Unconditional Election: A Discussion

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Show 19 445 Matt Slick – Part II Unconditional Election
May 12th, 2015

Last week we had the privilege of having brother Matt Slick in the house to share his views on the five points of Calvinism. We did not do very much talking with each other but both Matt and I were able to share the way we understand the nature of human kind – with Matt suggesting total inability and me standing with the idea that while sinful and certainly prone to wander, human beings have the ability to respond to God or to reject Him. The following day, Matt and I – with our dutiful team here in the house – took a few hours and pre-recorded our views for you on the other four points that are used to summarize Five Point Calvinism.

These points include, of course – Total Depravity (which we covered last week). Tonight we will play our presentations on what is known as Unconditional Election. Then in the following weeks we’ll air our respective presentations (unedited) on Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints or Once Saved always Saved.

Different Views in the Body of Christ

As far as I’m concerned the GREATEST benefit of having Matt on the program was NOT to sway you to Calvinism nor to Arminianism or Total Reconciliationism BUT to show you that there are different views that can, will and do exist in the Body of Christ relative to these models but that does not mean ANY are absolute or infallible nor does it mean believers cannot get along if they differ on them. In my opinion, if a thief can be with the Lord in paradise who apparently lacked complete knowledge of ANY and ALL of this stuff then NONE of it is a hill to die upon. I’m not so sure Matt agrees with this but it is certainly my opinion – again – If the Good News has been received by an individual they are my brother or sister in Christ and the differences can be settled in love by Him and His Spirit.

Okay, so let’s open with a prayer and we'll get right into our topic for tonight –

Understanding Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election. I will start and Matt will wrap it up and both combined will take about 25 minutes. When we return, we’ll take your calls and I think Matt will be joining us through Skype.

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

SHAWN: So last week we discussed the Calvinist idea of Total Inability. Tonight we’re going to hit on the U of the TULIP – Unconditional Election. The Calvinist tells us that man has no ability at all to cry out to God for His mercy. All humanity, therefore, will certainly perish apart from a forceful intervention from heaven. There is no hope whatsoever that man's will can open him up to the gospel. God must reach out and change the man into a new creature who then possesses the will to do right.

Additionally, according to Calvinism, there is nothing, at all, that a human can do to motivate God to intervene in their lives – He must choose to intervene or the soul is not just lost but is lost forever and not just lost forever but burning in literal hellfire forever and ever and ever . . . Without reprieve. Because God is God, the Calvinist also believes that God decided, before the beginning of time, whom He would save with what we might refer to as His "effectual call" and whom He would leave to suffer forever in anguish and pain.

Calvinist Viewpoint on Election

Again, let me reiterate – God is NOT picking people because they are better or qualified or evil or good – He picks because He wants to pick whom He picks and therefore rejects whom He rejects because He wants to reject them. We – human beings, are not at all involved in this picking which occurred from before the foundation of the world. This is the doctrine commonly called “Unconditional Election,” meaning He elected some not upon conditions but unconditionally. Now, many Calvinists today will claim that God DOES not choose or elect the majority of people who burn forever. They support this position by maintaining that God only elects those whom He will save, not those who are damned. But any thinking person has to admit that the doctrine of Unconditional…

The Doctrine of Election

Election has a flip or B side – what we might call “Reprobation,” which holds to the idea that God also foreordains the damnation of the non-elect. It’s a reasonable idea – if God chose who He would save from before the foundation of the world, being all-knowing, He also chose who would be damned forever (since there is NOTHING a person can do to be saved outside of God choosing them.) One of the greatest strengths of the Five Point Calvinist position is the fact that scripture is replete with examples of God telling us that God chooses certain individuals, people, and nations to do certain things.

Examples of Divine Selection

God chose Israel, irrespective of merit or status (according to Deuteronomy 7:7-8). According to Romans 9:11-13 God chose Jacob over Esau before either "had done anything good or bad." Acts 13:48 tells us that when the apostles preached to the Gentiles, "all who were appointed for eternal life believed." Paul in Ephesians makes election pretty clear when he says: "chose us in him before the creation of the world" and "predestined us to be adopted as his sons." (Ephesians. 1:4-5).

In the opposition to Calvinism – called Arminianism – something I also reject – God’s selection or election of people is based upon His foreknowledge of them having faith. In other words, God knows who will merit being chosen (due to their faith) and selects them. This view places the onus of being elected on the individual, who would then have a purpose for boasting. Don’t agree. Scripture does not say that God chose us because He knew we would choose Him. That would certainly be no choice at all on the part of God. In my estimation, this is a man-made attempt to refute Calvinism . . . but it's still from the mind of man.

The Sovereignty of God

Somehow believers have to be able to look at the abundance of biblical support for election and make sense of them relative to the Sovereignty of God, His will being accomplished and the will human beings are given to either choose to hear His call . . . or not. Divine election is clearly a Bible doctrine. It no more belongs to the Calvinist than to anyone else. It is really a part of the larger Scriptural theme of the Sovereignty of God, found everywhere in both Testaments. God sets up and deposes rulers (Ps. 75:6,7), operates the forces of nature (Job 37), overrules evil for good (Gen. 50:20) and has "determined the times set for them [the nations of men] and the exact places where they should live" (Acts 17:26).

Dewey makes no metaphysical distinction between the election of grace and the election of mundane affairs of life. All are the result of divine sovereignty, which is past finding out. "…the apostle says, that Christians are 'predestinated according to the purpose of him, who worketh all things, after the counsel of his own will.' If this be true, then everything is a matter of divine counsel; everything is disposed of by election. And men are as much elected to be philosophers, merchants, or inhabitants of this country or that country, as they are elected to be Christians. If this is election, I believe there will be found no difficulty in it; save what exists in that inscrutableness of the subject, which must forbid our expecting ever to fathom it."14

Election is true, but is shrouded in deep mystery. It is one of the secret things that belong to the Lord our God (Deut. 29:29). Calvinists and Arminians both err when they make precise statements about the nature of election. God has not told us whether or not there are conditions attached to it, and we should not venture into it with such bold assertions. The Calvinist, however, does need to temper his view of election with the clearly revealed truth in Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"

Too often, we hear Calvinists say that the damnation of the non-elect is "the good pleasure of His will." But here, God states explicitly that He takes no pleasure in damning anyone but prefers that they turn from sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. and live. How this idea fits into the Calvinist scheme is not at all clear. Nor is it clear, from a Calvinistic standpoint, why Jesus should weep over Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed.

Total Reconciliation

"to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Things like this present some real difficulty for the Calvinist. First of all, he must assume that the choices of Jerusalem were "the good pleasure" of the Father. If this is so, why was it so displeasing and heart-rending to Jesus, who was always in agreement with the divine will? Shouldn't Jesus have also been "pleased" with the Father's rejection of these people? Secondly, Jesus is here attributing the lost condition of Jerusalem to her own unwillingness, not the lack of election. Here Jesus – God in the flesh – was willing to receive them but they were unwilling. This is a direct contradiction of the Calvinist assertion of Unconditional Election.

So is there an option in scripture that refuses both the Calvinist's Unconditional Election stance and the Arminianist response to it? If you have been a viewer of our program for any length of time you will know that I wholly embrace a position that:

• accepts the biblical teaching of the sovereignty of God
• accepts the biblical teaching that God does in fact elect all who are His to salvation,
• a position that accepts the fact that God does give all people freedom to choose while reaping what they have sown, but
• a position that supports the fact that our sovereign loving God will have total victory over the wiles of Satan and the will of man.

The Concept

It's a position I call Total Reconciliation and it works like this. By and through His mysterious foreknowledge of all things God, out of the perfect loving goodness that He is, first elected a nation to bring about the Law, Scripture, and Messiah. This nation would not only produce the Messiah – it would kill Him. God then elected those who by His foreknowledge knew would receive His only begotten Son by faith in this life to not only become His Son’s and Daughter’s but to be saved from hell and the second death. By His foreknowledge, God knew that few would receive His Son by faith in this life and designed hell – a dark place of misery for them to reconsider the choices and lives they lived.

Scripture tells us hell gives up its death and its inhabitants then stand before the Great White Throne to be judged and to see if their names are written in the lamb's book of life. If it is, those who have been in hell will at this point be reconciled to God – not as joint heirs with Christ, but as something else. Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life are cast into what is called the Lake of Fire, prepared for Satan and his angels – and not human beings by the way.

Outcome of Total Reconciliation

Revelation tells us that this lake is located in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels. It is a place of cleansing by fire, purging by light, and a place where a cup of God’s wrath is poured out – signifying a limited duration. The length of time or span of age that those cast into the Lake of Fire is unknown, but what we do know is that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord AND . . . AND . . . AND scripture tells us that nobody can confess Jesus as Lord but by the Holy Spirit – so the assumption is at some point in time every person will possess the Holy Spirit to some extent or another.

Wholly supported by scripture and a sound, contextual understanding of it, Total Reconciliation, again:

• Allows God to remain more than just Sovereign but just, loving, and merciful.
• It allows Man to have free will and the right to chose whom he will serve.
• It allows for all of us to reap what we sow.
• It allows for God to elect all of us to places He knew we would end up by and through our faith (or lack of it).
• It admits hell, a lake of Fire.
• It admits the glorious blessing and reward for those who choose Jesus by faith in this life.

Reaching Mormons with Biblical Truth

Emails and Questions

Hi Shawn and team,

I am an ex-Mormon, having left during my late teens and finding Jesus in my late twenties, about 10 years ago. My brother and mother and most of my extended family are still LDS. I want to finally try and reach my brother with the truth so I started writing him a letter. At first I was going to just address (expose) the salient points of Church history and Joseph Smith; the ones that leave Mormons questioning everything they've ever been taught. However, the Church has wizened up in recent years and realized that denial of scandalous details will no longer cut it, but ownership must be taken and damage control must be done (via spin and, at times, tremendous mental gymnastics). I began to feel like this approach might be ineffective because I know my brother would just latch onto whatever far-fetched reasoning FairMormon provides and call it a day.

So then I thought a better approach might be just to try and reason with him from the Bible about God, salvation, man, and the nature of our existence, knowing the Bible is backed by substantial linguistic, archaeological, and historical evidence. Of course, a full understanding of Biblical salvation is tied to an understanding of the purpose of the Mosaic Law, which is to reveal to us God's holy, perfect standards, and in the process, show us our sin, and therefore, our need for a savior.

I couldn't remember any distinct Mormon teachings about the Mosaic Law, so I searched on LDS.org to see what I could find. I came upon an article called "Reflections on the Law of Moses: Old Testament Apostasy in Context." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/06/reflections-on-the-law-of-moses-old-testament-apostasy-in-context?lang=eng

I was shocked by what I read in this article. Never have I heard that Mormonism believes, based on D&C 84 and the Book of Mosiah, that the Old Covenant was really a new, lesser covenant given to Israel because they were "found to be in an apostate condition and unprepared to receive" the ancient Covenant given to Adam.

The article I read condescended the ancient Hebrews, saying they could not understand the "higher law" because they were disobedient to the "lower law" and God only gave them what they could understand; that is "carnal commandments" to live by. Wow. Joseph Smith totally turned the Old Testament on its head, twisting and perverting purpose for the Mosaic Law. Now I feel like I can't even reason with my brother about biblical salvation because his understanding of the purpose of the Mosaic Law is totally warped.

So, long story short, I want to know what you recommend as a strategy, in addition to praying fervently for God to open their eyes, to try and reach a lost Mormon family member who is totally committed to believing anything and everything the Church tells them. As I said before, I think we have reached a new era in LDS history where the Church is taking control of information they can no longer deny and spinning it every which way they can think of (as an example, have you read the FairMormon explanation of why Joseph lied about committing polygamy in Nauvoo?). I'm also wondering if you've ever done a show on Mormon doctrine regarding the Mosaic Law, and if not, if you would be willing to do so.

Thanks so much!

Marie in Thornton, CO

Addressing Mormon Doctrine

Shawn,

I’ve heard you mention that there is no need for prophets and apostles; my guess is this ties back to the ‘Great Apostasy’ as claimed by the LDS Church. I’ve also heard you say that if this really happened then that would mean the Satan triumphed over Jesus. Can you send me a couple of suggestions where I can read about solid counter arguments to the LDS Church’s claim?

Seeking truth,

Kyle

Questioning Predestination in Calvinism

From: JAKE

Subject: Calvanism

Message Body:

My question to Matt Slick and calvanists is that if salvation and coming to the Lord has already been predetermined by God then what is the point of all this preaching and teaching??? Seems that the only rational conclusion is that:

• preaching has nothing to do with it
• prayer has nothing to do with it
• reading scripture has nothing to do with it
• matt's radio show has nothing to do with it

God's decision has already been made and it's extremely arrogant and wrong to think that depraved human beings will have any influence on HIM… Stop wasting your time.

Hi Shawn,

I sent in some questions last night via your web portal, unfortunately I cannot guarantee you received it correctly: so I include a Microsoft Word copy attached to this email.

I am happy for the history/background part to be

Addressing Calvinism and Broadcasting Challenges

Aired so to put the questions into context for any viewers should the questions manage to be put to Matt Slick and yourself as part of the Calvinism cycle of presentations. As you might guess the history and events are factual unto myself – no problems with giving a live example to seek an honest response from Matt.

I expect from last night's show that I would probably just be told I was guilty of pride and that despite all I have suffered that I can look forward to just burning in Hell forever: Well if that it was the God wants then so be it, maybe Matt is prepared to come and visit me from time to time as I don't accept the principles of Calvinism, and will continue to seek God in Spirit and truth.

Anyway, hope your shows go well and thanks to Matt for attending and trying to explain a few points: Even if one can hardly understand a word as he is so obsessed with quoting references often out of context and with such frequency as to make his presentation almost gibberish to the average viewer. After being burned by the LDS though false interpretations and doctrinal spin of educated men; it seems amazing that any ex-LDS revert to Calvinism trusting yet another academically inspired man made religion.

Best regards,
Mike

Observations on the Show with Mr. Slick

Hi Shawn, I watched your program with Mr. Slick. What I thought was that he didn't address the five points of Calvinism I thought he was supposed to talk about. Instead, he went on and on about "total depravity", and to me, he did not make any sense at all. My husband and I felt his arrogance by the fact that he expounded upon his own credentials and education, spouting off scripture so quickly that no one could be expected to know them, and going off point many times trying to crack jokes and elicit laughter and compliance with his answers. He also was insulting to the audience, and to you, to the point one woman hung up after he would not address her concerns in a respectful manner. He made the comment that he would cut people like her off if they said the things she was trying to say on his radio show.

The Core Issue of Belief and Salvation

Why would anyone want to listen to him now, with that kind of a closed mind attitude? Where is the love of all people that God wants us to have in his teaching? And, more importantly, what is the point of ANY belief if God has already chosen and determined who he wants around him and who he will punish for things they have no control over? And, if that were true, why did He send Jesus to save us? Makes absolutely no sense at all. It totally takes away the need for Jesus. We were frustrated after listening to him and feel that he did not use his opportunity to enlighten anyone about Calvinism, or Christianity for that matter. How sad.

Acknowledgment of Different Teaching Approaches

However, on the other hand, you again, presented your side with concise precision, using scripture and reasoning to explain the "heart" of the matter, and dispute his position. We find you to be sincere in your presentations and the love you try to express with regards to your beliefs, move us in more ways than I can express. I am not sure about all the things you teach, but I am open and trying to learn as much as I can about what God's will is, and his plan for each of us. I think you are right when you say the "basics" of the Gospel are all we really need know to come to Christ and be saved.

I also think that the other stuff doesn't matter if you have been "born again" because the rest will follow, and belief faith will get you to where Christ is. What else matters? Nothing, in my mind, but I do believe that we all benefit from seeking truth and light, so in that respect, I love to learn as much as I can to further my knowledge, and quite frankly, I believe in almost all you teach. Not sure about total reconciliation yet, but open to it for sure. My mortal self has a hard time forgiving all that I have gone through with being lied to and such, but again, I am trying to get there and believe that giving it to God, is the only way to make that happen. So, I trust that if total reconciliation is right, I am happy and I accept it. Really, what could be wrong with having those we love get to where God is, eventually?

The Impact of Teaching the Gospel

Praise God for a perfect plan. I want to thank you for your show and your dedication to teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because of you, many people, including me and my husband, are progressing in knowledge, exploring ideas and much more. We appreciate the spirit that lives in you that helps us learn what is right, reasonable and easy to put into practice. Love, which is not always easy to feel for everyone, but really is the only way to set ourselves free to experience all that God wants for us. Thanks again for opening a door to help people, especially me, a former Mormon, to come to truth. We support your ministry and ask God to bless you in your continued efforts to teach the word.

Your sister and brother in Christ, Sandra and Acenio Estrella

Challenges with Religious Affiliation

From: Bron Bybee

Subject: Resignation letter

Message Body:

Hi just wondering if you can help. I sent in my resignation letter and it was finalized 3 years ago. I moved and every sunday I have them coming by my house wanting stuff. I've told them over and over to leave me alone. Last sunday I looked at there envelope and it had my name and address on it. I put a note in it saying to leave me alone and I wont say it again. What can I do besides keep telling them I'm not interested. Love the show! Thanks!

From: Ms Jerry Litton

Subject: Questions about LDS

Message Body:

You cannot understand the time I am having to get to you to ask a couple of questions! My first attempt to ask these questions my computer just shut your site right down. Humm. Then the next time I guess I touched the wrong button:( Humm. So here I go with my third attempt to ask those questions. I have in about the last 5 weeks been visited by LDS "Elders" trying to show me the way. They have stated to me that the Book of Mormons is the only undefiled word of God on Earth today having been translated only one time.

Also they tell me that from the Book of Ezekiel chapter 37 we can tell that we are decedents from the tribe of Ephraim. This comes from the writing on the sticks. Could you help me make sense out of these statements?

Thank you so much.

Seeking Guidance and Understanding

Hi Shawn!

I get your weekly Podcasts on iTunes and I listen to them often. I live in Seattle, WA and I would love to call into the show. What day and time is your show and how could I watch it live, and be able to call in? (I do not have a TV, but I have a computer). Also, is there anyway I could get your book "I Was A Born Again Mormon?" sent out to me? I know you said you would send it for free for those who cannot pay at the time? Also, do you have your book in audiobook form?

I have attached my personal testimony of Jesus Christ if you ever wanted to read it. I look forward to hearing from you! -Joshua Turner

From: Aaron Jackson

Subject: Joe Smith question

Message Body:

Love the ministry!!!! Keep it up!!!

I have heard that Joseph Smith was known to smoke peyote. Is there truth to this or is it just rumor?

I have learned a lot from this ministry about the Mormon Cult. May God continue to Bless You!!!

From: Jennifer Shafer

Subject: I want to be an Ex-Mormon

Message Body:

I am a Mormon at the moment but I have done so much studying that I just can't believe in this religion anymore. I recently started watching your show and I find it entertaining and informative. I just want some help to explain to my roommates why I do not want to be a member anymore. I give a reason and they retort with some very convincing arguments, including scripture. I would love to email you some of the arguments and counter arguments. this is probably stuff that you have gone over time and again, but something I have not heard you talk about is the Mormon church service every Sunday. I was just shocked one day when I realized that it is just sheep leading sheep and we are not learning anything! The member of the congregation gets a topic to give a "talk" on and then what? There is no priest, preacher, or pastor to tell everyone what he has learned or to help us to glean anything from the speech. My friends argue that there is a bishop… Why doesn't he teach us then? The last time he gave a talk…

Reflections on Faith

We spent the hour singing children's hymns and then he gave his opinion on some things… it was not at all helpful to the state of my soul. I only ever gave a 'talk' one time and I felt obligated to say "I know this church is true." I felt sick when I said it because I think in my heart I knew that was a lie. It seems to be one of those tactics where they try to get you to believe something by saying it over and over again.

Struggles in Provo

I feel like my friends are so deluded! I want out of Mormonism. Its kinda hard to be not Mormon in Provo…

Personal Sentiments

Anyway, thanks for reading!

Love Always,

Jennifer S.