Exploring Accusations and Intentions

Introduction by Shawn

Shawn will explain what we are doing and why. He will introduce Sarah of CMC.org and explain in what capacity she has joined us. We will refute the idea that this interview is contrived or planned or set-up. But that Sarah is going to legitimately ask questions (relative to the accusations against Shawn from Apologia Radio program, Cult’s Apostasy and Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.) and she will follow-up with more queries surrounding his replies.

Proposed Questions to Frame Our Conversation

1. SARAH – “Because of you, and Dave Bartosiwitz and Lee Baker leaving Mormonism, becoming Christians, and then moving away from Protestantism, James White now teaches that anyone coming out of Mormonism should not teach or be given any sort of teaching position until after 8 years of exposure to the faith. Comments?

2. SARAH asks Shawn about his history especially coming out of Mormonism and his roadside experience.

3. SARAH – Jason Wallace (JW) makes a big deal of the fact that “Shawn, by his own admission, never attended any Christian church services except for maybe three or four before going into ministry.” Explore and/or explain this for us as it is a good point.

4. SARAH – So, briefly share the backstory to coming to Utah and doing show.

5. SARAH – The JW documentary about you, called The Bible verses Shawn McCraney, takes sections of a number of your more controversial shows, pastes them together and presents you in a light that would be considered heretical by many Christians – especially Calvinists – but also many other expressions. What is going on there and what is the backstory to those clips?

6. SARAH – In part II we will directly address the attacks and the slights against you, and your response to them, but what have been your intentions with all of this? People and critics have long said you are doing what you are doing for fame, for money, for power, and along with all of this to be another Joseph Smith. JW contends that you are representing another version of Mormonism. How do you respond to this and the charges that have long been leveled at you and your intentions?

7. SARAH – What about the specific charges that you are out for:

   • FAME
   • MONEY
   • POWER
   • CONTROL
   • TO DECEIVE
   • BUILD YOUR OWN EMPIRE

8. SARAH – Okay, so next week we will begin to directly address the charges that JW and JD have laid against you – and that includes some of your doctrinal positions that I am also interested in challenging. So wrap it up Shawn.

Shawn's Responses and Thoughts to the First Set of Questions

First Show

Shawn will explain what we are doing and why. He will introduce Sarah of CMC.org and explain in what capacity she has joined us. We will refute the idea that this interview is contrived or planned or set-up.

Exploring the Journey from Mormonism

But that Sarah is going to legitimately ask questions (relative to the accusations against Shawn from Apologia Radio program, Cult’s Apostasy and Shawn McCraney) and she will follow-up with more queries surrounding his replies.

First Show (Taped Sunday April 25th 2021 to air Tuesday April 27th 2021)

• “Because of you, and Dave Bartosiwitz and Lee Baker leaving Mormonism, becoming Christians, and then moving away from Protestantism, James White now teaches that anyone coming out of Mormonism should not teach or be given any sort of teaching position until after 8 years of exposure to the faith.

SHAWN That’s convenient isn’t it? Isn’t it another way of saying, nobody should be allowed to represent the faith until they have been completely won over by traditional rhetoric and then fully embrace what the orthodox churches demand that they believe?

• Sarah asks Shawn about his history especially coming out of Mormonism and his roadside experience.

The Road from Mormonism to Individual Beliefs

SHAWN

• Jason Wallace (JW) makes a big deal of the fact that Shawn, by his own admission, never attended any Christian church services except for three or four.

• EXPLORE THIS – the pros and the cons.

SHAWN Include the way JW and JD see this (as a weakness) but How I saw it as a benefit and strength. “Old bottles and new wine” This approach kept me from living and representing the established traditions of men – something they find reprehensible, but it is something that they cannot even agree upon! Why would I sidle up to any of those traditions? So even from out of the gates, I was an independent, learning, perceiving and changing according to what I saw the scripture saying and not just accepting the traditions. That being said, I did unwittingly embrace some standard Evangelical fare – eternal punishment, literal burning hell, the Trinity, an eminent second comingChrist’s return, fulfilled in 70 A.D., ending the old covenant—not the world., and things like that – without any question. I trusted, once again, the teachings of others over what I saw the Bible as ultimately saying.

• Sarah: so share the Backstory to coming to Utah and doing show.

SHAWN

Navigating Resistance and Independence

• Resistance to my appearance from day one from the local pastors. WHY?

• Was not part of any accepted group. Even Calvary Chapel. WHY?

• Who was I here to please? The Catholics? Not according to the Protestants! The Protestants? No according to the Catholics! Orthodoxy? Southern Baptist? Pentecostals? Orthodox Presbyterians? Who? Who would I please? Which side would I take? The most powerful? The wealthiest? Wouldn’t a better approach be that I start and remain unencumbered by any and all religious powers and orthodoxies, all traditions, and instead let God guide me by His Spirit along with a sound understanding of the Word?

• Sarah – The JW documentary about you, called The Bible verses Shawn McCraney, takes sections of a number of your more controversial shows, pastes them together and presents you in a light that would be considered heretical by many Christians – especially Calvinists – but also many other expressions. What is going on there and what is the backstory to those clips.

SHAWN

• HOTM was a show – first and foremost. It had to be open, free and honest. Everything I said in those shows I meant at the time – and I still agree with most, at least the heart, of what I would convey at the time. But there are some angles to that. And the first angle was it was a show that talked about religion. We had unvetted

Faith and Identity

Callers calling in, we were trying to tackle huge topics on a dime, and I was not out to try and create a religious empire off of that show. I was trying to open up minds and to express myself freely and honestly along the way. If someone who claims an orthodoxy was invited to do a show, they would do so as a means to represent Orthodoxy. A Mormon would want to present Mormonism. A Catholic Catholicism and the like. I did not want nor would I represent any ism or ist from the get-go and this was the beginning of the problem – especially from a pastor's point of view. They wanted me to say and do what represented them and their specific flavors. And depending on how regimented the pastor was on their specific flavor of the faith the more or less critical they were of my stances.

Secondly, I was, unlike my orthodox siblings of every walk, open to change. I entered public life convinced of certain things. The essence and core essentials of those things has never changed with me over the years since my roadside experience. I have always remained true to the working definition of the Gospel Paul provides us in 1st Corinthians 15. I continue to openly preach and teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, suffered for the sins of the world, died on a cross, and rose again on the third day. I teach and fully believe that Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith, that there is no way to the Father but by faith on and in His Son and that all people must be born from above to even see the Kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future.. No question.

Challenges to Tradition

However . . . along the way, a number of other facets that some people make essentials have cropped up and tested me, in several different ways, and when I tested them back, and found them wanting. And over the course of public ministry, I have changed my views. To someone who leans on traditions of men, and what they believe are orthodox doctrines and practices that have stood as Truth, these changes of mine have caused them to conclude that I have fallen, that I have become heretical in my faith, that I have apostatized, that I am a cult leader, that I am dangerous, one of the most vicious people imaginable and that I preach liberty but lead people to bondage. These folks call me a charlatan, when all the while I have always stood by biblical tenets of the Gospel and promoted Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life. This is not enough for them. They demand allegiance to the constructions of men in order to be accepted.

Allegiance and Criticism

These constructions of Man include the concept of the Trinity, eternal punishment, an end of the whole world, an eminent second coming of Christ to the earth, and the ongoing attempts to play church in the way that the Apostles demanded it be played in their day and age. I have sound biblical reasons to reject some of these traditions, while clinging to the Gospel essentials – but again, this will not do. My zealous brothers and sisters want a total commitment from me on things I cannot honestly say I accept or believe. And because I won’t, or can’t, they attack.

Sarah – In part II we will address the attacks and the slights against you, and your response to them, but what have been your intentions with all of this? People and critics have long said you are doing what you are doing for fame, for money, for power, and along with all of this to be another Joseph Smith. JW contends that you are representing another version of Mormonism. How do you respond to this and the charges that have long been leveled at you and your intentions?

SHAWN
Again, super convenient to take a guy who was once a Mormon, and who sees the fails in the Modern Christian church, many of them the same as the founder of

Examining Criticisms of Religious Leaders

Mormonism, and to deduce that he is just another form of Mormonism or that he is attempting to be another Joseph Smith.

• Bottom Line, Smith had some good insights into the problems of Christianity in his day and just because he was a conman and deceived people does not make his insights wrong.
• Additionally, had I wanted to become another prophet, and to become famous, and to get rich, I could have. That would not have been difficult. Just would have had to tap into the core traditions, use some skills at teaching and preaching, written a few pleasing books, and never really rocked the boat all the while pretending to rock a few boats, and the fame and money would have come. But we have always been about the truth, supported and sustained by the Bible and what it says and not what men say, and we have always been willing to suffer losses as a means to get to it and stand by it. That is the price for reasonable, contextual, unaided by Man truth in this world – loss. And criticism, and punishment by the religious police of every age. Jesus was put to deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. by the same. Paul, the same. All the apostles but John – the same. John Calvin did the same thing to those who differed with Him. It's proverbial.

Responding to Allegations

SARAH

What about the specific charges that you are out for

• FAME
• MONEY
• POWER
• CONTROL
• TO DECEIVE
• BUILD YOUR OWN EMPIRE

SHAWN

Fame

Look, if we wanted fame, we would have embarked on all sorts of ways and means to grow the ministry. We stepped through some doors that opened to us back in the day but we would NEVER kow-tow to the piper to make a name. Let me give you an example. Years ago I got a call to be interviewed by Lou Dobbs. He is an extremely conservative Christian reporter that has a national program. This was at the height of our popularity. They wanted me to represent the Evangelical view of things relative to Mitt Romney running for president. One of their producers called me a day or two before the interview and was prepping me on what to say. And I had to stop her and tell her that I was not in agreement with the comments she wanted me to make or the side she wanted me to take. The interview was cancelled the next day. Fame seeking requires taking a desired stand that makes people happy to embrace. That is NOT our priority. Our priority is to turn over every theological rock and claim, to test it, and stand by what is sound relative to biblical context. Fame seekers have to make a claim and stick by it. Truth seekers will change when the truth is challenged and found wanting.

Money

History of money with the ministry. Our developing the partners program. All to get me out of debt. All to make the ministry fluid. But like fame, building wealth comes at a price – one I was not only unwilling to pay but one that went counter to how I have always seen the faith as being about – giving, not taking, not charging, and never using God’s name to justify donations. We have, from day one, had integrity when it comes to how we exist financially. Without exception. We have never told people that giving was

Financial Approaches in Ministry

Expected of them in God’s name, we have never used the anachronistic word tithes on anyone, we have never held a collection of money for any cause in our church, we have always told people that if they are retired and on a limited fixed income that they should not give to our ministry. Twice, over the course of our ministry I have gone to men with means and asked them to support a publishing project. I ultimately regretted those requests even both times they were granted. I was learning. But we have always kept a very distinct approach to financial support for the ministry and church and that distinction could be summarized as biblical in every contextual sense of the word.

Allegations Addressed

Power and Control

This is one of the most comical and laughable criticisms about me. That I am a despot demanding that people believe or act in ways I determine as right. I openly challenge anyone to step forward and explain when I have ever mandated that do believe anything I teach or say or that they do what I say. We are the antithesis of an evil cult. We are founded on the exact opposite principles of such as we promote, believe and teach freedom in Christ. We stridently teach that Jesus alone is our individual arches, that He is to whom we give allegiance and no other.

Accusations of Deception

Of all the claims against me, I have to say that this one hurts me personally the most. I am willing to admit that fame and money could serve our efforts if we had them, but I am nothing if I cannot be open, transparent, and clear on my intentions. If I have ever deceived someone as a teacher of the word, I am sorry. My intentions, while the outcome may be faulty, are true and based on the hope to enlighten minds with His will, His ways, and His truths. If there is an eternal hell proven contextually by scripture I would (and once did) teach it (until the evidence contradicted that stance.) If God is a Trinity and I can see that clearly defined in scripture you can bet that I would teach it – as men have concocted it, but I do not so I don’t. So while I might make errors and I have and will continue to still change my mind on things, I never ever want to deceive anyone, and am more than repentant if or when I have ever lead anyone astray.

Intentions of Building an Empire

I have to admit to this being a partial truth, with some caveats. First, if you said, “to build an Empire,” I would admit to this desire. But it would be His empire, not mine. I am the most sinful man saved by the most holy and pure. This will never change. And so the Empire I long to help establish must be His. Additionally, the way His Empire must be built is by His means and ways, and not mine nor mans. This means letting Him build, letting Him bring the increase, letting Him provide – not me, not man – Him. After all, it ought to be His doing these things if it is his empire. If it were mine, I would institute mandatory giving, allegiance to my views, and I would put myself at the center of it all. That is not what we have done and it is not what we will ever do – God willing.

SARAH – Okay, so next week we will begin to directly address the charges that JW and JD have laid against you – and that includes some of your doctrinal positions that I am also interested in challenging. So wrap it up Shawn.

SHAWN Write your comments below PLEASE and we will see you next week here on HOTM! And thanks Sarah and Checkmychurch.org