Follow Up to James the Caller

Heart of the Matter: A Timely Conversation on Faith and Homosexuality

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Show 38 515 Follow-up to Call from James September 13th 2016

Viewer Inquiry

How about we start off with an email regarding last week's show on homosexuality. It’s a good one from viewer Futi “down-under” a great seeker of truth. He writes:

Hi shawn. Futi here from brisbane australia. enjoyed the city of refuge episode today. You were saying you welcome and invite any and everyone. if they wanted to be baptised.. you'd baptise them.. whether its fully submerged or a sprinkling .. you'd do it. was wondering . would you marry a gay couple that loved Jesus? please know i dont mean any harm in this question.. im not gonna go post it up somewhere on the internet lol just curious.. blessings

Segment from Sorrow: A Play on the Subject

This is a really, really good question. Last week I said that if the act or practice had merit or basis in scripture we would do it – anyway it was interpreted – and I used baptism as an example as Futi pointed out. So what about marriage?

This is such an important message in our day that in a play (we are trying to get to the stage) we have a homosexual couple come to a pastor with questions. Now in the play the couple is male but tonight we are going to read through the section of the play with two females playing the roles.

So thank you Diana and Cassidy for stepping up to read with me. As a quick back story Wilma has been attending the church for years as an active open lesbian and her partner – not a believer, Molly – was finally willing to come in and talk with the pastor. So again, Molly is NOT a believer and has never been to church and Wilma is the believer who attends the church. This is how the conversation goes:

A Conversation on Faith and Sin

Pastor
So it’s good to finally meet Molly face to face. What’s it been – six years – that you’ve been attending, Wilma?

Wilma
Hard to believe. So, yes, this is Molly and she . . .

Molly
We . . .

Wilma
“We” wanted to ask some questions if that’s okay?

Pastor
Of course, anything.

Molly and Wilma look at each other.

(beat)

Molly
Go ahead!

Wilma
Okay – here’s the deal. When I hear you teach and try and take what you say and share it with Molly something is always. . .

Pastor
Lost in translation?

Molly
Bill Murray.

Wilma
So after last week’s message I told Molly that if she had questions she could just come and ask you herself. Soooooo . . . here we are!

Molly
Alright, ready, steady, go – can a homosexual go to heaven?

Pastor
Of course.

Molly
Why do so many people say, “nay nay?”

Pastor
I don’t know exactly. They probably misunderstand why people go to heaven and others don’t.

Molly
And why don’t people go to heaven – sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., right? Is homosexuality a sin?

Pastor
Very much so, yes.

Molly
So sinners can go to heaven?

Pastor
Only sinners go to heaven.

Molly
Why is this so confusing to me? I like the Catholics better.

Pastor
Probably because I’m just answering your questions without any explanation.

Molly
So would you explain?

Pastor
People enter heaven because they have faith in the Son God sent to save us. People don’t go to heaven when they refuse to believe and receive God’s Son. Homosexuality – the presence or lack thereof – has nothing to do with it.

Wilma
Told you.

Molly
So homosexuals who have faith in Jesus can go to heaven and homosexuals who don’t, won’t.

Pastor
Just like everybody else.

Molly
But you say homosexuality is a sin.

Pastor
Just like my lust for women is a sin. And Mrs. Tremblay’s impatience with difficult people is sinful, and my wife’s pride is a sin. Sin is sin – no matter what it is. We are steeped in it. And because a person believes in Jesus does not mean they are without it. By the way, your sins Molly, are not limited to homosexuality. I’m sure you are also guilty of lying, and gossiping and maybe even being a regular old jerk to people, right?

Molly
On the rare occasion.

Pastor
The question – the better question – is have you (beat) received God’s solution to the sins that abide in your flesh?

Wilma
That would be Jesus.

Molly
Thank you for that.

Pastor
Right. Have you placed your faith in Jesus as the one who came and paid for your sins and mine?

Molly
Wilma seems convinced of Him as “the way for the gay.”

Pastor
I agree with Wilma. And would add that He is the way for all.

Molly
But don’t most churches frown on sin? You seem to be saying sin is acceptable.

The Nature of Sin and Faith

I am saying is we all have it to some extent or another.

Molly: You sin, Pastor?

Pastor: We all sin, Molly. That’s the point. He came and saved the world in its sin. And He saves (those who believe on Him) from their sin as well.

Molly: By faith?

Pastor: That’s right, who receive Him by faith.

Wilma: (whispers) In Jesus.

Molly: And I thank you yet again!

Wilma: So this is why you accept me as a congregate here though I am still “guilty of the sin of homosexuality?”

Pastor: Well, I hope you will accept me as your pastor even though I am still guilty of sin in my life too. Again, He paid for all sin so sin is not the issue. The issue is faith – you, Wilma, have received Jesus by faith – and all people are justified before God by faith. So this makes you my sister.

The Concept of Repentance

Molly: So why do people always tell me I have to repent?

Pastor: Repent means to change your mind, Molly.

Molly: About?

Pastor: How you see yourself in relation to who God is – how you see Him. How you see your need for Him.

Molly: And how should I see Him.

Pastor: As necessary and important and the embodiment of love.

Molly: Funny, I’ve always seen myself as a hunk of burning love.

Pastor: You might start on that one there.

Wilma: Told you so.

Molly: Why would I? Why should I start there?

A Lesson in Love and Attitude

Pastor: Let me ask you something. Do you have any nieces or nephews?

Molly: Eleven. My sisters are factories.

Pastor: Pick one of them.

Molly: Okay. Bottles. He’s seven. Adorable.

Pastor: So let’s say that you decide to treat Bottles to a day of fun. And you take the day off from work and go to a lot of time and expense to make sure that Bottles is having a good time. Amusement Park, hike, McDonalds, ice cream, and a new X Box to boot.

Molly: I’m with ya.

Pastor: But all day long Bottles ignores you. And if he isn’t ignoring you he is ridiculing you, mocking you, he even denies that you are important. At the end of the day he doesn’t even thank you.

Molly: Little brat.

Pastor: Now you love Bottles – still. But wouldn’t you want – for his own good – for him to change his mind and attitude about how he views himself – in relation to you?

Molly: To be respectful, thankful, grateful, polite?

Pastor: Because that would make Bottles a better human being, wouldn’t it? To be that way. It’s not that you need to have him be that way. It’s that in being that way he would be a better person!

Wilma: I see.

Pastor: It’s pretty easy to see the concept when it comes to people we love here. Now imagine that we are talking about the actual creator of all things – heaven, earth, and all that they contain – including us. He governs and controls and is the origin of all life. How do you think He would want us to be toward Him?

Molly: I hear you.

Pastor: And He wants this because it will make you – someone He loves – a nicer, kinder, better, more loving child.

The Biblical Definition of Marriage

Molly: Okay, too heavy! Next question. Will you marry us?

Pastor: You mean will I officiate over a religious wedding ceremony for you?

Molly: No, I mean will you marry us.

Pastor: I can’t marry you.

Molly: (To Wilma) Told you! (to Pastor) Because we’re gay, right?

Pastor: No, because it’s an impossibility.

Molly: I beg to differ.

Pastor: Let me try and explain. And I’m sorry for the mini-sermon. But when God created Man (Adam) He formed him from the dust of the ground. Then He formed women (Eve) from his side. From the very get go they were one – from the same person. God did not “marry” them nor did He perform a religious wedding ceremony for them – there was no need. They were one flesh – came from one flesh – from the beginning. Nothing could ever change this fact. You with me?

Molly: Preach it, brother.

Pastor: Adam could have moved to Egypt and Eve to Cincinnati but they would forever be one – because they came from the same flesh.

Molly: Okay.

Pastor: Looking back on this event Moses then wrote that “for this reason a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves unto his wife and that the two become one flesh.” Again, it is the two becoming one flesh that best describes a marriage having taken place. In fact, both you and Wilma are the product of people marrying – when two people – one male and one female – became one flesh. It didn’t matter if your parents had a ceremony or not, right, they were one flesh and that is the biblical definition of marriage.

Beat.

Pastor: Think about it. Nowhere in the Bible when men took on a wife do we read about a pastor coming out and performing a ceremony to make them one.

The Difference Between Marriage and Wedding Ceremony

We see celebrations, but actual marriage was always the consummation of the two becoming one—like Adam and Eve. See the difference between marriage and a wedding ceremony? All that was needed for a marriage to take place, in God’s eyes, was for…

The Biblical Perspective

Wilma: For the two to become one.

Pastor: And no matter how hard you might try with each other, no matter how inventive you get, it is impossible for two males or two females to become one physically. Spiritually, emotionally—sure. But an impossibility for you to be one physically. It’s therefore a biological impossibility for the two of you to ever be married—from a biblical perspective. This is why I can’t possibly “marry you.”

Wilma: But we can have a wedding ceremony?

Pastor: Certainly. There are thousands of ceremonies of every lifestyle to participate in throughout the world. But no ceremony in the world will unite you in marriage in the way God defines and sees it. This is why I try and stay true to the biblical definitions of marriage.

Molly: Understood. Will you then perform our wedding ceremony?

Pastor: Thank you so much for the invitation but no.

Molly: (to Wilma) You see! (to Pastor) Because we’re gay, right?

Pastor: No. Because there is no reason for me a Pastor to perform an earthly ritual when a justice of the peace or good friend can do the same thing.

Molly: But you’ll perform them for hetero couples?

Pastor: Not any more.

Wilma: Why?

Pastor: Because it is a meaningless ritual for me to play any part. I have no authority or priesthood or power. My standing over a couple and having them repeat vows has no other purpose other than window dressing to appease cultural norms.

Wilma: But it does make it legitimate in the eyes of the Law?

Molly: Which grants associated tax benefits.

Pastor: Which again can be obtained before a County Recorder. My job is not to perform rituals. It’s to teach people about the solution to sin. And to help them in their faith, and to love.

Wilma: Are you understanding this, Molly?

Molly: Trying.

Revisiting a Recent Discussion

Okay. Thank you, Diana and Cassidy… I hope some understanding has occurred through this little drama—and thank you Futi for “the query.”

I want to spend the rest of the time working through the call we had last week from James. He came on the show with a question about homosexuals, church discipline, protecting the fold, authority and the like. It was a fantastic call in many ways because James reasonably represents what most Evangelicals maintain and backed his representations by excerpts from the Bible. Our friend from Ireland wrote in that he would make a great guest next year because he was equipped and able to present his arguments well.

The problem with the call was it was a shot gun call—meaning points and responses were scattered all over the place. So I want to use the main points of his call to respond to at a slower pace. And we’ll begin by my reading what he said—and then I’ll stop and try and offer a reasonable scriptural retort.

We started off by James thanking us for some of the stuff we do (for the LDS, etc) and then addressed what he called “the gays and the live and let live approach,” something I believe it important today.

His question was what about Paul in 1st Corinthians clearly teaching that “a little leaven can corrupt the whole loaf and if sin is not confronted then it can corrupt the whole church.”

In the end I pointed out several things: First that Paul’s advice was to them at that day. That the church was young and needed to hold together until the end of the ageThe close of the old covenant era, fulfilled in 70 A.D.—not the end of the world., or the end of all things as Peter called it—which would be realized at the fall of Jerusalem where the Saints would be saved and the unbelievers destroyed.

Understanding the Context

That was the context and the advice was to the people of Corinth—who needed to hear that. The problem with James question and his use of Paul’s words in 1st Corinthians as the foundation for it is his belief that:

1. The bible was written to believers corporately today and should be used to physically govern believers today (this idea is NOT an instruction from the Bible itself)

2. Similarly, that the advice Paul gave in a letter to the believers at Corinth applies to all brick and mortar churches around the world today,

3. That there are brick and mortar churches existing that are akin to the churches like the one at Corinth and

4. That with these churches there exists the same authority and the

The Role of the Bible in Modern Christianity

same dangers that existed in the primitive church. While it sounds really good and true – none of it is.

Now, instead of having a pissing match with James and the rest of the Christian community who sustains his views, I just want answers to the following – from anyone –

• If or since the Bible plays such an important, vital role in Jesus’ Church today, when was its contents (the New Testament) available to believers and followers of Christ? When – in full – not pieces of it – when was the NT available to all believers.

• Where does the Bible indicate that its contents are to be used to govern brick and mortar churches today? I am WELL AWARE that people believe that this book ought to govern gatherings of believers but where does IT tell US that is what it is for?

Church Discipline and Protection

James and I talked about the need (or not) to purge the body today of sin – with him suggesting that it is necessary and my stating that it’s not possible. James suggested that we need to protect the young ones in the flock from deception and we didn’t really talk about this – so let me say that I agree with him – the flock does need to be armed and protected.

My questions are two:

• Why? If once saved always saved where’s the need? (and since I don’t agree with OSAS my second question is . . .

• How do we protect the flock?

Now James, in our conversation at this point asked me: “Don’t you believe in church discipline?” (my response was no) and he said “even though it is all over the Bible?”

Teaching and Governing by the Spirit

This leads me to how we protect the flock today: By teaching the word to the best of our ability. Honestly, openly, genuinely – but we leave the disciplining to the Holy Spirit.

I trust that God is in charge of His church by the Spirit – and has been from the get go, that the need for men to govern by discipline was for them, in the day and age of the primitive church, preparing and protecting them from the coming end of that age.

James has adopted the rhetoric of Man that says we are to take the Bible and assign all that it says to ourselves, as a church – but it’s just not so – and the approach has done more to harm the Good News than held.

Now at this point, James says that the Word of God is eternal and is always applicable. I said that if that’s the case then we need to follow ALL of God’s Words –

He said, let’s do it –

And I said that this would then include the Old Testament and we’d better start stoning people.

And he said something interesting at this point. He said: I think that post Christ everything that is written is applicable to us.

Now, James has every right to this opinion – love him no matter what – but do you see what he has done?

He has made the decision that we can take everything pre-Christ and discard it in terms of its application to governing, but he thinks we should take everything POST CHRIST and make it applicable.

Why would he agree to taking everything pre-Christ and say it no longer is needed – because he has admitted that the word of God, for that day and age, is no longer applicable!

He has admitted that we do not need the contents of the Old Testament to govern us because that was for them in that day and that age.

This makes sense. Most agree – not all – but most.

However, James has decided (along with millions of others) that we “ought to take everything POST Christ” and that it is applicable.

I would just as ardently maintain that everything written post Christ was written for them in that age – and age some 1900 years past – and that when it comes to governing people physically it cannot be used in this manner.

That age, that content is over and done.

So how is the Bible applicable to us today?

Personally. Subjectively. We read and study it and let the Holy Spirit move those who will hear to actions of faith and love.

We teach its spiritual principles, couched in physical events long since passed, and use them to encourage and correct and guide every individual believer. But the days of assigning its contents and placing its ways in

The Spiritual Kingdom Beyond Brick and Mortar

The hands of men to exact, interpret, and administer are OVER, OVER, OVER. Brick and mortar is dead. Intervening men called and taught by Christ are all dead, all that is shakable has been shaken down to dust, and the Kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future. is entirely spiritual. No longer is there any need for one man to instruct others on how to live, for all will know Him.

The Authority in the Spiritual Kingdom

When I declined on the need for church discipline (even though James says it is written all over the Bible) and we talked about the power of the Holy Spirit to disciple verses men. And at this point, he brought us the value of church authority when it comes to disciplining sin. I asked, “what authority?” He said, “the Lord has given us men with authority.” I said, “what authority are you talking about?” He said:

“Any of the authority that has been given by the laying on of hands by the direction of the Holy Spirit.”

Now, I want to point out that again, James is appealing to the apostolic church, who, in the custom of the Hebrews, did appeal to them laying hands on others to set them apart for their specific role in what they would do – but this was NOT to grant them a priesthood authority. I was to designate them. And listen – IT WAS FOR THAT DAY, and that age, and that time of the brick and mortar, to organize a physical kingdom on earth which Jesus was going to come back and collect.

End of An Age

Those apostles died – and left NO successors. None. Why? Because there is a priesthood of all believers – male and female today – governed by the Spirit and not by ANYTHING that can be shaken. The days of shakable kingdoms of brick or mortar or flesh or blood or orders or ordinations are done. Over. The end of that age has occurred. Jesus has had the victory. And the Spirit reigns entirely in the hearts of those who are his.

James' appeal to a line of authority is both sophomoric and ill-informed. He means well. He echoes the sentiments and the narrative he has been fed and digested, but it cannot be supported by history or holy writ. Most importantly, it cannot in any way be supported by what I would call effectual evidence – in other words, we have never been able to establish a ruling class of men who govern the church effectively. Does God use individuals in his body? Absolutely. But things get really ugly and corrupt when men decide that they are governing believers who are actually being led freely by the spirit.

All the men who claim or have claimed authority have conjured it up out of thin air – from the Catholics to the Mormons, to every pastor or preacher on earth who somehow believes that they are the priestly intermediary between God and man to teach, mediate, discipline, or govern God’s kingdom. Alright, interesting stuff. Let’s open up the phone lines 801 590 – 8413. While the operators are clearing your calls, take a look at this:

RUN NEW SPOT HERE!

Hi Shawn,

I have enjoyed your "Heart of the Matter" videos on YouTube. I live in the Phoenix area. I have spoken with Earl Erskine, and John Traynor who know you. I had tried to resign from the church before but my Bishop and Stake President came by the house and talked me out of it. Since then, I have become quite active in a Christian church in my area and I have accepted Jesus and am saved. None of my family knows this. I am divorced and my 4 daughters are all married with families of their own. They are all active Mormons just how I raised them.

I'm going to be resigning again as I can't be attending one church meeting, then rush to my ward meetings. I'm tired of pretending I know the LDS church is true. Still, when I read the bible the "Mormon filter" kicks in… I've received a lot of answers from the Christians that have satisfied me. How long did it take you before you resigned? I don't know why I hesitate to do it. I'm over the anger pretty much that I had for quite a while when I learned that the church had deceived its members, and all I sacrificed and taught all those years was a lie!

When I resign is it necessary that I talk with my bishop? Or can I

Praying to Joseph Smith

From: Andre from Sweden
Subject: Praying to Joseph Smith

I served a mission in England London mission 97-99. When I was going home the missionaries who were going home had a meeting with the Mission president by the London temple. He talked to us and ended the meeting with a prayer. We all knelt down, he started to pray to God but a few minutes into the prayer he started to pray directly to Joseph Smith. At the time I thought that it was something new. I didn't know we could pray to Joseph Smith. As the years went by I kind of forgot about it until I became born again and remembered, didn't the mission president pray to Joseph Smith? This is true and how I remembered it. It's not my way of trying to slander the mission president. Listening to Kunzler BYU talk I understand why he prayed to Joseph Smith cause that's how he views Joseph.

Understanding the Concept of God as Truth and Knowledge

Commentary on why this would be: Get ready for this: (conversation with Warren) God is truth and knowledge – not a personage that is true and knowledge – but truth and knowledge itself. This – Truth and Knowledge – fills personages, who then become Gods – like heavenly father, and His Son, and you and I if we do all we can to receive the truth and knowledge as it's presented. In other words, if someone fully receives God – truth and knowledge – then they would also be God – and worthy of our prayers, I suppose.

This is a very different idea among Christians who see God as a singular entity from whom truth and knowledge originate and reside. This God can share Himself with us but none other exists that is fully Him from the beginning.

Addressing Social Media Complications

From: Erik J
Subject: Facebook etc

Mr. McCraney. I know, I know, I know…you hate Facebook, however it is a medium that is being used copiously by the younger generation and they NEED to hear your preaching about God's Love and the holy beauty and truth of salvation found in the scriptures. Now more than ever we need all hands to the plows. I went ahead and started an "unofficial" CAMPUS & HOTM Facebook Page in the hopes that souls will be drawn to the good news of Yeshua and of salvation by Grace through faith in Him. You have given me so much. I literally was born again and found Christ because of your ministry! Thank you with all of my heart! I pray that the Holy Spirit may always attend you and keep your heart pure. I would really like to attend Milk and Meat someday. Your brother in Christ, Erik. 406-210-9196

p.s. Danny said that he was going to put a fire under your butt so that you guys could possibly work on getting an interstate directory together for believers looking to network with each other in their respective States. I'm up here in Montana waiting to meet some other CAMPUSers! 🙂
https://www.facebook.com/groups/348069782249046/

A Year-Making Email

From: Ed S

Hi Shawn firstly, Thank you for your boldness to never back down from the Christian community that have been trying to shut off your ministry. After watching many shows and hearing your heart, I am appalled and really embarrassed at the things that you have had to go through in dealing with all the hate coming from the evangelical church. Really I am ashamed of us as believers, where is the love? I too have many of the same views as you have so I guess I am also on the outside now…

Well, I am not a Mormon and I have never been to a Mormon church. I am a Christian. I was saved in 1998 and I was 25 years old. I am writing to you today because your program and ministry has impacted me in ways you probably will never know. I am a truth seeker. I found some of your old videos on YouTube about a year ago because I was trying to gain information about witnessing to a couple of Mormon friends. I assumed your ministry was to reach Mormons, and I guess it still is. Just in a different way now. I have watched almost every Heart of the Matter show (I did skip a few in 2012, I wanted to get to the good stuff). As I grew in my faith over the years I have attended more than 10 Christian non-denominational churches in several different states.

Understanding American Christian Church Indoctrination

(I know what it is like to move to a new state, I am praying for your you and your wife as you make your new home in Utah).

Anyway, I had a typical indoctrination into the American Christian church. Hell is eternal, Christ is about to come back (we think it’s in our lifetime etc.), pay your tithes, quit sinning, and all that good stuff. Almost everything made complete sense, I never thought twice about anything I was taught. After I had been a Christian for about 10 years, I began to see that there were many things that we were very dogmatic about that just didn’t make any sense. And it seemed that the things that should be boldly proclaimed were being missed. If Christ was returning in a few years, months, or days, shouldn’t we all be out on the streets warning people of His imminent return!?!

So I took an evangelism course while I was attending school at Liberty University Online. After this I couldn’t help but desire to head out to the streets and evangelize the lost. I took more evangelism classes and learned how to effectively witness using the “Way of the Master” method (LOL!) All the while scared that Christ would return at any moment. I have spent years of evangelizing on the streets in Phoenix, California, Seattle etc., all the while I couldn’t help but think that I was still missing something.

The Realization of Biblical Teachings

The more I studied, the more I saw in the word that Christ couldn’t be coming back soon, his disciples clearly understood and wrote in their writings that He was returning soon, and Christ in Matthew 16:28 himself stated that the people standing there would see the things he said before they died. With just a few scriptures from the New King James Version without even reading the book of RevelationA symbolic prophecy fulfilled in 70 A.D.—not a prediction of future global events., I can come to the simple conclusion that Christ already came and completed what he said he would complete. No PhD, ThD, Pastor, Elder etc. could convince me otherwise. If it is in the Bible, it trumps your doctor’s degree in theology, sorry. And after watching your show, and another couple of pastors who do not think like our typical American churches, I began to see clearly that my thoughts over the years were true. I was missing a lot and the normal route of the material churches were not teaching this.

As a matter of fact, once It settled into my soul that the entire Bible was in the past and we are on the other side of that, and my job is to love like Christ loved, I have so much peace and no fear of the impending destruction of the earth. By the way, IF God created this world for his good pleasure and he said it was good when he was done, why on earth would he destroy it? These are the thoughts I would ask myself… I use to desire to be a pastor, now I desire to serve wherever God has me, and I am completing my degree in Clinical Counseling. PRAISE AND GLORY TO GOD for he rules forever!

Moving Beyond Traditional Church

I am so tired of playing church. It is nice to gather together as believers, but you are so right, the way in which we have been doing church for 1500 years is just off, and I for one am done with traditional church. I love my pastor, but I think it is time that we as Christians start opening our eyes to the truth and push against the brick and mortar church and become love to the world. It is what the world is waiting for! Love you brother, and praying for you and your family. I will be in touch

In Christ, Ed S.