Faith without religion.
Navigating Parables and Principles: Unpacking Matthew Chapter 12
Parables, Sabbath, Holy Spirit
In a recent discussion, Shawn and Delaney explored the nuances of biblical interpretation, focusing on Matthew Chapter 12. They emphasized the importance of understanding the context and cultural background of biblical texts, particularly when interpreting parables and teachings of Jesus. Shawn highlighted how Jesus challenged the rigid interpretations of the law by religious leaders of his time, using examples like David and the ox in the mire to illustrate that the law was meant to serve humanity, not oppress it.
The conversation also delved into the complexities of understanding the Book of Revelation, noting that a deep comprehension of Hebrew thought and scripture is essential. Shawn and Delaney discussed the idea of having an intermediary text to better understand the Bible, but concluded that faith, rather than textual exactness, is what God desires.
They touched on the concept of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, a topic that has puzzled many scholars. Shawn explained that this refers to a persistent rejection of the Spirit’s work in leading individuals to faith in Jesus, rather than a specific unforgivable sin.
The discussion also covered the metaphor of good and bad trees producing corresponding fruit, emphasizing that this teaching was relevant to the agrarian society of Jesus’s time and served as a way to discern the true nature of individuals and leaders.
Overall, the dialogue underscored the importance of seeking a deeper understanding of scripture through context and faith, rather than relying solely on literal interpretations or external texts.
Podcast Transcript:
okay yes okay Hey listen we just want
you to know we’ve been talking about
editing here you know we don’t edit we
don’t prepare we don’t edit and I don’t
like it why because it’s it’s it’s
constructing things we want you to see
so it’s perfect we just want to talk
okay so no editing good thing Matthew
chapter 12. hmm
a parable
it’s very parably this chapter and
they’re great and I said I talk about
them I need some clarification
um Jesus went through the green fields
on the Sabbath with his disciples they
were hungry started eating the grain
they’re called out by Pharisees for not
obeying the law yeah Jesus’s refute is
where my question is he cites
individuals from the Past who broke the
law as justification for him doing it
now yeah which is David
and Moses I think too yeah
yeah the ox and the mire
David she was hungry
um yeah have you not read
yeah I can cut to the chase he’s go
ahead he cites from David who when his
men were hungry they went into the
Tabernacle and they ate of a bread that
was only reserved for the priests okay
why they were hungry they were in need
he cites Moses under the law that if you
had an ox on us on a Sabbath day that
fell into the mud who wouldn’t go and
rescue the ox who would wait for the
Sabbath to end and then he says the
Sabbath was made for man not man for the
Sabbath by the time they got to his day
and age the Jew the religious leaders
were like you’ve got to obey no matter
what we don’t care if you’re starving
you need to suffer until we don’t care
if your animal fell on the thing and he
cites hey look it this is a law for man
you know it’s to help you think about
God move to God but God doesn’t expect
you to let your animals die in the mud
you know so don’t be so extreme you know
and they’d become very extreme to the
point where he and his guys were going
through and they’re taking wheat because
they’re hungry on the Sabbath and Jesus
doesn’t stop them well that was
considered threshing working on the
Sabbath so that that’s what it was he
was just showing them you have taken
what is given by God for good things and
you’ve turned it into oppression
I just it’s becoming more clear to me
over our discussions that the law before
Jesus’s time was looser than
then it’s made out to seem yeah like it
was looser yeah yeah and it was more to
get them to show their love for God by
their obedience to that law not for the
law to make them holy and not for them
to serve it but for them to show by
obeying the things of the law that they
really did love God there’s a difference
between those two approaches yeah which
is like
still the same in Jesus’s time it’s
still the same now yeah and like the law
of love is to show God yes
yeah I just thought it was more like
dues don’ts dues don’t at least back
then I thought there was like a specific
like shift with Jesus that
it went from dues Jones that are
condemned that condemn to Grace through
Jesus it was a bit of that but like
nothing is just singular yes it’s like a
bunch of orbiting thoughts and reasons
that bring this about you get it so it’s
just not black and white which is more
so again why this doesn’t feel like it’s
to us because it feels like it’s you
have to know it right yeah there’s like
so many moving parts that are like
really specific to them that
uh yeah okay so now keep that in mind
forget what we’re reading and jump out
to the Book of Revelation okay okay
because to understand that book you have
to really truly understand the Hebrew
mind the Hebrew language and the Hebrew
scripture because in Revelation
everything that John has shown is is in
harmony with Hebrew thought and if
you’re a person who’s a gentile in 2015
reading Revelation and think you can
understand it like in some you’re insane
and that’s why we’ve had so much problem
with that book is because people don’t
know how to understand it
I this seems Blasphemous to say but it
almost feels like there could be a
better book
than the Bible right now that like is
the mediator of the Bible to us
by people who know that language you
know what I mean I do I would agree with
you if that is our source to be saved by
but it’s not and that’s where we lose we
think that the writing is what it makes
us the writing just teaches us the
principles but that’s why it’s because
we’re not saved by it that it would be
night it would be even more useful to
have an intermediary text and so then
what would we do if we had that
intermediary text that was more on the
nose and more explicit we would have
less faith
we were because it would be more exact
so what false religions have done have
said yeah no one’s getting what this
Bible is saying let’s come up with a new
revelation Joseph Smith Book of Mormon
Doctrine Cummins Pearl a great price
Muhammad let’s come up with the Quran
which will be the final Testament we
like the Bible but let’s bring in what
will clarify what really is meant but
the point is God wants us by the spirit
to acquiesce to faith not by becoming
scribes of written words so what it says
to me is this is less meaningful in the
sense and we don’t need something
written but we do need to understand
what is and it’s possible because this
is the only book I’ve studied to come to
these conclusions yeah I assume I I’m
not implying like a
maybe I’m thinking like Revelations on
Revelation
annotations or like this just described
more right well we try to do that but
then you have to say well who do you
trust yeah I’ve come up with Revelation
and Revelations it’s a it’s an approach
it’s something that people read but
anybody who reads in t right or some
other scholar they’re going to say yeah
they disagree with you so it’s really
really tough yeah Seekers find is the
point do you think that God wanted the
Bible to exist
yeah
because I think that it’s his greatest
material gift to the world post-jesus
because the the writings of the Old
Testament are really profound okay and
they help us to understand what the
apostles were talking about but I do
think that God would be uh uh probably
like you guys are getting this all wrong
but we always get everything wrong you
look through the course of history human
beings get everything he does wrong yeah
so it’s probably a case like that but
for those who want to use it as some way
to diligently seek him and then start to
see it in the proper way by the spirit I
think it’s a good thing
um a good thing but something he’s using
as good yeah maybe not intended though
like actually
wanted it to be these books collected I
don’t know I don’t know I mean any
Evangelical would say oh yeah yeah yeah
these are it but we have a lot of other
books that aren’t included like we’ve
talked about and included and not
I don’t know and we also have the fact
that
because of low literary rates literacy
rates and because of the Advent of the
printing press wasn’t until 1500s that
all the people for 15 didn’t have a
Bible in their hands and couldn’t read
it it was the spirit and that today
there are people in places who don’t
have a Bible and can’t read it and yet
they can still come to Faith so that’s
the other side to show it’s not
necessary but it can be a gift if you
take it in the right Spirit okay
okay
um
okay so when Jesus heals a man with a
withered hand
the Pharisees sort of see it as a final
straw begin to take counsel against him
um when Jesus flees many followed him he
healed them in order to make them not
known my question is where
is where he says this is fulfilling
something in Isaiah describing it and he
says it’s bringing Justice to the
Gentiles healing them yeah I’d have to
look at the reference to see what Isaiah
meant but he’s citing the Old Testament
again Matthew to show the Jews and it’s
he’s just using uh Isaiah’s reference
there to show that he is the one doing
it but I’d have to look at the reference
in Isaiah not this reference yeah
um
I just sorry but I still don’t get how
is that bringing Justice I don’t know I
I don’t know okay okay all right
um okay there’s another picture that
happens I’m curious
um the final line that he uses to
summarize this Parable a demoniac or
maybe it’s not terrible demoniac is
brought to him and Jesus healed him the
Pharisees responded it by saying he’s
basically
of the devil and he says why like if I’m
of the devil why would I cast a demon
out yeah right yeah
um every and then he says every Kingdom
divided against itself is laid waste no
City or house divided against himself
will stand
what I wonder is that it leads him
concluding by saying he who is not with
me is against me he just who does not
gather with me scatters therefore I tell
you every sin and blasphemy will be
forgiven by men but the blossom against
the spirit will not be forgiven yeah
whoever says a word against the son of
man will you forgive it and whoever
speaks against the holy spirit will not
be forgiven I’m confused by that for two
reasons why does this discussion of him
proving he’s not the devil first let
lead him to saying he who is not with me
is against me okay do you know what I
mean yeah so
staying on that one okay he does the
healing right cast The Demon out the
religious leader says you did that
because you’re the devil
and he’s like
a kingdom can’t stand that’s divided
against itself if I’m the devil What Am
I Casting Devils out for yeah doesn’t
make any sense okay that’s all he’s
saying there right okay next question no
but then why does that lead him to say
he who is not with me is against me
because if you’re not United in the
cause you know if you’re divided then
it’s going to cause the kingdom to fall
so you’ve got to be all together in this
cause if you want to stand that’s the
the next logical thought okay yeah and
then immediately after why does it
leading to say but you can blasting me
but not the spirit yeah that’s so weird
it is this is another one this is a
tough one because most Christian
scholars believe that blasphemy against
God that cannot ever be forgiven ever
is if you say Jesus did Miracles by the
power of the devil because that’s that’s
how they see the context that’s what
they say but I’m not understanding this
okay they take the context of all that
okay and they say if you want to commit
sin that can’t be forgiven ever
is you say that Jesus did Miracles by
the power of the devil that’s blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit that’s what they
say that’s how they Define it because
that’s the context of how this is said
okay okay but if you really look at
everything what’s really being said is
Jesus says look it I’m a Man from
Nazareth you can say I’m born of a I’m a
bastard you can say anything you want
against me but when you blaspheme
against the Holy Spirit whose job
is to have you believe on me
and you say forget that
your lack of belief on me which is the
holy spirit’s job to do will not be
forgiven here or in the world to come
meaning you can’t you cannot be forgiven
for faithlessness the only way to be
forgiven for faithlessness is to come to
Faith
so as long as you are faithless you’ll
never be forgiven but if you come to
Faith you will be forgiven so that’s
what he’s saying there and it’s a long
thing it’s another difficult one but
that is what is being said there but
it’s different it’s specifically
difficult because of how he
distinguishes himself from the spirit
that’s
because I’m a human being you can say
what you want about me you know you see
my brothers and you see me you know but
the holy spirit is a spiritual Factor
yeah that God is working on you with and
if you reject it
and its desire to make you believe
you’re in trouble the spirit just remind
me it had it was existing in the world
at that point right it was existing in
that world ever since the fall but it
existed around people drawing inspiring
people but it was never in their heart
oh yeah and so Noah is now by belief
that’s when the Holy Spirit comes in and
you have the Breath of God like you
breathe in Adam now breathes into you a
Believer but them with Jesus not yet not
yet because it hadn’t Fallen yet Jesus
hasn’t been resurrected to cleanse the
heart of man and take care of the sin of
the world for the Holy Spirit to be able
to end well so at this point the holy
spirit is not inside people it’s this
outside calling them but the spirit did
the only time the spirit was really
talked about
and he it descended at Jesus’s baptism
on him so it’s in his heart oh yeah him
he that was his anointing of the Holy
Spirit to start his ministry okay yeah
and that’s uh that’s a picture for like
the spirit will come into us in that
same way to start
and when that happens it’s replicated by
what happened at Pentecost which we’ll
read about in the book of Acts but
that’s down the road it’s after Jesus
leaves that that occurs so right now
they are not operating by us the spirit
of God within them it’s only the spirit
of God callings them and Jesus teaching
them the spirit will then move in later
and Empower them and there’s a big
difference between the spirit being
outside of you and governing you and the
spirit being in you and living in you
because when the spirit it moves into
you you then become full Adam again you
become Body Soul and Spirit and
therefore you’re empowered from within
to be able to do the will of God versus
you don’t have it inward yet if it’s
outside of you it’s just occurring to me
that Jesus is not the one that talks
about being born again it is Jesus
he talks about having being born again
Nicodemus he does you must be born from
above
yeah
but that’s not possible to those people
not yet yeah so it’s coming yeah now we
say it’s not possible
there’s always exceptions to everything
there will come a time later on where
Jesus breathes on his Apostles and he
says you have received the Holy Spirit
but it’s through Jesus it’s through
Jesus but it’s still
pre-pentecost when the Holy Spirit Falls
officially that this situation does
happen so there’s always little tricks
in there could somebody have the Holy
Spirit within them well here’s where we
get into big trouble John the Baptist
from his mother’s womb said he was
filled with the holy spirit that breaks
the whole rule but we talk about
generalities and things with specifics
being in the hands of God
yeah sorry you can’t get everything
perfect
that yep
I’ll go to like it
you’ll appreciate the willy-nilliness of
God
but it’s far less willy-nilly than I
would think like
it’s so one-to-one material oh yeah and
that’s why
that makes sense to me like it is a
complete story Jesus
your whole ideas about Jesus the Trinity
or oh yeah whatever it’s called not
Trinity
um or like even just a need for Jesus
being the material intercessor of us and
then Jesus having the spirit yes and
literally having to breathe it into
someone else like it’s so material yes
he’s the material intermediary between
Spirit God and man yeah and yeah it just
makes it like tighter very tight but
then like but there’s always exceptions
yeah but then also
not what we’re doing now like I see what
you’re saying when it’s like
it should be so material right now
completely if it hasn’t been fulfilled
like this sort of wishy-washy it because
it was so tight okay like so one-to-one
yeah just wait as you continue you won’t
believe it yeah so I don’t know how we
get away with uh being half-assed about
it yeah so to me it’s either do it right
or see my way because the the way we do
it is it’s a joke yeah I see that a lot
um
okay so
um
sorry right after that he has this idea
about a good tree producing
good fruit bad tree producing Batman
fruit it’s fascinating
yeah
um this is another moment where I’m I
want to ask like is this principle
written elsewhere
because it feels like it’s to them right
there yeah well one they were very
agrarian Community they understood fruit
and trees okay he spoke to them in terms
of Shepherds and shepherding and all
that stuff
harvesting too it was to them and it’s
to tell them how you can tell the fruit
of the religious leaders around you you
know false prophets and liars and it’s a
fascinating concept when he says it
because I’ve never thought about a tree
can only give you good fruit or it can
give you bad fruit yeah me neither I
always thought of a tree giving you both
oh this is a bad apple I’ll go to this
limb but no apparently I mean maybe if
it was attacked by woodpeckers or
something but just from what the tree
brings it’s either good fruit or the
tree brings bad food yeah and like then
it’s mixed up with the other parable
about the wheat and the chaff being and
like don’t touch it let them be bad and
good in one and God will take care of it
when will he take care of it at the day
at the day at the Harvest and what will
happen then he will remove them and what
will happen to him they’ll be purged by
fire so we have all those pictures being
brought into his his his Parables look
at so he and this is from something
that’s interesting too he says to them
then
don’t someone comes to you and says hey
the the weight is growing beautifully
but somebody sewed weeds in there too
and should we remove them and he says
don’t you’ll pull up the good ones okay
but what do churches do if they find
somebody who’s weedy in there they could
come out they excommunicate them right
and they don’t even follow Jesus
teaching if we’re waiting for him to
come take his bride still we shouldn’t
be doing any weeding but they weed
everywhere
that is I think it’s the next chapter
actually but it’s so obvious that one
that’s such an obvious one yeah like he
literally describes okay this is what
the parable means
yeah and the angels will cast them and
yeah but good tree good fruit good tree
is to individuals yeah okay I just want
to finish this
I have one more question let me just go
over okay
um who is the queen of the South
what does that mean
do you know what I’m referring to yeah
what is that I don’t know it’s so weird
I I think I’ve taught on it and I think
there’s an answer that’s kind of tied to
some historical thing or their own uh
teachings and their own uh verbal ways
but I don’t remember what it was okay
yeah
yeah you won’t find that in John our
places because it’s not two Jews but
when he does that they’ll be like
you know
the South will Arise at the Judgment
yeah with this generation and condemn it
yeah with this generation
yeah
first you came from the ends of the
Earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon
yeah it sounds like it’s it’s pertaining
to the queen who helps Solomon put the
temple together if memory serves but I
it’s Jewish history okay put it as that
it’s probably spoken of in the Old
Testament yeah yeah okay okay I just
can’t remember who it was okay all right
Next Episode okay bye
