Heart of the Matter and the Trinity

LIVE! From the “Mecca of Mormonism” – SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH! – This . . . is . . . Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where Mormonism meets biblical Christianity face to face . . . . Show 31 Seventeen Points XIII The Trinity – Part III

. . . and I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Events and Announcements

Hey, this coming Monday night, July 28th from 6 to 8 pm, join us in Layton for a book signing at New Life Christian Books. Address is: 1550 North Main Street in Layton. Now why don’t you come out and take a look at the store. It isn’t easy running a Christian Bookstore in Utah, and these people need your support. Even if you have nothing to buy, come on out and pray over the store! Huh??? Eh???? So I hope to see you there. (And by the way, Dolly Books there on Main Street is now carrying “I was a Born-Again Mormon.” If you live up there, go on in and grab a copy).

My good friend Robert point something out to me relative to the supposed conflict in Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9 – he went to the Greek.

Acts 9:7 reads: “And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:9 reads: “And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Hearing “a” voice is a general word, and “heard not THE voice is a specific term.” Just more proof for the infallible word!

Saturday, September 20th, from 3-9pm at Sugarhouse Park! Food Bounce houses Music Churches, ministries, and messages?

Burning Heart ‘08 The Day of Decision Please join us and invite an inactive, lost, name on the records only family, friends, or neighbors.

Received an email from a well meaning Christian who wanted to know why I don’t spend more time talking about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, Church History, etc. Couple of things: First, we have. Go to www.hotm.tv and you can see all the past shows in our video archives. Second, we will continue to. Beginning in January of 2009, we are going to pick up at Carthage Jail right after Joseph Smith was shot, and spend the year combing through LDS history from that point up to the present. Finally, we are working very hard at getting all the shows duplicated and available for your viewing pleasure. Stay tuned for more on this later.

Project Abandon Ship

How are you doing, folks? Have you sent your letter in? Made your request to no longer be known as a “member of Mormonism?” We are getting more and more letters from people all around who have taken the steps to have their names removed from LDS church records. And the general consensus we hear from folks once it is done? Peace. Tranquility. A renewed dedication to know God. And even some elation and pride for finally taken a step forward. Want more information? Go to: www.utlm.org www.bornagainmormon.com

A Christian television host in Atlanta recently sent me this news release she received. It’s about a new book that is out to “defend Mormonism”

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Let me tell you – and we’ve said this before on HOTM – Mormonism is stepping into the fray “guns a-blazing” and are going to any and every measure to present Mormon doctrine, history, and present-day beliefs as biblically sound. Using the media. Sound bites. YouTube. Newspaper articles. Supposedly kind and gentle dialogues, public appearances, and so-authored books to show that “we really can be friends.” Yet at the same time, the LDS church continues to support the non-biblical doctrines espoused by founder Joseph Smith even to the point of going beyond the pale of gratitude in reverencing His name and edited legacy!

The result? So much spin and declarification that it is becoming impossible to know what it true and what is not for unsuspecting members and non-members alike. Go to UTLM.ORG Why? They use LDS materials to contextually prove LDS doctrine, history, and present day beliefs.

Hand in hand with the recent “defense of the faith” position many LDS are taking at the lay-level, I received two emails this week that used the same exact line on me: “You have been deceived.” Now, let me assure you, I am a Bible-believing Christian. I love the Lord, I’ve repented of my sins, and I seek to follow Him by obeying He and His Word. I have faith, love, hope, and assurance in what He did in His life, on the cross, and in overcoming deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God.. I seek the Holy Spirit in my life. Yet, the claim is I have been “deceived.” I have been deceived because I wholly accept Jesus as sovereign Lord.

The Trinity Reviewed

of my life, and now reject

A treasure-seeking boy’s story about golden plates buried in a hill near his home? His multiple-ly revised story of seeing God? His claims at translating funeral papyri into a book he claims came from Abraham? His Masonically based temple rites? His beliefs and practices in polygamy? I’ve been deceived? Who, in light of the evidence, has really been deceived here?

And with this, let’s go to the source – even God – in prayer.

As you may recall, we have been reviewing the Trinity for the past few weeks here on the show. Two weeks ago, we established the Biblical FACT – FACT – that there is only one God. Last week, we illustrated through the Bible that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each God share the same descriptive names, including The truth, Almighty, Lord, Eternal, Powerful, Holy.

Equality in Attributes

We also pointed out that the Bible assigns them the attributes equally, including: Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Holiness, And even the name and title of God!

In response to the Christian position of One God of three persons, the LDS have some standard and not-so-standard responses. Tonight, we’ll name and respond to some of them AND also show you how the LDS view of God “morphed” and rearranged itself over the life and time of Joseph Smith.

One of the first responses – juvenile responses – you will receive from the LDS defender is that the word Trinity is not in the Bible! We’ll let’s first use their logic and apply it to their claims, okay? New and Everlasting covenant isn’t in the Bible, Pre-mortal existence isn’t in the Bible. Families can be together forever isn’t in the Bible. Want me to go on? Look, we all understand codifying words, don’t we? We understand and use words to help all minds large and small understand concepts that are perhaps too broad or difficult to use in day to day life. Get over this one. The idea, the concept of trinity is all over the Bible – all over it. But I have to be honest. You probably won’t see it until you possess spiritually regenerated eyes.

Ask ANYONE who has come out of Mormonism to biblical Christianity and all of them will express how the make-up of God became CLEAR to them once they allowed the Lord to change their hearts.

Common Arguments Challenged

Another argument the LDS will use to attack the biblical truth of One God of three persons is by using statements and situations in the Bible to supposedly prove that the Trinitarian notion is false. There are a few popular ones. One is when Jesus Himself said in John “The Father is greater than I.” “See,” they will say, “diffeeerent peoples! Jesus wasn’t God. He was just His Son.”

Again, this is the problem with taking specific verses and using them as proof-texts for the entire Bible. Interestingly, Jesus also says in the same chapter of John that He was “I Am,” which caused the Jews to take up stones for what? Making Himself God! He also said He was “equal with God” (in John 10:33), was worshipped from a baby in a manger to a resurrected being, told Philip that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

But aside from all these instances, we still have the greatest foundation of all upon which we stand: There is either one God, there is no God, or there are many Gods. The Bible fully supports One. Therefore, with Jesus being worshipped, called God, and making Himself equal to God, the Trinity is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE, CONTEXTUAL theology!

Another response, which is similar to the last, is the LDS citing that Jesus prayed to the Father, that the Father spoke to Him out of Heaven, or that the Bible proves His subordination to Him. While these references are all correct, they are not correctly understood.

Biblical Facts of Trinity

When we forget any one of the following biblical facts regarding God, we run into this type of errant reasoning the LDS missionaries and defenders resort. There is One God. There are Three Persons. They are equal but with different roles.

Remove or alter ANY of these biblical facts from your mind, and you will begin to say insipid things like, “was Jesus praying to Himself?” Again, There is ONE God. There are THREE Persons. They are EQUAL, but with different roles.

Now, these three “rules of thumb” may lead us to another classic LDS response: “I don’t understand this God? How can I worship something I don’t fully understand?” My response is “how can you worship something your little mind can comprehend?” In reality, this point perfectly illustrates the difference between the true Christian heart and the True LDS. A biblical Christian’s heart would say, “God is so great, so awesome, so

Understanding Different Perspectives on the Trinity

"Powerful, me, a sinner, a man of flesh, will never comprehend Him, His Power, or His Love."

But the true LDS heart replies:

"I am so advanced in my righteousness and life choices, so steeped in my possession of the Spirit, that I am able to almost easily grasp the nature of God because when it is all said and done, He's just like me!"

Get it? Two more common LDS responses to the Trinity. They say –

"The trinity doesn’t make sense? CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity page 165: 'If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.' Let me repeat that last line: . . . anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about."

Because the ego-centric notion that God was once a man, who has a father, who has a father, who has a father, who sired Jesus as any man would sire a son is easier to accept and understand, it does NOT mean it is right!

Finally, and in another somewhat sophomoric level of thinking, some LDS defenders will use the rudimentary elements of arithmetic to prove their multiplicity of Gods.

Doesn’t one God the Father, plus One God the Son, plus One God the Holy Spirit equal THREE God’s? (huuhh huhhh huhhh huuhh). God is a triune being, not a triplex. He is a single house more akin to a foundation, walls and a roof rather than three houses connected to each other. One essence. One Being. Norman Geisler said: "There is no more mathematical problem in conceiving the Trinity than there is in understanding 1 cubed (or 1X1X1 – which equals One)."

Analysis of Mormonism's View on the Trinity

In the end of it all, let me assure you that as a Christian, you have far more to stand on relative to the Trinity than anything the LDS would say to criticize it. Let me tell you why. First, as we have shown, the Bible supports the codification completely. But secondly, Mormonism itself – historically and through the Book of Mormon even today – support the Christian constructs of Trinity. Let me explain before we go to the phones:

I have long maintained that the Book of Mormon is nothing more than a fictional book which borrowed heavily from themes found in the Bible, from Joseph’s own community and country, and from his own family situation. This is what makes it so benign (in nearly every way) relative to the Bible. Joseph wrote the book early in His life – when I believe he was still attached to a desire to lead people to God and Christ through good religion – before the women, the power, the money, the fame, and the wildly imaginative mind took over. As these Joseph-centered traits took over, His idea and notions of God changed. But he had a problem – the teachings in the Book of Mormon.

In 1837, eight years after the first publication, he went back to the book that he supposedly translated by "the gift and power of God" and changed passages that presented God the Father and the Son as one God to a description of them being separate beings. This means – now listen to this – this means that Joseph accepted the idea that the book could be changed. So much for a pure translation. But Joseph was growing in popularity and I think he grew tired of trying to correct his mistakes – people seemed to accept Him and his writings no matter what they said or how they contradicted each other.

Changes in Doctrines and Teachings

So he only "rewrote" doctrine in 1st Nephi. (11:16, 18, 21, 32; 13:40). Trouble is, the Book of Mormon retained some other doctrinal teachings relative to One God he never took the time to fix. CITE PASSAGES HERE:

In the end, we see that Joseph’s “later” doctrines and teachings about GOD not only conflict with the Bible, they conflict with what He accepted as truth when he compiled the BOM! My friends, I am not picking on Joseph Smith. Many, many a man has gone from good intentions to the fringes of thought. David Koresh began as a believer. Armstrong was once a solid believer. Jim Jones started as a teacher of Truth. We see this time and time again. But Joseph was shot early in life. And with his body went his growing postulations. Brigham added a bit to the craziness. A few others set it all in concrete. And now millions

The Trinity

Embrace it as truth.

There is One God. He is of three Persons. They are equal but with different roles.

We call this the Trinity.

Contact

Let’s go to the phones:

(801) 973-8820
(801) 973-TV20

Conclusion

Hey remember the book signing! This Monday evening at New Life Christian Books on 1550 Main in Layton 6-8pm.

God bless you. We’ll see you next week . . . HERE . . . on Heart of the Matter.