Jesus Christ – Part VII

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is heart of the Matter where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraney, your host.

Financial Support for Ministry Needs

Now, I want to say something and it is something I hate to say but have learned that letting people in on needs goes a long way in getting them met. We are not a wealthy ministry. I was at a hospital not long ago visiting a man and he offered me some cash. I refused it, but the individual pushed. I said, “I don’t want to take money for visiting you in the hospital and his reply was,”

“Well, you can do that because Derrick is a multi-millionaire.”

For those of you who know, Derrick and Denita are our partners in ministry and while they do so, so much – in addition to running the books and supporting us financially – but they are NOT like George Soros and they can ONLY do so much physically and financially – as they have a lot of obligations and interests outside of the ministry.

So where the Webster’s have greatly blessed the ministry they cannot bear the load – and we need others. (Gosh, rumors get so nasty in the hands of gossips)

Since we began ten years ago we’ve had to battle this overbearing myth that we are a wealthy ministry – through some means or another – “I am wealthy, Derrick is wealthy, we are on television and so we are just rich.”

We are rich – in the blessings of the Lord – and I openly admit that He has taken care of us, but don’t take this wrong, we struggle almost every single month to make ends meet and in the last two years we have LOST 50% of our support.

I bring this up here in connection to introducing to you our newest book. We write and print and distribute these books to all freely who cannot afford them. And we sell the rest at what we feel are reasonable prices. If you CAN afford this newest book we hope you will buy it – and not only help us make ends meet but to educate and enlighten yourselves. But if you can’t we will give it to you in His name and cause.

Understand also, we do not want financial support from the elderly, or those on limited fixed income, or people without jobs. We do not believe in tithes or mandatory giving. But we do appreciate and we do NEED financial support – from those who are lead and able to give it – end of story.

So there’s that.

Reflection from the Word

Got an email here . . . And with that, how about a moment from the Word.

In 1st Peter 2:17-24 the Apostle Peter writes:

17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Go back to verse 17 and let’s break these verses down.

17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

This is advice I have learned, through trial and error, to appreciate. Honor all men. Hand in hand with the idea that “it is the goodness of God that leads people to repentance,” if we have the attitude that we will honor or show respect to all men – the likelihood that they will glorify Christ in the future appears to be much greater.

When I was LDS I believed I…

The Christian Call to Honor and Submission

only needed to honor those who were either LDS (or had the potential to become LDS).

When I was an unthinking evangelical I sort of thought the same thing – except as it applied to people who called themselves Christians. Show me someone who didn’t agree with me and I wasn’t about to honor them. No way. They were going to hell. They were wrong! But Peter says “honor all men.” All. I’ve had to repent, and find myself free from the prison of thinking I had the license to treat some men differently than others.

Then He adds: “Love the brotherhood.” We know that our love is not limited to the brethren. Jesus clearly taught that we are to love neighbor as ourselves and when asked, “Who is my neighbor,” responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan. But Peter’s specific instructions here is to love unconditionally the brethren or band of brothers it says – with agapao love.

Reverence and Respect

Then he says: “Fear God,” and the word suggests revere and hold him in awe – have a holy veneration for Him, and he ends this passage with, “Honor the king.” More and more I find Christians who think they are exempt from this directive, and with insolence mock and deride those placed in authority over us. But not Peter. He says, “Honor the King. So there are the nuances of this passage.

But at verse 18 Peter addresses servants – and he says:

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. The word for servant here is oikatace and it refers to people who live in the homes of others as a servant of some sort – a cook, butler, maid, nanny – whatever the application. Scripture presents us with another type of slave however. Ephesians 6:5 says: “Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.” This word translated servant is doulos and this means a literal slave. So Peter in this context is referring to household help – whether hired or in bonds.

Submission to Authority

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” “Be subject – submit to your masters with all fear,” Peter says. The word here rendered masters here is despotace and means someone who is giving the orders – as simple as a householder or as complex as a series of corporate managers. “With all fear,” Peter says, again with the root word meaning with all proper reverence and respect.

Then Peter drops the other shoe, adding: “Not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.” The real deal of Christianity – doing good to those who do evil, turning the cheek to them who have struck the other side, forgiving those who do not deserve it, rendering good – always – to those who least deserve it. These response are at times taxing and difficult to bear. We are used and abused and believe we are justified in returning such treatment to those distributing it. But Peter says, “Not just to those over us who are pleasant but those who are (the King James says) forward. The Greek word is (skoli os) which means “bent,”

There are several English words we apply to skolios – crooked or bent (you know, like scoliosis), or wicked, and evil. So think of it this way: You are employed or a servant of a person that could be described as: “bent” “crooked,” “wicked” and even “evil.” Peter tells us to fear them (revere them) and submit to their crooked evil ways. This is utterly revolutionary. And it is advice that is far afield from anything the world suggests.

Peter then explains (verse 19 and 20) “For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.”

I gotta tell you these passages rocked my world when I first read them and they set me back on track of what I once understood but started to forget. Let me read them again – this time from another version – a literal translation – the MNT: It says: “For it is a graceful thing to God, if from a sense of duty to him,

Understanding Grace in Suffering

A man endures a wrong, even suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you are struck for a fault, you take it patiently? But if when you are doing well and suffer for it, you always take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.”

It’s interesting but the King James translates the line to “For this is thankworthy,” but the Greek word here is Charis which is best known to mean grace – favor. I love the literal translation. “If you are laboring under a despotace, and they are crooked, and you submit and revere them, this is grace.”

This is bestowing on others what has been bestowed upon us by God. The master of the house, crooked and bent, does NOT deserve our allegiance or support, but to give it, Peter says, “This is grace.” Have you ever desired to give grace without fail? I would think this is something Peter is speaking to. Like Jesus, who certainly taught truth and stood for the will of God but gave grace to all who least deserved it, namely, you and I.

This is grace, “if a man for conscience toward God, . . .” “If a person in his conscience toward God leads him in this.” That’s pretty subjective, isn’t it? Peter says it, not me! “This is favor (or grace) if a man regards himself as serving God, endures a wrong and suffers unjustly.”

The Foolishness of Bearing Correction Patiently

And then Peter adds (at verse 20), “For what credit is it if, when you are struck for a fault, you take it patiently?” In other words, when we have made an error and we are called out for it, where’s the reward for bearing the correction patiently? We made the mistake! We deserved the reprimand so of course we should bear it patiently. This insight, while right on the money, is sort of humorous because many people, when called out on their stuff do NOT bear it patiently but instead project all their stuff on someone else.

But the thinking is solid: “Where is the goodness in bearing a reproach for your error? There is none! It is what is due you. But then he adds: “But if when you are doing well and suffer for it, and you always take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.” So on the one hand he points out that as Christians there is no reward for patiently accepting correction or ill treatment for our faults.

The Example of Jesus

To understand the context and culture of the day we look to the Greek because the words Peter uses is: “Kolafidzo” – a word that the King James describes as “buffeted” and means to be hit in the face with a fist. In other words if you mess up and are punched in the face and you bear it patiently, where’s the reward? That’s a pretty cruel world they were living in, folks. We’ve gotten pretty darn soft in this day and age when we consider this passage.

However, Peter adds, if when we are doing well and suffer for it and accept the poor treatment patiently, this is acceptable with God. I have witnessed this in Mary, my wife. In the past, when we were younger, she was not good at taking hits when she was only trying to do good. But I’ve watched as she has grown in the Spirit and in her walk with the King, that today, when she is just trying to do good and is attacked for it through criticism, she bears it patiently. Amazingly, to tell you the truth. God does marvelous work in us if we allow Him through the Word and Spirit.

Peter continues and tosses up a most meaty, hard to hear for some, saying, in verses 21-23:

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.

I will cover these passages next week – they will rock your world. They did mine.

Okay, we have been talking about Jesus in the Christian sense and Jesus Christ in the LDS. It’s been an interesting study because I have learned so much that I didn’t realize before. What’s my hope in doing this? To help the LDS and Christians see where we have commonality and to illustrate the items that must

Understanding the Challenges of Addressing LDS Beliefs

When I say MUST, I mean things that are just way outside the pale of sound biblical exegesis, and when I say commonality, I am speaking of things that are not hills we ought to die upon. Last week, I had a pastor tell me that the call on my life is to address the LDS. I explained to him that I am – still am! But in the end, what he seemed to mean was, “I need to address the issues of Mormonism like I used to address them.” Translated? Don’t attack or speak of Christian things, ONLY go after the LDS issues. I really hope you can all see the problems with this approach. They are perfectly described by our Lord when He said in

Biblical Principles of Judgment and Comparison

Matthew 7:1-5: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, “Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye;” and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This example is to us in all matter, and not just in our respective lives. As a Christian, I refuse to cast stones at Mormonism when my own faith is encased in glass. So we are going to be as fair and as equitable through comparison as possible. So far we have talked about the way we describe or see God as NOT so far off from each other because the LDS see a father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit as do Christians. But we were able to say that something that MUST go from the LDS side is to say that God the Father is in a body of flesh and bones. This must is based on sound biblical presentations that clearly state God (the Father) is Spirit.

Understanding LDS and Christian Commonalities and Differences

In talking about Jesus, we have shown that there are a number of ways where the LDS doctrine agree with the Christian. But at the same time, we stated what cannot be embraced from the LDS side of things, with one being the idea that all human beings came from a pre-mortal existence like Jesus making Him our elder brother. Again, why MUST this go – because of what Jesus Himself said about His origins (relative to ours) and because in the end the teaching leads to a diminishing of the Lord in people rather than uplifting Him to the place He deserves. That being said, we have also discovered that the LDS are just fine in what they believe relative to certain things – like the way their scripture describes Jesus as the Only Begotten as it is in perfect harmony with the way the Bible describes it.

Examining Modern LDS Beliefs

I am beginning to see something firsthand which I never really took seriously before in my studies – much of Mormonism's troubles have come from what some of their modern prophets, seers, and revelators have said, with only a few things hearkening back to Smith. In other words, where Smith certainly introduced a number of far-out practices and doctrines, much of what he taught was within the realm of acceptability. But along comes men like McConkie and others, who demand certain views be embraced and the things where Smith was right get lost. Let me give you an example of this here tonight relative to our discussions on Jesus.

In modern Mormonism today, Jesus' pre-incarnate name – both in the heavens and then used in the Old Testament – is supposed to be Jehovah. In the LDS temple film, the pre-incarnate Jesus is called by God the Father (whose name is called Elohim) “Jehovah.” Like a Father on earth named William would tell his son Jerry to go and mow the law, Elohim in the LDS temple movie tells his Son Jehovah to go and do certain things on earth . . . and then to return and report. As a result of this, Mormons today believe that Jesus' pre-incarnate name is Jehovah.

Now, just to be clear, in the Old Testament, God is called by the name YHWH OR JHVH. Because the Jews had no vowels (and vowel marking was later employed to enhance understanding), the pronunciation and exact interpretation can differ, but the Old Testament always presents this as the name of God.

Understanding the Use of Jehovah in LDS Doctrine

We don’t know how God’s personal pronoun name is pronounced – so we say either Yahweh or Jehovah. What we do know is this name is applied to God alone. Now, in the KJV the letters JHVH (known as the Divine Tetragrammaton) are translated LORD (all upper case). So whenever we read (all uppercase) LORD in the Old Testament, we know we could replace it with Jehovah – AGAIN, which is the personal pronoun name of God himself.

The Great Jewish Shema

The Great Jewish Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 says:

“Hear, O Israel, the LORD (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Jehovah).”

Now, to Trinitarians, and frankly to those of us who are considered Oneness or even modalist, when the Spirit of God acts, or the Word of God acts, or the Father acts, they are all one God, so therefore they can all be known, called or referred to as JEHOVAH or YAHWEH.

But to the LDS TODAY Jehovah or Yahweh ONLY and exclusively refers to Jesus – especially in His pre-incarnate state. Therefore, the LDS will say things like: “Jesus is the God of the Old Testament” because the name is used for God in the Old Testament they believe it was pre-incarnate Jesus that engaged with the Nation of Israel throughout the Old Testament.

When was this idea REALLY pushed and made popular? It seems like Old McConkie had a lot to do with it. Let me explain why. In his epic fail of a book, Mormon Doctrine, (a book the LDS today discount) LDS apostle McConkie wrote on page 392: “Christ is Jehovah. They are one and the same person.” Because of the LDS teaching that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead, there is no mistaking that Jesus' personal name, according to McConkie, is Jehovah. Add in the LDS temple ceremony which makes it clear that God the Father’s personal name is Elohim and we’ve got the modern LDS understanding of the names of two of the Godhead (in some circles of Mormonism the Holy Ghost is believed to have the first name of Fred.) Kidding.

Issues with the LDS Stance on Jehovah

The TROUBLE with this stance within Modern Mormonism on Jesus having the name Jehovah is:

• It is NOT supported by the Bible.
• In early LDS doctrine, Jehovah was used as a generic for God.
• In the LDS BOM the term Jehovah is only found twice and in both cases refer to God and not Christ.
• In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, Jehovah once again seems to be applied to the Father and not Jesus.
• Even LDS scholars do not agree with McConkie's stance.

Interestingly enough, the first recorded instance of Jehovah being uniquely assigned to Jesus doesn’t appear until 1885. So, who’s right? McConkie, in his disputed book Mormon Doctrine or these five factors? Before we open the phones, let me quickly take them one by one and show how they prove McConkie (and therefore the modern idea of Jesus name being Jehovah) wrong.

• It is NOT supported by the Bible.

Psalm 2:7 says, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” Lord there is Jehovah. Did Jehovah begat Jehovah? Isaiah 53:10 says: “Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.” Deuteronomy 4:35 says “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD (Jehovah) he is God; there is none else beside him.”

• In early LDS doctrine Jehovah was used as a generic for God.

LDS scholar Boyd Kirkland says: “With the interchangeability of the roles of the Father and the Son in earliest Mormon theology, it is impossible to identify specifically Joseph’s first few Jehovah references as either the Father or the Son. However, after the identities of the Father and the Son were more carefully differentiated in Mormon theology around 1835, Joseph clearly began to use the divine name Jehovah to refer to the Father. Significantly, he never specifically identified Jehovah as Jesus, nor Jehovah as the Son of Elohim.” (The Development of the Mormon Doctrine of God, page 37)

• In the LDS BOM the term Jehovah is only found twice and in both cases refer to God and not Christ.

2nd Nephi 2:22 says: “God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid; for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also has become my salvation.” The second time the BOM mentions Jehovah is in Moroni 10:34.

Exploring LDS Perspectives on Jehovah

The very last verse in the book is at best vague on whether it speaks of God or the Son.

In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, Jehovah once again seems to be applied to the Father and not Jesus.

In a prayer given by Joseph Smith and recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 109:34, 42, 56, and 68, he says:
“O Jehovah, have mercy on these people . . .”
And then
“Deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee.”

The LDS are emphatic (again, in some part due to McConkie's influence) that we pray to the Father through the Son and NOT to the Son himself, but it appears the founder was not aware of this rule. Or the founder believed that Jehovah was God and Not Jesus – but we can’t have both.

In the History of the Church, volume 5:127, we read Joseph Smith pray there and say:
“O thou . . . eternal, omnipotent, and omnipresent Jehovah – God – Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, enthroned in heaven, look down upon thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ . . . . be conferred upon him.”

Perspectives from LDS Scholars

Even LDS scholars do not agree with McConkie's stance. Lowell Bennion was one. Old Testament professor Keith Meservy was another who, in an article in the June 2002 Ensign, admits that “there are at least three places in the Old Testament where Jehovah is not speaking of Jesus but of the Father.” And Boyd Kirkland is another.

It seems to me that there is some wiggle room on this topic – room where Latter-day Saints can edit McConkie and other latter revelations on matters out of their current understanding of Christ. Author and BYU professor Charles Harrell puts it this way:
“The modern use of “Jehovah” as an exclusive designation for the premortal Christ is a convention made official through a doctrinal exposition titled, “Christ as the Father and the Son”, published by the LDS First Presidency in 1916.”

Harrell adds:
“This use, however, is a twentieth-century development that did not exist in early Mormonism, neither is it evident in LDS scripture.”

Reflections on Doctrinal Change

In the face of all of this, we have to be fair. Mormonism is not the only religious movement that has morphed and changed in the face of zealous men, ideology, and culture. When we allow ourselves to throw stones at them for these inconsistencies, we are ignoring the thin glass houses in which we reside by faith. I have seen our guilt, as a body of believers, firsthand in similar areas. Don’t kid yourselves, ardent Christians, the faith we uphold today has also experienced a multitude of doctrinal and practical changes.

So, where we ought to continue to use the Bible as our means to define "acceptable and rejectable boundaries to the faith," let’s begin with commonalities and be slow to cast the first stone at the differences. We may not be as far apart as we’d like to believe.

And with that let’s open up the phone lines – (801)

And while the ops take a minute clearing your calls, let’s take a look at this clarifying video about CAMPUS.

From: K
Subject: Ex-Mormon 12 years & Seeking
Message Body:
Hello Mr. McCraney, I am writing this because I have been "inactive" for 12 years and I am looking for someone to understand what I have been going through. I have been watching your YouTube videos and have felt vindicated through how you have responded and have been brave enough verbalize yourself as I have not been.

Briefly, my history: I grew up in "the church" and until I was 28 yrs. old and started to think for myself. My whole family was (and is currently) in the religion and I have four brothers who all served missions. I met a man (at 19) & introduced him to missionaries who baptized him & we lived the complete Mormon life, meaning that we married in the temple and then we had four children in six years. I served in the Relief Society Presidency and he was in Elders Quorum Presidency. At 28 years old, I began to read (from the local library) literature that was not church-approved. After we got the inkling that we had been duped, we quit going to church and we realized that we had only married because we felt obligated to, and placed our faith in "the church" to help our relationship. We divorced and still co-parent our children somewhat successfully (I say "somewhat" because…)

Rediscovering Faith and Seeking Truth

they are teenagers now and just downright difficult). I am now writing to you because I have lost my dad and my little brother (to suicide) in the last few months and I feel a need to reconnect to a sense of spirit, afterlife, salvation, understanding, forgiveness, etc. I am DRIVEN to this in places of my soul that I have not felt before. Hoping you can relate…there are trust issues I have with any organized religion & I am reaching out for a reference. Boise/Meridian area good Christian, and I mean CHRISTIAN group that you would recommend. Please respond when you have time. Thank you for your work and know that I have felt a sense of healing when listening to how you have responded to the questions that I have had for a long time. Thank you in honesty, Kamian Stevens P.S…I am trusting in you when I ask that you please not use this correspondence in any way publically…it would really hurt my family and the relationships that I strive to keep with them. Thank you!

Struggling with Organized Religion

FROM ADAM – I have a lot to say but I will make this introductory email brief. I need help getting my name and the names of my boys stricken from the church records. My bishop has proven to be less than polite or helpful with me in this matter and I just do not know what to do. I have had several experiences in the church that have brought me the point of wanting to be completely white washed from the records. I did not come to this decision lightly. Needless to say the LDS church devastated my life in many ways and I need to be completely rid of it in order to move on with my life and that of my family, please if you can guide me through this difficult time I would forever be indebted to you. You have my email please anytime you have a moment I would greatly appreciate hearing from you. I love your channel it provided the icing on the cake I needed in order to move on.

Shawn, Praise God. I am reading the New Testament and feeling the promise. I am understanding Gracie a little better. I am enjoying your workbook The End of Material Religion. [Looks like a dissertation to me!] Trouble is I search your references so it's slow. Aaron has read most of what you have us and has watched your online presentations on CAMPUS. He is coming back to Christ. See you Sunday, Sincere thanks, Sue

Hello, my names yvonne and I just wanted to say I love your show Heart of the matter, I left the church after I realised it's teaching me false doctrine, I was brought up a Christian, my father was a sunday school teacher and I went to Sunday school regularly. As a grown up I wanted to understand my faith more so started to look at different churches, I was led to believe that the mormon church was true even though I never had an answer to my prayer. I was told to doubt my doubts before my faith. I fell for the package hook line and sinker, I never stopped reading my bible even though I was told only to read the book of mormon, I questioned everything because after being baptised it all started to fall apart, I'm out of it now, so is my fiancé and my daughter, I pray every day that jesus will forgive me for listening and to false doctrine, It makes me very happy to watch your show, I knew my feelings were right, and I'm so very happy I left the brainwashing behind, Kind regards yvonne williams.

Exploring John 14-17

From: Patricia Benavente Alcaide

Subject: John 14-17

Message Body:

Dear Shawn,

I just wanted to ask you if you can study chapters 14-17 in John. That's what came to mind when I heard you say that there are not three persons but that God has three manifestations. Those chapters came to mind because they amazingly describe the distinct interaction between the three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thank you for being a painstaking and serious person, looking for truth and integrity.

Thank you!

COMMENT ON CHAPTERS

From: Cheo Lugo

Subject:

God is from above and man is from below. My question: where is satan from?

From: Chris Herrin

Subject: I'm having the exact problem you've said we all would have

Message Body:

Hello,

I am not a mormon, Thank God. Nor was I ever one, Thank God. But, I have been burdened with learning

Engaging with Mormon Beliefs

about Mormonism by God to help minister to them and hopefully bring them into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. For this reason about a year ago I found your show on Youtube and have been watching often. I live in Houston, TX and am currently attending Houston Baptist University about to finish up my MA in Philosophy and Christian Apologetics. My thesis is going to be on Mormonism; specifically: "The Ontological Inadequacies of the Mormon Doctrine of God."

I am writing to you because I have been having trouble finding LDS sources that definitively declare WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Yesterday, I reached out to the FairMormon website and asked a simple question as to what the official LDS given doctrine of God is, and the response I got was nothing short of an interrogation into my personal life, religious commitments, schooling, and my warrant for my question.

The volunteer who responded to my question was Louis Midgley, apparently a Professor Emeritus from BYU in the Political Science department. Shawn, it was exactly like what happens on your show when you get an LDS member call in and ask why you left the church, what happened to you, how are your finances, "tell me your sins", and all the other dodging maneuvers that they can implore so as to NOT answer the question.

Now, I know my question is sophisticated and philosophical challenging, but being a PhD carrying, Professor Emeritus from BYU, one would think he would be jumping for joy to have someone interested in the deep inner "truths" of who the person they call "God" is.

Encountering Resistance

I just wanted to share my story and encourage you to keep on with the ministry. I would love to send you the correspondence that I've had with him if you want. Also, since I am not able to watch your show live, I wouldn't be able to hear/see your response to this if you choose to do so over-the-air. I'd love to get an email back and discuss some other ways as to how one can find these tenants of faith that the LDS people seem to not want to disclose to the investigating public.

Thanks,

Chris Herrin

Personal Testimony

From: Duane Dahl
Subject: my born again experience.
Message Body:
I was born into the LDS Church, but was a luke warm member for years. but the funny thing is, is that i have NEVER felt abandoned by the Lord, and in two particular instances ive had first hand experiences with almost unbelievable and somewhat biblical encounters with the spirit. I will share one today. In my sophomore year in high school, i went to lunch with a friend, while sitting at a stop light some female class mates pulled up next to us on our right, me in the passenger seat (with no seat belt on) engines started revving,…a race would soon ensue, but as clear as bell, and out of no where a stern male voice said to me over my right should, Duane, put on your seat belt, as i looked to my right, all i saw was a car full of girls. without any hesitation i strapped in, within seconds of this, the Ford Thunderbird i was riding in was doing over 70 mph down 21st south in sugarhouse…moments after this we collided with another vehicle and made a mess of things on 11th east. as fate would have it, i walked away from this incident without a scratch. you can plainly see that my brush with certain death or at the least, critical injury diffidently proved to me that someone greater that i was watching out for me. i moved to socal in 1999, the church found me fast, and soon after my children and i were attending services. within a few weeks i was being pressured into ward callings that i really didnt want to do, so after a time i backed off and became inactive for a while, then i moved into a new place and the guy i was renting from had family in the same ward, and soon after i moved in, the missionaries started coming around, and once again i was attending services at the local ward. but once again with a short time i was getting called up for positions that i did not feel inspired to take, and the ONLY way they would leave me be was to LEAVE. this kinda sucked because i loved gospel doctrine class. at this point i was a bit distraught, but as i said early, i never felt abandoned by the Lord. i had many questions that i could get no answers for, and i was too lazy to read the word. my parents were constantly trying to get me back to church, but i just could not get myself

A Journey of Faith and Revelation

To go back full well knowing how things were going to go, and now that my children were over the age of 8 the pressure was on from all sides for Baptism. In 2010 I discovered something, something that started my journey to where I am now…believe it or not, I thought my whole life of 45 years that the LDS general authorities did their job without compensation! When I found out that was totally not true, I was set on a journey to find out what else was not the way I thought it was. To make matters worse I worked with a guy whose father was a Minister and when I told him I was a Mormon he went all sorts of colors in the face…awe you're in a cult bro…no way I said. Funny thing is, it's hard to prove your point when you use scriptures that no one else uses….so I'm like ok, I'll just use the bible to prove my point…well that just doesn't work, so now you understand my dilemma.

Encountering New Insights

At this point I was totally beside myself with an empty feeling of hopelessness! I know God is with me, but I still feel I'm holding an empty bag of hot air. I mean I know there had to be "some" truth with Mormon scriptures right? I mean if Joseph Smith was making it up, he would have to have a real knack for BS right??? As it turns out, YEAH, he did. I can't remember the exact time or date that I found Heart of the Matter on YouTube, but not a day goes by that I don't thank the Lord for having me stumble upon you, Shawn! For many weeks I kept watching a snippet here and a snippet there… and then I started asking myself: what is this born-again experience, and what, if anything am I missing here????

For my 46th birthday last Friday the 11th, I received a pair of wireless headphones. I'm like cool, I can walk around my work station without having a cord hanging from my neck, and I could listen to whatever I wanted untethered! I started Monday listening to full episodes of HOTM and I was on a binge. I sucked up so much info I thought my head would explode!

A Miraculous Transformation

Then on the evening of March 15, something miraculous happened. As I knelt in prayer I took a moment to reflect on some of the things I'd heard on Heart of the Matter over the last couple of days, suddenly a peace came over me like nothing I've felt before, then I started to giggle like a little child, seconds after that I started to weep uncontrollably, then more giggles, then more tears…after a minute of this, I heard that voice again!, yes that same male voice I'd heard years ago in high school that warned me about the impending incident….that voice said 4 words: Now you understand me"…holy wow!!!…among other expletives! Talk about prayers answered!

I waited many days to write this because I wanted to see if the feelings remained, and if my attitude and my actions have TRULY changed. I would have to say YES, I feel confident in saying I'M BORN AGAIN!!

Ever since I moved to California, I have always prayed to have the Lord steer me towards good people that would help me and edify me and He has done it once again. I am so grateful for your, dare I say, ministry Shawn; it is definitely the best thing to happen to me in a very long time! I wanted to visit your CAMPUS last summer, but my schedule was not cooperating. But it's definitely on my to-do list this summer! Keep the faith my brother! Thanks again, warm regards, Duane.