Heart of the Matter: Ontology of God Part VI

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah. This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

Show 49 475 Ontology of God Part VI
December 8th, 2015

Tonight our prayer will be given by ________________________

Upcoming Show and New Book

Okay, just as a reminder, beginning Tuesday, January 5th, we will begin airing a new show right BEFORE Heart of the Matter on Tuesday Nights. 7:30 Mtn. It’s called, “Breaking Bread” with Warren Puckett. I love the flavor that Warren brings to the topic of Jesus as Lord and look forward to his programs reaching the people God intends. That’s Breaking Bread, beginning Tuesday, January 5th 7:30 PM right before HOTM.

Additionally, we have created a new free book for you to consider online. It’s called, “It’s not the end of the World” and we encourage you to download it and take a minute to challenge your prejudicial traditions thereby. “It’s Not the End of the World” at www.hotm.tv – and it's free.

Clarifications on Rumors

Two more things – Speaking of online, a dear friend and sister of mine who keeps her ear to the rails of the internet told me that some naysayers of my person and faith have been passing around the idea that I am in favor of sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace.. I actually understand how this could be assumed of me when I consider some of the things I say. But let me make myself clear: I am not a promoter of sin and if something is sin, I stand utterly opposed to it.

There are two things to understand about this clarification, however. First, we have to come to an agreement on what can actually and properly be called sin. But perhaps more importantly, while I do not appreciate nor relish nor rejoice in sin, I refuse to judge another person for their failure to refrain from it. That’s not my job. My job is to love all people and help them see the only solution to sin – Jesus.

Secondly, there is also a nasty rumor floating about (from the Christians, no less) that I have become a consumer of large quantities of alcohol. To this accusation, I ask you busybodies to get a life. And I refuse to justify myself to any of you for anything in my life. Say what you want – that I’m an alcoholic, a molester, a liar, an adulterer, a thief, gay, meth-addict – whatever you want to say – but I will never offer any of you an explanation for anything in my life.

Inside Perspective from the New Testament

Why? Because you, like our LDS detractors of yesteryear, will always believe what you want. I wish you God’s speed. And with that, how about a moment from the Word?

We’ve been working through the books of the New Testament to present passages that support the subjective approach to Christianity. Tonight, 1st John.

1st John 2:5-6 “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

Here John says we, the individual, can know that we are in Him. Not someone else telling us – we know.

1st John 2:9-10 “He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.” How or who else can know if he loves his brother than the individual?

1st John 2:26-27 “These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

This passage is in harmony with the prophecy given in Isaiah 54:13 and echoed in Hebrews which says:

Hebrews 8:10-11

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the…”

The Essence of Love in Faith

Ist John 3:11 “For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” That fulfills the Law – not doctrine, not practice, not systematic religion – love! Again –

1st John 3:14 “We know that we have passed from deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.”

How many commandments have you been told to keep from over the pulpit? How have men and women broken them down and forced upon you? Well take a listen to this:

The Commandment of Love

1st John 3:23-24 “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

1st John 4:1-6 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

1st John 4:7-12 “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”

Assurance of God's Spirit

1st John 4:13 “Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.”

And then more . . .

“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.”

1st John 5:1-5 “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”

1st John 5:9-10 “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of

Exploring The Plurality in God's Language

God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.”

1st John 5:13 “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

A lot of verses reiterating the same things – faith, love, and the individual’s ability to know where his or her place is before God by the presence of them in themselves – something others cannot know of us but we can ONLY know of ourselves.

Listen, before we go to our continuation of last weeks message I challenge all of you guys to go to www.campuschurch.tv and in the archives tune into the message from last weeks MILK – dated December 6th. Its where we cover Acts 3:19 through to the end of the chapter. It is a VERY important biblical teaching.

Understanding Old Testament References

Okay, last week we said that in all of the Old Testament, amidst hundreds of references that God is one, that there is one God, that there are no more than one, that there are four instances (1,2,3,4) where God is described or speaks in the plural pronoun. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…." Genesis 3:22 "God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." At the building of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:7) God said, "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech" And Isaiah 6:8 where God says, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" We asked who God was speaking to or about when He said, Let us or who will go for us? Who is the “us,” the “our,” the “we?”

Examining Theories of Plural Usage

Of course the LDS use these passages as proof-texts to support the teaching of a pre-existence not only of Christ and angels but of all human kind. But in Christianity there are four general theories that have been proposed to explain this plural usage in reference to God. The first theory claims that God “counseled with His own will” or “deliberated within His own mind” as to what He would do. This theory is based on passages like Ephesians 1:11 where it is said that God works "all things after the counsel of his own will." The thinking is that these four passages are reflecting his thought process, sort of like we would say to ourselves, “Okay, what should we do, what should we do?” Unfortunately the Hebrew grammar does not allow for this theory because it indicates that God was speaking to somebody besides Himself.

The second theory is that the plural pronouns are used as a "majestic plural." Most scholars – even a great deal of Trinitarians – seem to believe this is the case. “Majestic plural” language is typically used by royalty but not exclusively. Biblical examples of “majestic plural” language include Daniel's statement to Nebuchadnezzar when he said, "We will tell the interpretation thereof before the king" (Daniel 2:36). When Daniel was the only one who gave the king the interpretation of his dream. Again, King Artaxerxes wrote in a letter, "The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me" (Ezra 4:18). But according to Ezra 4:11 the letter was sent to Artaxerxes alone. Going to Ezra 7:13 and 24) we see that when Artaxerxes penned another letter to Ezra he used the first person singular pronoun "I" in one place and the first person plural pronoun "we" in another. This view, while somewhat satisfying (and not beyond the realm of possibility) does not seem very credible. I say this because why would God use singular pronouns of Himself in hundreds of places in the Bible, yet would choose four places to use plural pronouns in a majestic plural sense? It would seem that God the reverse would be true – that He would use plural pronouns exclusively when speaking of Himself (if He was a plural) or stick with singular completely. In other words these few instances where plural pronouns are used seems to suggest that there is some special reason they are used and

Theories on the Plurality of God

No little insights into the plurality of God. This is one of my problems with Trinitarian doctrine – I think if the teaching was true then God would constantly use plural pronouns to describe Himself instead of just four. The third theory explains these passages by saying that although not present physically in the flesh at these times, God was speaking to Jesus (and I guess we might supposed the Holy Spirit too) in a prophetic manner, having foreknowledge of His (or their) future arrival. It is thought that since God calls those things which are not as though they were (Romans 4:17), that He spoke to the Son even though He was not physically present yet.

The thought is that God could do so because He does not live in time as we do, and does not view time as we do and that the literal Son of flesh was present in the mind of God eternally as the Word. As a support of this position I Peter 1:19-20 and Revelation 13:8 are used to show that the incarnation and crucifixion were always in the plan and mind of God before even the foundation of the world. The basis of this third theory is extended out specifically as it relates to the creation of man meaning God “made man in the appearance that Jesus would have in the future.” In other words, God made man in the image of what He knew Jesus would look like. This relegates God's reference to "our" to be speaking to Jesus in a prophetical sense. He (the actual Son of Man in flesh) was not actually there, but because He was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, His presence had always been in the mind of God and therefore can be spoken of as being present at the creation (which I Peter 1:19-20 and Revelation 13:8 support).

Jesus and Creation

Another support for this theory comes from the Biblical teaching that Jesus “created the worlds, and that all things were created for His purpose” doctrine clearly supported by John 1:1-3, 10; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2-3. The thinking is that since “Jesus created the worlds,” He was present at the creation and therefore must have been the One God was speaking to. When the Bible says that Jesus created all things, it cannot mean that “Jesus the incarnate man was present at the creation.” This existence did not begin until His incarnation in approximately 6-5 B.C. Again Jesus (God made flesh) did not exist before this time. However, Jesus did preexist the incarnation as it pertains to His deity, (LISTEN) for Jesus' deity is none other than that of Yahweh Himself, the omnipresent self-existing Spirit.

Remember, John called this preexistence of Jesus “the Word”: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him [Word]; and without him was not any thing made that was made. … And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:1-3, 14 italics mine). The same Word that existed at the creation of the worlds was the Word that became flesh (Jesus Christ). (LISTEN) John identifies “the Word” as being “God Himself,” (and the Word was God) not some other God or person. Even in our world our words are an expression of our person. They are formed in us and come out of us and reveal us. It doesn’t seem like God's words can be separated from Him any more than our words can be separated from us. Again John did not stop with saying, “ and the Word was with God, but went on to point out that the Word was in fact God Himself. I would suggest strongly that Jesus existed at the creation in His deity as God, but not in flesh as a human. Therefore these scriptures have nothing to do with another "person" of the Godhead being present at the creation the way the LDS or the Trinitarians suggest. (LISTEN) They merely assert Jesus' preexistence as Yahweh.

Prophetic Dialogue and Biblical Commentary

Admittedly, and although not beyond the realm of possibility, there is not much Biblical merit to the idea that God was speaking to the Son "prophetically." I decided to check seven popular Bible commentaries and how they explained the four exceptions.

Genesis 1:26
“And God said, Let us make

The Use of Plural Pronouns in Genesis

"Man in our image, after our likeness…." Himself and His own wisdom: Trinity: Two made no comment. Genesis 3:22 “God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . . . Six commented – none mentioned to whom God was speaking.

At the building of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:7) God said, "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech." Four commented, two did not cover this part of the verse, and Trinity: 2.

And Isaiah 6:8 where God says, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Three made comments. Majestic Plural 1, Trinity 1. In the majority of these verses, the majority of Bible commentators do not commit themselves to making an opinion on exactly to whom God was referring when he said, “us,” and “our.” But if the Man Jesus was not physically at the creation, and God was not speaking of Him in some prophetic foreknowledge, and if God was not “deliberating in His own mind,” or “speaking of Himself in the majestic plural sense,” who was God speaking to?

Contrary to the interpretation of Trinitarians, we know that this first passage in Genesis 1:26 (which says) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…." cannot mean that there was anyone besides God who created.

Singular and Plural Pronouns

Yahweh said Himself, "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:24). Malachi argued, "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10). It is very clear that there is only one Creator, and He is Yahweh.

Admittedly (and truthfully) Jesus is said “to have created the worlds,” but He did so not as the Son of God but as Yahweh before the incarnation. This does not deny, however, that the worlds were created with God-incarnate in mind. Speaking of the Word of Yahweh prior to incarnation, John 1:3 says: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” Colossians 1:6 says, speaking of Jesus made flesh – “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.” So we would have to say that truly all things were made with “Christ made flesh” in the center of them, so to speak.

Interpretation of Elohim

Directly following God's use of plural pronouns in verse twenty-six, it says that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him…." But not the singularity of the passage – man was created according to “one image” (God created man in HIS own image NOT in their own image) in the image of God created He Him. So I would suggest that in this first passage of a plural pronoun that God was speaking to angels.

The grammar of these verses supports this view – which is the following: God (plural) said (third person masculine singular), “Let us make (first person common plural) man (singular masculine noun) in our image ("image" is a first person common plural suffix), after our likeness ("likeness" is a feminine singular noun with a first person common plural suffix)."3 The plural pronouns "us" and "our" must be referring to someone other than God because the verb used in connection with "God" is singular.

If God was speaking to Himself in a plural form, the pronouns would also need to be singular to modify the verb. Because the pronouns are plural in form, God was truly speaking to someone else. The very fact that God uses singular pronouns when speaking of Himself in thousands of cases causes us to question why He chose to use plural pronouns in this passage and in the other three mentioned earlier.

Now, though God (elohim) is in plural form here, it does not indicate that God is more than one. Certainly elohim can mean more than one, but if it was intended in this way here, the connecting verb would also have to be plural. In this sentence, however, the verb is singular, indicating that the elohim who is speaking is one in number. In the verses preceding Genesis 1:26 (which speak of the creative acts of God), singular pronouns are used exclusively in reference to God, and in verse twenty-six, a singular verb is used. There must therefore be some reason for this.

Angelic Presence at Creation

In verse twenty-six, two plural pronouns and a plural verb are used in connection with God. This change in usage indicates that God is now including others in His address. Now, the only beings created at this point were the angels, so it seems best to understand angels to be the recipients of God's address. LISTEN – this has been the interpretation of the Jews regarding this verse. I want to go through the four passages and explain how and why I believe this is so. Job 38:4 and 7 tell us that the angels were present at creation, so it is quite possible that God was speaking to them. He addressed the angels in a courteous manner, acknowledging that they too had an image like His. God created man in the image of Himself, an image shared by the angels also.

Angels and the Image of God

Two objections pop up at this point: First, “How could angels be said to have an image or likeness to God?” and Second, “How could angels help God create man?” So first, “How could angels be said to have an image or likeness to God?” It seems best to see the "image" in which man was created to be one of moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities rather than any physical qualities or similarities. God and angels both possess all of these attributes that men have. Sometimes we view angels as android beings created by God that have no choice but to serve Him in holiness and righteousness, being emotionless, and have no way of thinking for themselves. This is an unbiblical view. Peter said angels are interested in the activities of the church when he said concerning the gospel being preached with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, "which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:12).

(Remember when we covered that passage?) We see from this verse that angels do have a will of their own by the fact that they desire to look into these things. We don’t read that God commanded them to do this, but they have a desire to do so. I would suggest that this indicates that angels have an emotional spectrum and intellectual independence. They have spiritual qualities in that they worship God and moral qualities in that they choose to stay pure.

Angelic Role in Creation

The second objection to this postulation is “How could angels help God create man?” It doesn’t seem that angels participated in the creation of man in any way but they did participate in some way in the making of man. The Hebrew word translated "make" in Genesis 1:26 is asah. The Hebrew word meaning "create" is bara. Angels do not have the power to create anything, but might have shared in the making of man from the dust of the ground. Vine's comparison and contrast of the two Hebrew words is helpful in this as it says: In Genesis 1:26-27…asah must mean creation from nothing, since it is used as a synonym for bara'. The text reads, "Let us make [asah] man in our image, after our likeness…. So God created [bara'] man in his own image…." Similarly, Genesis 2:4 says: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara'], in the day that the Lord God made [`asah] the earth and the heavens."

Finally, Genesis 5:1 also equates the two as follows: "In the day that God created [bara'] man, in the likeness of God made [asah] he him." Therefore the unusual juxtaposition of “bara'” and “asah” in Genesis 2:3 refers to the totality of creation, which God had "created" by "making." We really can’t overly refine the meaning of “`asah” to suggest that it means “creation from something,” (as opposed to creation from nothing) because only context determines this special nuance. It can mean either, depending upon the situation. So, and in other words, that the creation consisted of “creating” and “making” can be seen in Genesis 2:3-4.

LISTEN CLOSELY: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created [bara] and made [asah]. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara], in the day that the LORD God made [asah] the earth and the heavens." I would suggest that there is something significant between the use of the words “bara” "create" and “asah” made. The word bara carries the thought of the

Understanding Creation: The Role of "Bara" and "Asah"

Initiation of the object involved. It always connotes what only God can do and frequently emphasizes the absolute newness of the object created. But the word asah is much broader in scope, connoting primarily the fashioning of the object with little concern for special nuances. The use of bara in the opening statement in the account of creation seems to carry the implication that the physical phenomena came into existence at that time and had no previous existence in the form in which they were created by divine fiat. But the use of “asah” may simply connote the act of fashioning the objects involved in the whole creative process.

Psalm 86:9, using “asah” says: “All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.” And Psalm 95:5 “The sea is his, and he made it (asah): and his hands formed the dry land.”

So, taking all of this in, we might best understand the creation of man in a two-fold manner. He was both “made” and “created.” He was made (asah) in that his body came from the dust of the ground (earth). The earth was already created by God, so Adam was made from a substance which was already created. He might also be said to have been created (bara) in that "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and He [Adam] became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). The life invested into the body was a creation of God – certainly a creation which the angels could not participate in.

The Role of Angels in Creation

Because angels could not actually create man, it might be wondered why God even bothered speaking to them concerning man. There are a couple of possibilities. First of all, God might have addressed them because of their very presence at this amazing time. Secondly, He addressed them to declare His intentions of making man in their image as well as His: a moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional image. Maybe this was instructive and important to them and their work among us as heavenly beings. After God allowed the angels to participate in the making of man, He (alone) created in him “a living soul” (mind will and emotion) by breathing His creative breath into them and man – at this point – possessed the “image of God” and of the angels created before him.

The angels' participation in “the making of man” might be compared to the manner in which believers work miracles. Jesus said, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Or maybe the parallel is when Jesus told His apostles to go and “make disciples.” The apostles were laboring but God is who recreates us all – not the Apostles – even though when Jesus said these things He said them in the imperative as if it was our responsibility to see that it come about.

Plural Pronouns in Genesis

Let’s talk about the second plural pronoun found in Genesis 3:22. It has a similar grammatical structure to that of Genesis 1:26: "God (plural) said (third person masculine singular), Behold, the man is become as one of us (first person common plural), to know good and evil." Here again we see a “singular verb being used with plural pronouns.” Thus far we know that those to whom God spoke had an image that was like His.

We can also say that to whomever God said this that they could be considered to be enough like God to the extent that He could say to them or him, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." It might be argued that angels do not know the difference between good and evil or that at least before the fall of man they didn't know the difference. But this idea is based off of the idea that angels are holy androids with no will of their own. If angels could not sin, then Lucifer and the other multitudes of angels that rebelled against God could have never actually done so. God would have had to have made them rebel against Him. I would suggest that angels knew the difference between good and evil before man ever sinned. This knowledge was just as much a part of their nature as it was God's. They had no tree from which to choose. They did not have to commit evil to know evil just as God never had to commit evil to know the difference between evil and

Angelic Interaction in Biblical Passages

In support of the idea that God addressed His angels in this passage, notice that immediately after man's disobedience and sin, God evicted them from the Garden of Eden and stationed cherubims at the east end of the Garden to block its entrance from man. In other words, angelic activity surrounded God's new creation. That God was addressing angels in Genesis 3:22 flows with the rest of the context, not being hindered by it whatsoever.

Genesis 11:7

Okay, Genesis 11:7. The grammar of Genesis 11:7 is even more conclusive that God must have been addressing angels when He spoke using the first person plural pronoun "our" or "us." The grammar of this verse is as follows: "Go to (second person masculine singular), let us go down (first person common plural) and there confound (first person common plural) their language." "Go to" is an imperative in the Hebrew language. God was giving a command to the one or ones to whom He was speaking. If these "our" and "us" passages are referring to God speaking to a manifestation of His Spirit or “the Son” in some way, then we have a case of one divine person commanding another divine person to do something. One can only be commanded to do a thing because they are “subordinate to” or of an “inferior rank” to the one doing the commanding. If God was speaking to deity, then this deity was less (in some manner) than God. Remember, GO TO is an imperative command in the Hebrew. Only bosses use GO TO and the presence of a Boss eliminates co-equality – and the important key to this would be inequality prior to the Word becoming flesh! Of course, I think this passage proves God is speaking to created angels and not His word or a subordinate Spirit person. Apparently, God was only speaking to one being because "go to" is in “the second person singular.” What God was saying was, "You (singular) go to…." Apparently, God was accompanied by only one angel to confound the languages at Babel. Should it seem strange that the Lord would choose to have angels accompany Him, remember the story of Abraham's encounter with God (Genesis 18). He was visited by three men: one of which turned out to be a theophany of the Lord, and the other two were angels (10, 13-17; 19:1). In any case, this is how I would explain this third instance of the plural pronoun associated with our One God.

Isaiah 6:8

The final Scripture in which God used a plural pronoun in connection with Himself is Isaiah 6:8, which, again, has God say: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" The grammar of this verse is this: “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send (first person common singular), and who will go for us (first person common plural)?" (LISTEN!) The singular verb cannot have a plural pronoun as its antecedent. Again, God must be addressing someone else in this statement. Whatever the situation, we know (again) that it was only God who was going to do the sending. When we look at the context of the rest of chapter six we see that there is a lot of angelic activity (verses 2-3 and verses 6-7) so it is not strange to think that the Lord was addressing angels.

What is strange is the fact that God would ask the angels for a plan of action to take against the rebels at the Tower of Babel. Does God ask for anyone else's advice? Even though God does not need advice, it is evident that He does sometimes seek after it. In fact, there is a detailed account of God corresponding with angels to come up with a plan of action in I Kings 22:19-23. In verse 19 Micaiah the prophet told Ahab and Jehoshaphat that he "saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left." This is clearly an assembling of the angels. The purpose for this meeting was to discuss a plan of action to bring about Ahab's death. Verse 20 has the Lord pose the question to the angelic host, "Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?" There seems to have been an actual debate indicated by the line, "And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner." Finally, an angel came up with a

The Involvement of Angels in God's Plans

A way to persuade Ahab to which God agreed. Verse 21 tells us that this plan was he was to be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets. In verse 22, the Lord gave him permission to do this saying, "Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so." If the Lord wants the input of His angels before executing His plan, that is His prerogative. All we know is that God does on some occasions, and for whatever reasons, consult with His angels and involve them on His "missions."

Which to me is even more proof of who God has been speaking to in these four passages. Although not beyond the realm of possibility, the first three theories we discussed do not carry enough Biblical or grammatical support to be considered valid explanations. When considering the Hebrew grammar behind these verses, angels seem to be the best candidates for the identity of those included in the "us" and "our" statements made by God. If this IS the case, we ought to rethink applying them as evidence of three uncreated, co-eternal, co-equal personages that make up the one true God of the Trinity.

Personal Experiences and Testimonies

Hi Shawn, I discovered Heart Of The Matter over a year ago when I had satellite tv, more recently I am listening to your live stream and the HOTMTV archives. I was raised Catholic and became a follower of Jesus Christ years after I left the church. I see how the Catholic church also teaches false doctrine by their wrongful interpretation of the bible and tradition. I now attend a nondenominational church here in Ohio. I feel it is extremely important to reach out to the members of these false churches because I believe many will end up in hell by just going through the motions and not trusting in Christ alone for their salvation. I am very thankful for your biblical teachings and your ministry. I believe you were called by God to open the eyes of the Mormon people and many many others through Heart of the Matter. After 40 years I am still learning from the word of God and you have helped me with my Christian walk quite a bit. Thank you and keep up the good work.

I look forward to meeting you next time I head out west. God Bless! Rog.

Seeking Answers for Religious Questions

From: Jim Barnum

Subject: question

Message Body:

I served as first councilor to a bishop that is a very close friend. I started to question while in the bishopric and it didn't take long for my eyes to be opened. Now my friend and I have discussions about the church once in a while. He claims to be open about it and says that he would love it if he was sure that the church wasn't true and he didn't have to do all that work and keep all the laws and ordinances. When it comes down to it he really does not hear what I have to tell him, he just asked what is wrong with what he is doing and asked if I think he will not be saved. What do I tell him other than things like is it okay to follow the devils instruction to cover yourself in the temple or is okay to follow a false prophet? I would like some good answers for his question. If anyone can help it would be appreciated,

thanks,

Jim

RESPONSE

Jim, I would say something like this to your friend. Religion is religion is religion. If religion could save a man then God would have probably stopped at the religion established with the House of Israel. But it couldn't do the job. Why? Because humans are sinful. So He sent His Son to do the job. And that Son said a couple of important things when He was here. First He said, "Unless a person is born from above He cannot see the Kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future.." So, friend, have you been born from above? I don't care if you are LDS or Catholic or Protestant, have you been born-from-above, of the Spirit, regenerated? The second thing Jesus said (to the Pharisees was), "If you don't believe that I AM (a title borrowed from the Old Testament) you will die in your sins." So, friend, do you believe that Jesus is the I AM from a heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The third thing I would ask him would be if he thinks that all of his religious practices and rites are somehow helping him meet expectations God has given him in order to be saved or

The Challenge of Justification by the Law

Exalted. If he says no, I'd say, then carry on brother. But if he says yes I would remind him that both Paul and James make a point very clear in scripture: If a person seeks to be justified before God by the Law they must keep all of the Law perfectly because the Law is not obeyed in parts but as a whole. So a person either keeps all of the Law (ordinances, rites, rituals, demands) perfectly and will be justified by this obedience OR – if they fail in just one point – they are guilty of breaking the whole thing. These are the questions I would ask him in the face of his question.

Shawn

Prayers and Comfort

From: Kaitlyn Rosas

Subject: Prayers and Comfort

Message Body:

Hi Shawn,

Praise the Lord for being born again! I have been born again a couple of months ago and I now know what it means to live. Part of my story involves my husband seeing your book "Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity Face to Face" on Amazon. At the time, I hadn't become born again or denounced the Book of Mormon. I was very reluctant to accept that I did not know truth yet but I knew at the same time that I had to be honest with myself and be right with God. My husband and I both read your book and I became born again soon after.

The reason I mention this is because my family still reads the Book of Mormon and this had been a heated topic of discussion between my husband and I. Since I've been born again, I have tried to witness to one of my sisters and she has still yet to come to truth. We are praying for her that God will work on her heart and she will listen. I have also since gotten a tattoo of a cross with three roses to represent the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I showed it to my parents with hopes of witnessing to them. My dad didn't say much and my mom was most excited about how pretty the roses looked. My husband and I are still praying for them as well.

A Family's Struggle

The reason I am reaching out to you is for some advice. My family is in a situation that not many people come across. My dad led my family out of the LDS church when I was 16. Though that is not uncommon, the reason may be. My father believes that he is a prophet and that he found this revelation in 1 or 2 Nephi, I forget which. I don't know many details but I know now that he is a false one.

I know that God is great and that He can do anything. My father was also diagnosed with colon cancer about two years ago. I feel very convicted having blindly followed my dad for years and I don't talk to him very often. I guess you could say I keep him at arms length (if not longer sometimes). Yet every time I see him, I also feel guilty that I don't spend more time with him before it is his time to go. I want to witness to him but I feel like sometimes he is so convinced of who he thinks he is that he might not come to Christ.

I don't want to give up on him and I know that God can work on his heart. I hate to admit it but I almost feel like sometimes it is useless. I also feel that since my mom and sisters listen to my dad that if he comes to Christ, they will too. I'm also afraid that if this were to happen, my mom and sisters would come to Christ for the wrong reasons.

Any words of comfort or advice on how to approach this? Prayers and confidentiality would be appreciated. God bless you, your family, and your ministry. Thank you.

-Kaitlyn

Encouragement from Australia

From: Cade

Subject: Great work

Message Body:

I have watched many of your YouTube uploads and you have such a unique testimony. Be encouraged and keep up the great work Praising Jesus. I have many LDS door knockers and you show has helped me.

Love ya mate God bless

Cade from Australia.