Heart of the Matter Show

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the Matter where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraney, your host.

For God So Loved the World – Atonement

Show 39 516
September 20th 2016

Listen, we are opening the doors wide in hopes of getting 50 guests for 2017 to be interviewed here on HOTM. We want people who claim a relationship with Jesus, who say that they are Christian, but who may or may not adhere to what we call Christian orthodoxy today. This is really important to what we do here on HOTM and it is also quite difficult. See, people all believe that the position that they maintain is the correct position (that’s why we all believe what we believe, right?) And so when we get people on the show promoting their specific view those who endorse their views hear what they want to hear and clap when they want to clap and give thumbs up to what they believe and thumbs down to what they don’t.

Often people who are best equipped for argument and boldness are deemed to have superior ideas but in reality all they have is an ability to debate. All of these factors (plus more) often make having opinionated guests on a program a fruitless experience. Which is why doing it right can be so difficult. However, this is why we are trying to make it happen – Seekers of Truth will glean what is profitable from such conversations and will discard the superfluous – if not immediately, then over time. So please help us and send us the names of individuals who you think will bring good content to the table. Some of you have already provided us with names – which we will follow up on. But fifty shows is a lot. Help us out if you are so lead.

And with that, how about a moment from the Word.

(RUN FROM THE WORD HERE PLEASE)

New Testament Teachings on the Word

Last week we had a caller asked about the meaning and purpose of the Word in the lives of believers and the Church and who gets to decide what applies and what doesn’t – and why?

I explained that within the New Testament there are passages that describe for us what believers and the Body would look like after the end of the Jewish age. Remember, I strongly suggest that that end occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem initiated by the return of Jesus Christ. What passages speak to what being a Christian will look like after then end of that age and their relationship to material things. We’ll let me provide a few.

In Jeremiah we are told how God would relate to us “after those days” as the prophet wrote:

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul wrote in 2nd Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The writer of Hebrews said this, echoing the sentiments of Jeremiah:

8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember.

The Shift to the New Covenant

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old then was ready to vanish away while the New – which is defined by scripture as being written on our hearts and minds – was slowly stepping in to take over. Not written in a book – written in our hearts and minds. So much so that God says in this new covenant, “they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me . . .”

The New Testament epistles are blessing to us to read individually and study collectively but it is no more supposed to be a manual for how all things are to be done than the Old. Those “writings” are written on a place that is NOT the human heart – they therefore cannot serve as written demands in “the fullness of the New Covenant.” When I say the “fullness of the New Covenant,” what am I talking about. I’m talking about the day and age when everything that could be shaken (and destroyed) was taken and destroyed – leaving ONLY that which could not be shaken – and which therefore could never be destroyed.

The Destruction of the Old Order

When was this? When one last time God shook both heavens and earth, and sent EVERYTHING that was materially based about religion crumbling to the ground. That was in 70AD.

• A million plus Jews wiped out.
• Carnage unlike any ever seen or any that would ever been seen (yes, worse than Vietnam, WWII or I or any other carnage).
• The magnificent temple leveled.
• All the genealogies – burned.
• Therefore the priesthood abolished.

All that was wiped out is over – very symbolic – very over. What else was abolished and over? Anything that could be shaken was abolished at the end of that age and anything that remained (in the Household of God) would not (could NOT) be shaken.

Understanding Hebrews' Interpretation

Now, where do I get all of this? From a description the writer of Hebrews gives to people in his day about what this end would consist. Speaking of the power of the voice of God the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 12:26:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised (meaning NOW, in this day and this age this same God has promised us), saying, “Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.”

(Now this is Hebraic language. What would be shaken would be anything on earth that could shake (and fall) and all the principles and ways of heaven too). The writer goes on and says:

27 And his statement, “Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Now, I ask you, what could the writer mean when he says that when God says one more time it signifies . . . “THE REMOVING of those THINGS that ARE SHAKEN, AS OF THINGS THAT ARE MADE . . .” What does that say or mean to you? I think it is saying that in the New Covenant where God will write His laws upon our hearts and minds that nothing that can be shaken, upset, broken, twisted, nothing that can or will fail, be moved, will remain.

Now, I’ve got a question for you? Can a brick and mortar institution be shaken as defined here? You bet yer little white teeth. Can a man or men or boards of men? Yep. Can a denomination? A church? A system of religion? Yes yes and yes. All shakable. All unreliable. All capable of falling. That’s why in the fulfilled New Covenant we do NOT look to men for discipline, governance, or any of this stuff created for the Old Testament ways to converge with the needs of the Primitive Church – its all shaken to the ground.

The Unshakeable Kingdom

Listen to the way the writer of Hebrews wraps this up. He has said:

27 And his statement, “Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.” Now listen to this – it could NOT be MORE clear . . .

28 Wherefore . . . we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved . . . let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and

Understanding the Unshakeable Kingdom

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I wanna know, are you part of a kingdom that can be moved? I’m not. The Pope can turn from God, the LDS prophet can put on a dress, the Baptists can start killing gays, and the building we meet in here at CAMPUS can fall to the ground. Who gives a rats rear-end. That is all shakable stuff. The kingdom I belong too doesn’t have frail men in shiny shoes meting out discipline – the Holy Spirit is in charge.

The Kingdom I belong to doesn’t need your tithes and offerings to do the Lord’s work – it operates off faith and love and trusts that God will make a way – not shakable mandates from Man! If you are being told by a shakable man who you are before God, if you have relinquished your freedom and direct access to Him to a church, or a way, or a human being, you have embraced a shakable entity for membership in something that cannot EVER be moved – His Kingdom.

Reflecting on the Afterlife

And with that how about a moment at the Board of Direction?

We’ve openly wondered about the afterlife and what it will look like for people – all people – believers, non, and everyone in between (meaning believers who are really devout and believers who are really indifferent.) I recently have been wondering a lot about resurrection and have taught on it in a few CAMPUS gatherings. Most of you know that I believe that God will reconcile all of His creations to Himself. That every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

I also believe that when Paul said in Galatians 6:7-8:

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

I have always been troubled by a line from Jesus in terms of what it actually means. The line?

John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

How is our knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ who the Only True God has sent life eternal?

Concept of Eternal Life

Taking all of this – the promised resurrection to all people, the fact that we will reap what we sow, that if we sow to our flesh we will reap to our flesh but if we sow to our spirit we will reap to our spirit and that to know the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom He send and I wonder . . . just wonder . . . if God (with Jesus in the Bosom of the Father) is the epitome of life eternal. There is no greater definition of life eternal to be found anywhere.

ON BOARD

(Begin with a circle with Jesus in the heart of it).

And then I wonder if those who are joint heirs with Christ will abide right there in God with Him and the reason is that they have known Him and His Son so perfectly that they actually reflect them in their lives.

(ADD A CIRCLE)

Then I wonder if there are those who are close in their knowledge but not joint heirs.

• Then others, who know God and His Son,
• Then those who believe on them.
• Then those who were pure religionists who did a lot in their cause.
• Then those who were really off on “knowing them” but still tried to follow something about them.
• Then those who sort of apathetically believed on them.
• And then let’s say that there are those who were almost forced to bend the knee and confess them.

And all of these are given resurrected spiritual bodies that can only abide in so much of the light of God – maybe only in as much light as they were willing to receive or live in when alive. But here’s the catch – maybe all of these relate to God and Jesus at a level that they believe is the ultimate level – because that is where they are, and that is where God meets them – but the only real life eternal – is right there smack dab in the middle, a place accessed by those who really came to know God and Christ?

Just a thought.

We left off talking about the Creation and the Fall a few weeks ago as

Atonement in Mormonism and Christianity

Tonight, let’s talk about the next logical topic following our discussion of the Fall – atonement. This is a big topic and an important one at that. Between the Mormon and the Christians, there is a divide not so much on atonement – both agree in it in principle – but the disagreement comes in what we might call the full definition of the term. We’ll get to that next week.

Now if you have ever had a conversation of any length with a Latter-day Saint, especially the true believing LDS, it does not take long before you will hear them use the word “atonement.” In their testimony meetings, it usually comes out like this: “I want to bear my testimony. I know this church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet and that we are guided by a living prophet today. I am grateful for the atonement which makes it possible for me to live with my heavenly Father again.”

The Origins and Use of Atonement

The atonement. What is it? What does it mean? Where did it come from? Why is it here? Where is it going? In Mormonism, the first use of the word atonement can be found in the Book of Mormon which says:

2 Nephi 9:26. For the atonement satisfies the demands of his justice . . . upon all those who…[and it goes on to detail some doctrine].

The interesting thing about its presence in the BOM is that it was a word made up by Man to describe its Hebrew equivalent. In the sixteenth century, Bible scholar and translator William Tyndale recognized that there was not a direct English translation of the Biblical Hebraic concept for “deific satisfaction.” So he took two words “at” and “one,” put them together, added a ment as a means to reflect the dual aspect of Christ’s sacrifice: which includes 1, the remission of sin and 2, the reconciliation of man to God. Tyndale’s concept overcomes the limitations of the word “reconciliation” while incorporating aspects of propitiation and forgiveness.

The LDS mock Christians for using the word Trinity but believe a sixteenth-century man-made term was somehow able to be translated onto the ancient golden plates of their Book of Mormon. The word atonement is only found once in the King James version of the New Testament.

This point is very important. So again, the term atonement is only found once in the King James version of the New Testament – and it’s in Romans 5:11. It was changed to “reconciliation” in later translations. But as I said, the word is frequently used in the Old Testament and was used to refer to when something “made satisfaction” for sin. In Exodus 32:30 Moses said,

“You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

Atonement and Christian Theology

Thus, when atonement was done in the Old Testament, an act was done which would bring temporary satisfaction for sin that would reconcile the sinful individual (or nation) to God. It was only by the shed blood of Jesus that permanent satisfaction can be had. For the children of Israel, under the Law, the shed blood of animals made this temporary “propitiation,” and the people’s righteous living by faith, ordinances, and works were requisite to show their love for God and man.

By the phrase the “atonement of Christ” Christians generally mean all the work He did which expiates sin (pays for, wipes them out of existence) once and forever. When speaking of Christ’s saving work, the word satisfaction, which is a word theologians of the Reformation used (and in my opinion is preferable to the word atonement because Christ satisfied all demands of God – ALL – on behalf of sinners. This means the demands not only to propitiate sin but also the demands for holiness, righteous living, and acting out of a pure heart in love.

Vicarious Nature of Christ's Work

To Christians, Christ’s work consisted of suffering and (listen closely) “and” . . . obedience! Because this work was vicarious (meaning it was not merely for our benefit but was in our very stead) He was our full and total substitute in every way – something the singular term atonement fails to convey. Because our sin and guilt was fully expiated (or covered) by the suffering our Savior and King bore on our behalf, God is rendered “propitious,” which simply means God’s unconditional love and mercy is now made consistent with the eternal.

The Nature of Reconciliation

By virtue of Christ’s works – obedience, righteousness, suffering, and death – our alienation from God as unrighteous ceases and reconciliation is brought about for good by virtue of sanctification. This reconciliation is mutual, meaning it is not only that of sinners toward God but it is also and pre-eminently that of God toward sinners! It must also be constantly kept in mind that the atonement or reconciliation or satisfaction is not the cause of God’s love toward guilty men and women but it is the consequence of His love toward us. Again, the satisfaction of Christ’s blood and love is NOT the cause of God’s love for us, IT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF GODS LOVE FOR US.

The Message of John 3:16

Remember,
John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Christians know from the Bible that because Jesus came, lived perfectly and lovingly, obediently fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, and then suffered and died, that full and complete forgiveness for all sin past, present, and future is had through grace by faith … and faith alone.

Justification and Reconciliation

We joyfully read: Romans 5:1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. John 3:15 reminds us that “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” Additionally, the Bible is clear that we are not only cleared and cleaned of all sin by our faith, we are also made righteous through His eternal reconciliation. Listen carefully to what Romans 5 lays out for us, starting with verse six:
Romans 5:6. For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We learn here that God demonstrated His love for us by having His Son die for us WHILE we were sinners. Listen – the blood was not shed because we were righteous or would repent, but while we were sinful Christ died for us. That’s you and me. The blood was graciously given and shed because God so loved the world NOT because anyone in the world deserved the blood to be shed. Got that?

Romans 5:9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son … [Meaning, if we when we were enemies against God we were reconciled to God through the death of Jesus – meaning we are cleaned from sin by His death …] … much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. The meaning of this is clear – we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son AND AND AND, having been reconciled WE SHALL ALSO BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE (Meaning, we are imputed with the righteousness He earned by living the perfect life on our behalf) – and not our own.

This is very, very, very important, my friends in the LDS / Christian dialogue about atonement. Why? Because the LDS take Jesus’ life, suffering, and death and give it only partial significance and import – the rest is up to the individual. And this not only amounts to another gospel, it amounts to a burden and a lack of peace for all who could have peace in and through Him and Him alone. Let’s open up the phone lines – 801 590-8413

Please first time callers or haven’t heard from you in a good while callers only. The reason we do that is to keep the show fresh and to keep the lines open for those who have never called before. Please don’t be offended.

EMAILS I was sent this email from someone who received it from a ministry that goes out in the streets and confronts the LDS at their events like General Conference and Temple Dedications. Having been LDS I have never believed that this approach is effective and believe people who attempt to reach the LDS this way may have let zeal override their wisdom. More and more I think Christians writ large are beginning to agree. This is what the

Disagreement Over Methods at LDS Temple Opening

The Afton, WY LDS temple opening begins soon: September 23rd – October 8th. Afton is in the middle of nowhere, about 3 and ½ hours away from where we live, and it looks like I’ll have to drive about an hour each day to stay at a hotel.

(In other words, we need money)

I’ve talked on the phone to a few local pastors about simply having some place to stay and possibly speaking at their church, but all seem dead set against me coming. They think, along with Mormons, that what I do is disrespectful, and it will only cause LDS to be further repelled from their local Christian churches. Here’s an email I got back from one pastor:

Hi Jim,

I have reviewed part of the material to which you referred and have prayerfully considered your requests. (Remember this – the pastor has prayerfully considered the request this ministry is making – this is what he says before continuing and says) While I agree with your convictions and admire your passion, I do not agree with your methods. As I mentioned when you called, evangelical leaders and churches in Star Valley have worked hard the last several years to build loving, respect-based relationships with our LDS friends and neighbors, and we are beginning to see some fruit born of that. While we don't agree with them theologically, we honor their right to worship and believe as they see fit, and we support their celebration of an event that is huge to them. Your confrontational methods would undo lots of that work and potentially create an adversarial relationship that puts them on the defensive and destroys the trust we are trying to build.

I can’t help but applaud this Pastor and his approach. He continues:

I ask that you not come for this particular temple opening. Allow the churches that God has established and is growing here the chance to continue loving the LDS as we have been, and trust that God is working through local churches. I am denying your request to speak in our church, and we will not house you. I wish you well in the ministry that God has called you to, respecting your right as well to discern before God where and how He has called you to minister. But I do not believe it is appropriate in Star Valley at this time.

Alternative Approaches to Ministry

The ministry leader then writes in response to the recipients of this email:

Do you agree with this pastor or do you think the Body of Christ should utilize all of its parts? Do you think respect should fit this pastor’s definitions or should respect uphold God’s standards and look more like what was going on in the book of Acts? The local Christian churches will have zero outreach during this time. LDS expect around 70 thousand in just over 2 weeks, so it seems like a great opportunity to get the word out to a lot of LDS in a particular area! I have talked with my board, as well as other people involved in outreach to the LDS (he drops names here) and we all think that it is important for me to be out there during this time.

You may not be able to preach to thousands across the country, but you can certainly partner with me for this end.

“Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth” (3 John 8).

This video explains what I am doing when I am at these temple openings and why they are important. I also just posted a tract on “Questions to Ask at LDS Temple Openings.”

Financial Support Request

Then the bomb:

Will you invest in this upcoming mission trip? Please don't delay! I need to make arrangements soon! Please make a check out to (blah, blah, blah) and mail it today to the address below, or you can securely give online at (the website).

He then gives an “Estimate of the Financial Needs” and adds:

Please pray for this whole situation!

Perspectives on Political Figures

From: David
Subject: political question
Message Body:
Since Hillary Clinton is running for President, I have heard a lot of people mention she is a Jezebel, and speak about the Jezebel spirit being narcissistic, vindictive, power hungry, and downright evil. I have also heard people mention the feminist movement is of the Jezebel spirit. What do you think about this?

Religious Journey Reflections

From: Vincent Sletvold
Subject: Message for Shawn
Message Body:
Message for Shawn
Greetings,

I have been watching your show for a few years now on Youtube. It is educational, keep it up. I grown up Catholic. Then I studied with Mormon missionaries, non denominational Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses. I am now looking at the Hebrew Roots movement.

I have heard

Guest Suggestions for a Multiply Faith Show

You might do a multiply faith show. I have a few ideas for your guests. Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Zachary Bauer of New to Torah, or Paul Nison of Torah Life Ministries and Thomas Smith, former Mormon turned Catholic. Even if these are just video chats or a statement from them it would be interesting to hear you report on them.

A Blessing from Ephesians

Ephesians 6:23 May you have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sign-Off

Shalom (Peace)

Courageous Christians United
September 17th, 2016

Afton, WY LDS Temple Opening

Wendy,

The Afton, WY LDS temple opening begins soon: September 23rd – October 8th. Afton is in the middle of nowhere, about 3 and ½ hours away from where we live, and it looks like I’ll have to drive about an hour each day to stay at a hotel. I’ve talked on the phone to a few local pastors about simply having some place to stay and possibly speaking at their church, but all seem dead set against me coming. They think, along with Mormons, that what I do is disrespectful, and it will only cause LDS to be further repelled from their local Christian churches.

Here’s an email I got back from one pastor:

Hi Rob,

I have reviewed part of the material to which you referred and have prayerfully considered your requests. While I agree with your convictions and admire your passion, I do not agree with your methods. As I mentioned when you called, evangelical leaders and churches in Star Valley have worked hard the last several years to build loving, respect-based relationships with our LDS friends and neighbors, and we are beginning to see some fruit born of that. While we don't agree with them theologically, we honor their right to worship and believe as they see fit, and we support their celebration of an event that is huge to them. Your confrontational methods would undo lots of that work and potentially create an adversarial relationship that puts them on the defensive and destroys the trust we are trying to build.

I ask that you not come for this particular temple opening. Allow the churches that God has established and is growing here the chance to continue loving the LDS as we have been, and trust that God is working through local churches. I am denying your request to speak in our church, and we will not house you. I wish you well in the ministry that God has called you to, respecting your right as well to discern before God where and how He has called you to minister. But I do not believe it is appropriate in Star Valley at this time.

Perspectives on Respect

Do you agree with this pastor or do you think the Body of Christ should utilize all of its parts? Do you think respect should fit this pastor’s definitions or should respect uphold God’s standards and look more like what was going on in the book of Acts? The local Christian churches will have zero outreach during this time. LDS expect around 70,000 in just over 2 weeks, so it seems like a great opportunity to get the word out to a lot of LDS in a particular area! I have talked with my board, as well as Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson of Mormonism Research Ministry, and we all think that it is important for me to be out there during this time.

You may not be able to preach to thousands across the country, but you can certainly partner with me for this end.

“Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth” (3 John 8).

This video explains what I am doing when I am at these temple openings and why they are important. I also just posted a tract on “Questions to Ask at LDS Temple Openings.”

Will you invest in this upcoming mission trip? Please don't delay! I need to make arrangements soon! Please make a check out to Courageous Christians United (or "CCU") and mail it today to the address below, or you can securely give online at http://www.mormoninfo.org/invest-24. All gifts to CCU are tax deductible as CCU is a 501c3 non-profit organization.

Financial Needs

Estimate of the Financial Needs:

Gas: $75
Lodging: $350
Food: $100

Total: $525

Please pray for this whole situation!

We also received this email from Carlos:

Ya saw the episodes concerning the caller James. He is the mainstream Christian Church. I don't think you will find any room to sway someone like that because I'm assuming he was not a preterist. If someone doesn't believe Christ came back yet then it seems the New Testament was indirectly written to us as well. As far as people picking on the sin of homosexuality, I just don't get it. I kind of think of sin as a pool we are wading through with the water being our sin. The outward sins you can see on the top of water seem ugly because they are visible but they are part of one body of water. None are without sin and James says if you commit one you are guilty of all. The only part that still confuses me in this is

Exploring Hebrews 10:26 and Personal Beliefs

From: Jeanette
Subject: Lots of wonderings
Message Body:
I appreciate your sound research and knowledge of scripture you use to back up what you teach on your show. You obviously have studied a lot. It saves many of us so much time in getting to the "heart of the matter" ourselves. At least you give impetus to continue learning.

I've learned a lot from what you've shown us, sometimes sorrowfully so– for to have one's eyes opened causes quite a bit of disconnect from the Mormon faith I've lived with for over 50 years. It is rather painful to face truth that my life has been built on many falsehoods I held so dear, even though I have gained a lot of good from being a member of the Mormon church. Not sure where I'm headed now. I realize you are only human and have only so many hours in a day to read all your emails, and this will be a long one, so I don't really expect an answer, except if you have time to address some of my concerns in one of your shows, if you haven't already.

Struggling with the Concept of the Godhead

I find that most of what you teach I agree with. However, I am loathe to give up some cherished traditional beliefs about the Godhead that I suppose have come from having Mormon doctrines as part of my belief system for so many years.

I am finding it difficult to wrap my head around the idea of God being three personages in one God. Can't seem to figure how that works. To me, three is separate, not one. I have to see visuals to understand that concept that seems rather weird. To believe that God is spirit and is a power without an embodiment in flesh does make sense in one sense, because that would free him up to be in and through all things in the universe. Yet, I think it is limiting for us to suppose that "spirit" is immaterial. It is invisible to our eyes, but that doesn't make it invisible to eyes that can see.

I think our mortal minds cannot really understand what "spirit" is. I would think it is something that is a material or spark of energy we don't have a concept of. I can't see my spirit, yet I know it is in me somewhere. I would think being without this tabernacle would be rather more freeing than being encased in this "cocoon" of aches and pains. But for some reason, God made me this way, after his image. So I have to believe that he, too, has a body similar to mine, with spirit and flesh. Albeit much more refined and pure.

While I have come to believe, for some time, that Joseph Smith was actually suffering from bipolar disorder– since he exhibited all the classic symptoms of seeing things that no one else saw–being visionary, being arrogant and boastful with a type of god complex, was very intelligent and egotistical, obsessive about sex, charismatic and able to come up with fantastical things, ideas, and plans, that he was able to fool everyone into believing in what he came up with because he was so charismatic, had many plans and new teachings, and believing things as real which were not–he may also had other typical manic symptoms that no one wrote about–rapid speech, and requiring little sleep –who knows. I lived with a bipolar person who seems identical to the characteristics that Joseph Smith displayed. And he did change his mind, as bipolars are prone to do, by changing his stories over and over. That aside, back to the Godhead, you are pretty adamant that God did not have a body of flesh and bones. I wonder if that is because Joseph Smith came up with that idea, so causes you to reject that idea outright? Again I say who are we to say that God could not have had a glorified body that we have no concept of. It doesn't seem to be an issue of my belief in whether he did or didn't have a body that was once like we mortals. I still view him as an all-powerful, all-wise, all-loving, grand and glorious being beyond my comprehension.

Understanding the Nature of God

It actually makes him seem more approachable to me to believe he was once a mortal like I am, but who ascended to greater and greater realms of glory as he acquired all the purified characteristics needed in order to be who he is. We see the pattern in this life, of simple to complex, becoming either better and better, or digressing into what I see…

An Inquiry into Spiritual Origins

as devilish and of hell.

Whatever.

Also, you stated once, I believe that we were not created as spirit beings in the heavens before we came down to inhabit fleshy bodies. But that we are from beneath, as the Bible says, so therefore we did not exist before but only came into being through the union of our fleshy, mortal parents creating life. Okay, does God impute our unique spirits into the parent-created bodies at the moment of conception and each of our spirits is just part of God's spirit? Wow, he has a lot of drainage on his spirit reservoir if that is the case.

What of all the moments of dejavu we have in mortality, where we feel we have come from "a more exalted sphere," or as the poets say, "trailing clouds of glory do we come from God who is our home?" I like that thought, truly. I like to think I "earned" where I was born, by previous valiancy in the eons of a pre-existent state. It helps make sense of why some are born into poverty and lack of liberty and others are blessed to be born into a land of freedom and plenty. A little Divine justice, if you will. It makes like seem a bit more understandable, at least to me to believe our places of birth and nationality are not just because someone somewhere had sex and we ended up in their family.

Purpose of Mortality

I would like to know what you say is our purpose of mortality? Why this hard school of life? I can't believe that it is just to give God some sort of ego boost to have us all turn into beings who will spend the rest of eternity singing his praises. Harp playing has never been my thing. Believing that our spirits came from God, to this life as one stage in our eternal progression to acquire characteristics that we lack, doesn't seem like it's too far-fetched even if it came from a bipolar Joseph Smith. Such people seem to be tapped into some sort of spiritual realm that most people are not, or at least a part of the brain seems to have "extraterrestrial" types of knowledge when they are manic. God did, after all, create fleshy animals as well as humans, placing all living animal life in some sort of protective family with mother and father to guard and teach the young. And in humans the ties can be very strong emotionally in a family unit. I see this as a mirror of what I like to believe existed in the heavens–with heavenly parents overseeing their billions of spirit creations. But then, that also is hard to comprehend.

Yes, I know, I know – you say that God does not have a wife. Or wives. But explain the making of male and female in God's image. Female must have been part of the Godhead. If there was no female in the Godhead, would that then make God bisexual, both sexes in one? Boy, that teaching would go great today, in this age of bisexual/ transgender and whatever gender. Seems more comforting to think of a mother and father in heaven, two beings than in a God who is a big ball of light or something without form. What would that make us if we were made in that image?

The Significance of Resurrection

Okay, so what is the point of the resurrection if bodies of flesh are not all that important? Jesus obviously took his glorified resurrected body to heaven with him. Just as we will. What is the point of being in heaven with body and spirit together, if God does not have a body like us? How can he even relate to our mortal experience, other than through Jesus who took of flesh? I'm getting hints at a higher truth here, seeing as Jesus was a God without flesh before he descended below to take that on.

I like to see the Godhead as Father and son, and Holy Ghost–the Holy Ghost being female, because females are more intuitive and sensitive to spiritual things. It actually seems more plausible to believe that the Holy Ghost was a female personage of spirit than God the father is. That would explain why no one mentions her. But if the Father is only of spirit and the Mother is of spirit, that would make sense that they had all these little spirit offspring. However that happens is beyond my comprehension.

Just a thought.

I think I heard you say something about a fleshy body would limit God's being able to be everywhere. Again I'm not sure that we can understand an infinite God with our finite minds, so I don't throw out that idea of him having a body of flesh. That idea,

Examining Joseph Smith's Teachings

I believe, was around before Joseph Smith came up with it, as per many writings through the ages. I'm worried that in your zeal to prove the false teachings of Joseph Smith, in order to focus us on our need for Christ, that maybe some things he might have said which are actually true, are being thrown out. Even crazy people are privy to truths that others may not be. A mental disorder does not mean all that such a person says is false. Anyhow, just some wonderings. You may have addressed these thoughts in some of your other videos I haven't watched yet, so pardon my wanting to know answers before I've read or seen all the information that might be available.

Thanks again for your shows. I love the fact that you can make your appearance so diverse. I've never seen a man who could alter his beard/hairstyle in so many ways. Kind of cool. Is your wife your hairdresser? Jeanette

Levels of Knowledge and Understanding

Those who push in, those who are further away did not know them best, know them as well as they suppose.

Those on the outer perimeter relate to God and Christ according to the knowledge they have of them upon exiting this world. Maybe in that place their relationship seems like heaven, like it is the ultimate, like it they are in a real relationship with them. But those who, over the course of their lives, have come to know them even better are able, by virtue of their resurrected bodies, to push in deeper into them, and deeper, and deeper.

Intimacy with God and Christ

And maybe those who truly know them, and as a result truly trusted them and had faith in them, and loved as a result, abide in them – as Christ is in the Bosom of the Father.