they can all have their little lds or flds weird club, but they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves "Christians"; wtf is all this?? Therefore, I searched and I have seen your example and I want to encourage you. I see your videos online, and I have seen other ex Mormons revealing truths and being sorted out finally by just reading the real book, but it is very good you do actually peristengly struggle to show the deception at all times.

I initially thought: "how do these people get hooked?" but then I realized, these people are just brainwashed and poor in soul; Their way they treat Jesus, women, minorities, and the way they love money, and also the way they are trapped, this way is not Christian. Thank you for helping them, they deserve a way out/ they are mostly "sweet" (ffs). The problem is these people cannot really escape, they are no to laugh at, they have been really treated the worst way, definitely not the Christian way… and still this organisation makes money out of tortured people. Again, you do a great job, I will be watching you even if this is not real time, I respect what you are doing. Thank you for your effort, I watch your show with my daughter, and I am happy for what you are doing. btw I have a question, are you baptized to any mainstream Christian stream?

Personal Experiences and Reflections

Dear Shawn, for over 3 years now I have seen your you tube videos. I think I have seen most of them and some several times over. I was in the church for 40 years, I joined when I was 25 in England. I married an American missionary from Sacramento that came to my home town. His family were several generations LDS. I moved to Sacramento in 1977. We have now been married for almost 39 years. It will be 2 years in August when I told my husband that I didn't want to be LDS any more. Of course, he was angry, and a host of other things, but we have always been together on everything that we have ever done. Over time he listened to my concerns, I also invited a family friend over who works one week a month at the church head offices, on the Joseph Smith papers I believe. He is very knowledgable about a lot of different religions. I asked him, how can you know all the things I do, plus I'm sure so much more, and still believe? His answer was, I accept the things I believe and just ignore the things I don't. He then bore his testimony of how he was converted. Wow! As he was someone we had always admired, this was somewhat of a blow! The upshot was that my husband and I started talking more about it and he started to see and accept the flaws of the church, so many!! Next stage after anger, yes I was angry too, is hurt and sadness. How could this be, that we didn't see these things a long

Personal Faith Journey

Time ago, that we were "brainwashed" that was a shock, we were confused. Unbelievable! It was almost a year before I started looking to other churches. My husband would not come. One day while browsing the internet I found Valley Church in Vacaville Cal. We now live in Fairfield, which is close. Jeremy, the lead Pastor was amazing to listen too. So open, so animated, so convicted in his faith, he struck a cord in me. I wanted to get back to a church that ONLY EVER, talked about Jesus, the one I learned about in school. My family were not religious, I'm an odd ball to them, but they love me and are great! My husband agreed to go to a Service in the Park event they were having. We met some nice people and took some info. To my surprise, the following Sunday he agreed to go to the church, to try it out! It sure was different, and loud. They have a resident live band, and the music is so different, yet, we loved it. When Jeremy preached from the book of Romans, I cried, and cried. I had never heard anything like it. In fact, I still cry a lot, because for the first time I started to know Jesus Christ the way he meant for us to know him.

Embracing Faith

We interviewed Jeremy later that week for about two hours on different aspects of his beliefs as a Christian. With Jeremy, what you see is what you get. He was just as animated, just as convicted, just as excited about the gospel. Needless to say, the journey has not been easy. Learning just how wrong we had been, brought a lot of tears. For the 1st time in my life, I listened to the New Testament from beginning to end. I use the NIV version. Lots more tears, why had I not known this? Why had I not known Paul and all of his contributions? Why had I not understood Grace. I have to admit, that concept was difficult to grasp. We have been in this church for 8 months now, with no regrets, I have weekly bible study with the women, Derek has men's meetings, we have more friends than we ever had in the other "church". Turns out they were more like acquaintances. What more can I say. Thank you for opening my eyes and helping with this journey. My husband and I have never been happier, we feel like we are in control of our own thoughts and choices again. Strange thing is, we never knew we weren't!! That's crazy!!

Challenges and Encouragement

The down side is, our daughter lives in Layton Utah with 4 of our grandchildren. She has chosen to cut herself off from us totally. Blocked on Facebook, no return calls, nothing. This is hard, very hard, but my faith is with my savior Jesus Christ. Someday it will be o.k. Check out Valley Church in Vacaville on the web, I think you will enjoy their enthusiasm. Oh, yes it's an evangelical free church. I love the idea, that they don't like the idea of a "church" as much as that "we" are the church, Christ's church, not an institution, but a body of believers. Now there's a concept.

Thanks Shawn, we may be in Utah later this year, late May or June, it would be great to meet in person if possible. Let me know when and where you are. Oh, and we have just decided to send in our letters of resignation too.

Best wishes, Sandra and Derek.

3. Bible

While hundreds of languages spoken on earth have not a single syllable of Scripture, English and American readers get a new Bible almost yearly. It was not always so. William Tyndale, the first to translate the Scriptures into English, fled from country to country and city to city to escape being murdered by the agents of Roman.. After completing his Bible the Church Of Rome found him, and burned him at the stake. (Nearly 90 percent of Tyndale’s writings passed into the KJV) In the 16th Century, it meant death for anyone, to even own a Tyndale Bible. Many hungered for the 'bread of life' [John 6:48], and died defying Rome! I purchase a copy of each new Bible that comes on the market. They are translations. But I use the King James, the Authorized version.

Understanding Faith and Weapons

A Message from a Viewer

From: Brandon Davidson
Subject: Please help!

Message Body:
Hey Shaun, I watch your show a good bit and have even called a few times. You've been a great help and have taught me many things! I am from a violent family and guns and violence we're a way of life in the past but thankfully God has delivered us from that destructive lifestyle, saved me and my parents, and has given us a church that teaches the real gospel.

In spite of all this, I see more and more Christians carrying guns, saying that they feel naked without one. I used to feel that way, but the weapons of our warfare are not of flesh but of spirit. It seems like they are quick to shoot somebody but wouldn't share the gospel if their life depended on it and it shows a GREAT lack of faith!

Biblical Guidance Requested

Do you know of any scriptures I can use to tell my brothers and sisters that shooting someone is a bad way to witness and living by the gun is a sure way to die by it? And that we should witness without fear of death and only use guns for hunting? I love guns but I love lost people more so I put them down. I pray they will do the same and I need some biblical help. Thanks and keep going.

-J. Vernon McGee