Heart of the Matter on Mormonism and Christianity

LIVE!
From the “Mecca of Mormonism”
SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH
This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology.!
“Where Mormonism Meets Christianity Face to Face.”

Show 41 No Jesus, Know Hell
September 30th 2008

And I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.
Streaming Video Announcement
HOTM.TV

Broadcasting Platform

AM 820 The Truth!
Listen to Heart of the Matter every Tuesday night from 8-9pm

(hold up sign)
820 AM The Truth –

Got Truth?
Go to 820 AM KUTR The Truth

Really have great programming for Christians seeking to know the Word, and for seekers seeking to know the Lord.

Christian Assemblies and Services

Christian Assemblies Meeting to Prayerfully Understand Scripture – CAMPUS
Is now underway somewhere near your home (if you live in the SLC area or north).

Join us Sunday Mornings at the University of Utah from 9:15 to 10:15 am.

Then, we offer three simultaneous services every Sunday night from 7 pm to 8 pm.
All on University Campuses:

• The UofU at the Web building.
• Weber State.
• Utah State at the Nutrition and Science Building (or Aggie Ice Cream Building) at 725 North 12000 East room 202.

Use us as a supplement to your regular church attendance OR as your own church if you are looking for one. We go verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. through the Bible and we are just going to begin the Passion week of the Lord in Matthew. Just come on over and see. (Oh, and relax. You can come if you are LDS, you can bring your quads, just come and see.)

Reflections on Faith and Doctrine

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER
PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

I am fairly certain that tonight’s show will ruffle the feathers of my Christian brothers and sisters more than any other show we have done. In the quest for truth and resolution, it is vital that the sword we wield is no respecter of persons and cuts both ways. The importance of this topic – and how it relates to the LDS – will be apparent in a minute.

It’s important to recall Joseph Smith was not raised by parents who had little interest in religion. From what I can tell, they were passionate on the subject, with his mother Lucy Mack Smith bordering, at times, on appearing fanatic and his father, Joseph Smith Senior, a maverick seeker of spiritual – if not religious – truth.

The religious environment to which Joseph Jr. was exposed early and frequently in his life also contributed to his religious make-up – which included prejudices and disappointments which came directly from certain errant Christian beliefs which were popular then – and even today. I suggest that it is quite probable that Joseph Smith Jr. created a number of non-biblical doctrines in direct response to the fanatical, dogmatic, errant teachings that were passed along to him by many of the so-called Christians of his day.

Obviously, I am not to saying ALL Christians embraced or promoted such false doctrine – in fact, it was probably very much like today where just a few wackos distort Jesus to the rest of the world – and from the history and retelling of Joseph Smith Jr. life, we know some did. Including – and especially – some clergy. One of these teachings was that if a person was not baptized (even by the right denomination) they were going to hell. This is as false today it was false then.

Historical Context

When Joseph was just seventeen years old, two months after he was supposedly to have first gone to the hill Cumorah, his older brother Alvin died unexpectedly. Now historical records show that Alvin became a sort-of surrogate father in the Smith home as Joseph Sr. was a tad bit unreliable. Alvin tended to a family store they once operated, used a seer stone to search for buried treasure, and was one of the most excited in the family about the tale of there being gold plates. In fact, as it is recorded in Manuscript History of Joseph Smith, Alvin’s presence was even required of the Lord at the hill Cumorah in order to obtain the plates. But then he died of a stomach ailment and all of this was now going to change.

Joseph thought very highly of his older brother, and wrote of him:
“He was the oldest member of my father’s family. He lived without spot from the time he was a child. From the time of his birth he never knew mirth. He was candid and sober and never knew play. He minded his mother and father in toiling all day. He was one of the soberest men and when he died, and angel of the Lord visited him in his last moments.” I get the sense that Joseph…

Joseph Smith's Teachings on the Afterlife

Jr., while being well aware of his own propensities toward fantasy and tomfoolery, respected his older brother immensely, and his deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. served as a tremendous and life-numbing blow to the Smith family. So this is the settling. Then guess who shows up on the scene shortly after Alvin’s passing? Some compassionless, dogmatic preacher who tells Joseph’s mother that Alvin went to hell because he hadn’t received the proper baptism! Sometimes I am just floored by the fact that some people think they are in a position to speak for God.

Naturally, Joseph, who was not about to let such an insensitive fool ruin his mother's peace, later produced a doctrine and practice that would solve such painful issues. This doctrine was the vicarious baptism for the dead. In my estimation, short-sighted as it may be, Joseph loved men – especially his family – more than He loved God Himself, and he had the audacity to say almost anything if it would grant them some semblance of peace and security in this life. This made him a hero in these wanting people's eyes; a savior if you will.

Dogmatic Beliefs Challenged

The other foolish dogmatic position many Christians maintained then (and still do today) was the totally illogical – and I would say absolutely unbiblical – belief that the people who have never heard the name Jesus or Christ or have had the chance to hear His gospel – including savages and children – go straight to hell at death. I am going to spend the rest of my time tonight refuting this insipid teaching because I believe that as a response to it, Joseph (once again) introduced more non-biblical fail-safe teaching straight from his imagination – more vicarious temple rituals for the departed.

Now before you decide that I’m a heretic, hear me out – I am not a universalist by any stretch of the imagination. I accept hell as a literal place and I accept that many will go there. I believe hell is eternal, burning, and a place of everlasting torment. And I would never, ever suggest that there is any way anyone can enter heaven outside of or in addition to faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. But I would without pause deny the non-biblical heresy that God creates certain people specifically for hell or that there have been, are, or will be, people – including children and savages – who have never heard of Jesus and/or His gospel, that God will thrust into hell.

Biblical Support and Interpretation

Unaware of Jesus in this life? = Hell
God is Just, and all of us justly deserve hell as all of us have sinned against Him.
Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

There is no name under heaven whereby men (and women) can be saved.
Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Finally, most people on this side of the scales ardently stick to the verse that says:
Must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth to be saved.
They know this from Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Other Biblical Factors

God is merciful too. So while all might deserve hell according to our universal sinful condition, God is ALSO merciful, and seeks our good. In Jeremiah 29:11, God said:
“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”

He also said through Paul in 1st Timothy 2:3
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

So true. And a just and merciful God, acting within the propitiation of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, will judge all men and women justly, mercifully, and in accordance to their response to what was given and received!

Levels of Knowledge and God's Revelations

I count correctly, there are seven levels of knowledge whereby God reveals Himself and His Law to us.

The first way is He is written on nature.

Psalms 19:1 says:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

The savage, untaught and unapproached for ages has witnessed God above and around Him, and through resignation to this witness, conforms himself to a greater, higher power.

The second way God reveals Himself to us is He has written Himself on our consciences. Break the word “conscience” down – con means “with” and science means “knowledge.” Each and everyone of us has some modicum of conscience with which we operate in life. Most of us know when we sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. – though we will bury and rationalize this knowledge as best we can. If we sin and don’t recognize it as such, this places us (again) squarely on earth as sinful creaters, doesn’t it?

Romans 2:15 says:

“Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.”

The third way God has revealed Himself and His Law is He wrote them in stone! Exodus 24:12 reminds us of His ways, and as God so moves, even more specifically. Now we are starting to move toward a justification for people going straight to hell. But in ways one and two there is only acquiescence to a higher invisible God – and acknowledgement without specific knowledge. But this third way is ten specific commandments from a specific God. We used to hear and read these commandments even in our schools. But it is another way all of us are somehow aware of Him and His ways – and another way to convict and convince us that we need a savior.

Revelation Through the Bible

The fourth way God reveals Himself – and this is very specific – is through His Word – the Bible. This is His manual. Many, many people open it and have their minds and eyes see what their heart has always known!

Hebrews 4:12 reads:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But God gives His Word not only to convict, but also to support.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now we are really getting into some hell business.

The fifth way God has given us His divine Law was through the incarnation of His Son!

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The author and FINISHER of our faith! Deny Him, reject Him, refuse Him – Hell. Period.

God's Law in the Heart

The sixth way God reveals Himself is through the Law that was written on our hearts. You see, when we accept Jesus as our Savior, the law written on stone tablets somehow gets transferred, clarified, and expanded – into every believer's heart. God promised in Zechariah and reiterated in Hebrews 8:10.

Hebrew 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

The final or seventh way God reveals Himself is through the outward lives of believers!

2nd Corinthians 3:2-3 says:

“Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.”

Do I believe in hell for people who turn from the evidences presented to them in all seven of God’s revelations –

Nature?
Conscience?
Tablets of Stone?
Scripture?
Jesus Himself?
Personal witness?
Personal witnesses?

Absolutely. Without Question. This is why we preach and teach and reach to all who will hear.

But do I believe in hell for people who HAVE responded to nature, their conscience, the tablets of stone and or scripture if they have had them who have never heard the name Jesus?

Never!

Such a belief would NEVER match with God’s mercy OR the avenues He has provided to those who have not.

Understanding Salvation and the Name of Jesus

Heard of His beautiful name. Which leads us to a proof-text some use to say otherwise:

Again, what Christian could ever disagree? But where does it say in the Bible that this salvation – this grace – cannot be applied to them who believed according to what they have been given? Nowhere!

Every Knee Shall Bow

We know from scripture that every knee shall bow, but what says the verse?

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.” Phillipians 2:10

Now, some will maintain, that the actual Anglican name Jesus must be spoken and confessed with the human mouth while in the body in order for it to save each individual human spirit. What about the Hispanics who pronounce the word, Heyseus? Does this work? Now Jesus is not even the Lord’s name, you see. I love the name because of what it conveys and means, but His name was Yeshua, Joshua, which because Iesous in the Greek, which became Jesus in the English. Do you see the trouble with making this teaching a sticking point? God is SO MUCH BIGGER THAN THIS.

You know, when I think of or try and relate to Jesus in His flesh – when I seek to understand Him and love Him as a guy with a mole on his right foot, and a certain gait, and a specific way he said certain words, I cannot relate to Him at all. The ontological Jesus remains fairly unknown to me. But where I will literally fall down and worship at the sound of His name – angelicalized or not – is when I think of who He is, His spirit, His heavenly identity – as God.

If Jesus was NOT GOD, then all who resonate to nature and conscience who have never heard His name would go to hell OR a system in the after life would need to be installed so they could learn His name, right? But if Jesus was GOD, then the being the savage is relating to in nature and conscience is still Jesus, and there is no need for some after-life school. Get it?

The Implications of Knowing the Name

Joseph Smith agreed with the false notion that people had to know the name of Jesus itself (as well as the Mormon doctrines) to go to heaven and too smart to embrace the illogical notion that if even the savages didn’t they would burn in hell, he established an after-death system where they would get the “chance” to hear and learn of His name (and of the LDS church). This system might seem fair and the product of an equitable and merciful God – if it were true and not wholly illogical on so many grounds we can’t address them now.

But know this: The Bible is clear that this life is the time appropriated for us to meet and accept God, and He has provided a number of ways for this to occur. Those who do – with what they have been given – are present with the Lord by the grace of God. Those who do not, go to hell.

Again, so true. But read this verse carefully. How does a loving and merciful God in whom we are to trust expect someone who has never heard of the Lord Jesus to believe in Him or confess Him? He doesn’t. But when the savage or heathen confesses God due to his or her conscience or experience with nature, Jesus is confessed.

I want to conclude with an interesting passage in 1st Timothy 4:10. Here Paul writes: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.

I am uncertain of what this really means, but I do believe Paul clearly states that God, the Savior of ALL Men, ESPECIALLY saves them that believe. To me, this verse, and others, give room for the horrific teaching that all go to hell – children, savages, heathens – who die without knowing the name of Jesus.

1st Timothy 4:10

Let’s go to the Phones:

(801) 973-8820
(801) 973-TV20

EMAILS

CONCLUSION