Matters of Faith and Politics

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Show 46 523
Time Capsule
November 8th 2016

Election Day Reflections

Well, one of the biggest dividers on earth within the faith has arrived – voting day – and apparently here in the United States we are going to elect a new president. It’s been a big UGLY deal here in the states as both candidates from the republican and the democrats appear to be somewhat malformed. One side claims evil evil actions and the other side claims ego-centric maniacal narcissism. Online I am told Christians are roaming about demanding allegiance to “the Christian” candidate while pastors not so subtly suggest that there is a way that true Christians should vote.

The other night I walked out of a grocery store and a woman walked right up to me apparently recognizing me or seeing the cross on my hand. Without any explanation she said, “Hi. I have a really important question to ask you.” I said “okay.” She said, “Can a good Christian really vote democrat?” Her face was earnest. I said, “A good Christian can vote anyway they want.” She said, thank you, and walked away.

Good Christians belong to a body of believers in Christ. We look to Him as our King. If we choose to vote while on this earth, we vote for who we want, just like we buy the cars we want, we see the films we want, we eat in the restaurants that we want, and we attend the schools we want. In my estimation there is no more a single Christian candidate than there is a single Christian denomination. How can I say this?

1. We have Christian brothers and sisters who are part of the Body who live in North Korea. What are their politics? Who cares.
2. We have Christians who live in Castro’s Cuba. They look to Christ and live – who cares about their political views.
3. We have Christians who live in Muslim run countries. Do we care who they vote for on this earth?

Last week pastors all over stood at their pulpits and said in the name of God that it was a Christian duty to vote – some suggesting that there was even a Christian candidate! Ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Romans 14 tells us plainly that God puts in office whom he will. I trust this. I also trust that we have a king and He reigns over the true kingdom to which I belong. Furthermore, I believe that politics are just another way for believers to try and control, police, and divide the true Kingdom to which we all belong. Vote or not, Hilary or Trump or whoever – or not. None of it is a Christian duty. There is no Christian candidate but Christ.

Be free from the cares of this world. And join in the affairs of the Kingdom run from above.

Genuine Love and Acceptance

Hey, what does it mean to really love others and how do you express this Christian verb in your life? I was invited to dinner with some folks awhile ago who are believers but don’t agree with the way I see elements of the faith. They have been kind to me since I “came out” and started questioning things and I honest to goodness believed that they were just having dinner with me because they possessed unconditional Christian love. Truly. I really did. And I was so grateful for their unconditional acceptance of me.

As the dinner wore on and all sorts of niceties were shared it became apparent that they had some real heart-burn for me and suddenly it dawned on me – this time together, this dinner and fellowship, was an effort to reach me and recoup me back to the faith they believed was “right!” In other words they had an agenda and they didn’t just want to break bread with me – this was a lost sheep mission. I was actually stunned – mostly at my naivete and stupidity. They didn’t love me as I am – they were on a mission. This caused me to ask.

The Way of Unconditional Love

A general question:

“Hey, why exactly are you guys sitting here with me? I mean, I’m not coming back to your way of thinking.”

In the end several admitted to me that our time together was only to try and bring me back to what they believed was the fold. I was heartsick, felt so stupid but I did realize something – there’s a giant difference between the way they saw people (who disagree with them) and the way I see people who disagree with me.

1 John 4:8

Because of Jesus in me I am able to love all people for who and what they are – as they are. I may not like them or their views or ways but I do love all people of every view, every beliefs, and every opinions – whether they concur with mine or not. Of course it is a hope that all will receive the Lord – but that decision is up to them. And while I know that perhaps the best chance that they might have to know Him is through exposure to Him thoruhg others this is NOT why I hang with the homosexuals, or the homeless, or the sinful – I hang with them because I actually do love them. As they are.

I believe that this is the way God is and that this was the way Jesus was. I don’t believe they only hang with people whom they can convert – to me that’s a human game.

So in the end I don’t believe that Christian love is conditioned on whether a person will convert or not. We love as He loves – unconditionally, always, for every type of person and every people group – and not just because we think we can win people over to our way of seeing and believing. That’s how I see it anyway. And with that let’s go to our Board of Direction.

Us Versus Them

I’m really not so sure that what I am about to try and flesh out will be understood because I’m not sure that I understand what has been on my heart. When we enter into religious allegiance there is a great tendency to see God and our relationship to Him in an “us verses them” model.

Represented by this:

(ON BOARD)

Us Them

In this model we (Evangelicals, Mormons, Baptists, Calvary Chapelers, Catholics, whomever) have put ourselves into a group of acceptability and assumed that any or all that are not part of this group are therefore the “them” and are somehow displeasing (or off) with God – and if displeasing to God then headed to hell. It is really easy when we allow ourselves the comfort of being an “us” to not only look out and down at all who are not in the group but to vet, and police, and judge and criticize all who come our way.

Us and Him

I have started to try and understand the way God sees the human race. Instead of there being an “Us Verses Them” maybe there is an “Us and there is a Him.”

(ON BOARD)

HIM

So there is God – who created all things through His Word

HIM

And there is all of us – His creations – and we might put ourselves all on a continuum relative to how we see or view Him that might look something like this:

(-) (+) (++) (+++) (++++) (+5)

Understanding Our Relationship with God

We don’t care about Him at all. We deny His existence. We fight against Him. We believe there is a God but don’t know what. We see God through means that do NOT include Jesus:

• Isla
• Hin
• Bud

We see God through a means that "includes" Jesus:

• LDS
• JW
• Christian Scientists
• Oneness Pent
• 7th D A

Viewing God Through Institutions

We see God through Jesus and Religious Affiliation and Allegiance:

• Catholics
• Legalists
• Denoms

We are born again by the Spirit and have been adopted into His Family by faith. We have become Sons and Daughters to God by dying to self and the flesh and loving all people.

___ the Rebellious __________________

The seeking______________

TRUE FAMILY OF GOD

Professors of Christ____________________

__ His Children

Process of Becoming Children of God

Joint Heirs With Christ

POINT NUMBER ONE: Being rebellious certainly does not make one a member of the family of God, but neither does just seeking, or even professing Christ.

POINT NUMBER TWO: We must be born-again to even see (what I would say means to even have the capacity to see) the Kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future..

POINT NUMBER THREE: Becoming a Child of God through Rebirth is up to the Spirit and can include any person from any group – this is God’s business – but the way to know if they are His is by their LOVE (deemed selfless, gentle, kind, longsuffering, not self-serving) and whether this is known or not this capacity for love ALL comes by Christ.

POINT NUMBER FOUR: The goal is to become a Son or Daughter. The question then is, HOW does a Son or Daughter of God relate to all people in these other groups? By and through LOVE. By and through the Fruits of the Spirit.

Back to seat: HERE’S THE POINT – If becoming a son or daughter is the goal – and it is the goal, and sons and daughters of God are known by their love for God and Man.

Envisioning a Sustainable Christian Faith

Who does ANY OF THE REST OF THIS MATTER at all? Why rumble around in the mud over here or over there?

Let’s launch into tonight with a hypothetical situation.

Time Capsule to 2066

Let’s suppose I had an opportunity – today – to take a time capsule – one that will be opened in 50 years – and in it I get to lay out what I believe are the essentials to a most sustainable Christian faith.

I want you to try and imagine the following scenario. The year is 2066 – fifty years from today. The world is a very, very different place. Advances in medicines have increased the average human life by several dozen years, there have been technological advances in almost every area of existence, our children are now senior citizens and our grandchildren are middle aged.

The State of Christianity

Particular to our interests, Christianity has unfortunately crumbled into several rather frightening groups. First, there are those that have grown bigger. They preach a gospel of positive thinking, operate amusement park-like churches, and never say anything that would offend anyone – especially the Government or Corporations. They are the world of Lukewarm Jesus.

Other groups cling to the fringes of existence, and most of them thrive (underground) because it’s illegal to speak openly in this future society. These groups thrive on continued zealotry abstracted from (and justified by) an errant use of the Bible. They rage against the sins of the world, against homos and lesbos and trannies, and promise an eminent coming return of Christ to wipe everyone out (except those who join them) once and for all. They threatened eternal burning hell to all who are outside their views – all. And while they demand biblical literalism, they cannot agree with each other on how to apply them.

But in between these polarized extremes, there are millions of people who, while silently clinging to some sort of belief in God, really don’t know where to turn. On the worldly entertainment end, the empty optimism makes them sick (in addition to the relentless appeals for money) but at the other extreme, the zealotry of the fanatics has proven too much in the face of scientific evidence, reason, and the rationality of the day.

A Message of Hope for the Future

Now come back with me forty-five years to the present. Here we are and we have an opportunity to offer those seekers in the future “hope.” (in and through Christ). We have an opportunity to lay out an approach and view for people who cannot abide the corporate model of material religionA fulfilled system of temples, rituals, and laws—replaced by direct spiritual relationship. but neither can they stomach the fear and guilt and hate of the underground fanatics.

So let’s itemize some things for them to know in our pretend time capsule.

Essentials for a Sustainable Faith

1. Paper Number One (HOLD UP PAPER SLIP) I would commend all readers to know that God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten Son and that this Son in fact, came, lived a real life, died a real deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., shed His blood for the sins of the world, then rose from the grave – proving that God accepted the offering of His life for this world, and then ascended into the heavens, promised to come back with reward and justice, and He did.

2. Paper Number Two (HOLD UP SLIP OF PAPER) I would explain that all of the material and spiritual history of God working with and through human beings can be found in the Bible. I would strongly suggest that this history of God working to save humanity is over and therefore I would add that the material application of religion is over – wiped out with the destruction of Jerusalem so much so that nothing shakable remains – except spiritual lessons and applications we are all free to extract from the text.

3. I would emphasize (THIRD PIECE OF PAPER) that the story and life of Jesus must be accepted by faith and by and through this faith all can experience spiritual rebirth by which they can have peace in their hearts.

4. (FOURTH PIECE OF PAPER) And I would encourage them to go to God in prayer, ask God to open their eyes to Him and His Son and then wait for Him to move and act through His Spirit.

5. (FIFTH PIECE OF PAPER) I would tell them that when God moves He will give them a new heart, and they will become a new creature in Christ, and that perhaps one of the best indicators that God has given them new life is they will begin to see (perceive, understand, reflect) upon

New Life in Christ

This life and this physical world in a way that is different from how they have ever seen it before… that this may be one of the first things they notice about the New Life within them.

(NUMBER SIX PAPER) I would then emphasize to them that they are babes in Christ and they need to be patient with themselves and with the ways in which God works is working in and with them. Along with this, I would greatly stress that the single most important thing a babe in Christ needs is nourishment and that spiritual nourishment comes from reading and hearing the Word of God.

The Role of the Word of God

(PAPER NUMBER SEVEN) I would emphasize over and over and over again here on point number seven, that the person needs to let the Word of God enter them by the Spirit. That (again), the material applications of that old world – that of playing church are OVER, OVER, OVER – but that subjective personal spiritual lessons remain for all humanity.

On Paper number EIGHT I would emphasize that we do not believe in the Bible any more than we worship it. We believe God and worship Him alone. And would add the ditty:

• The Spirit is Primary and Preferential
• The Bible is Secondary and Referrential
• Church history is tertiary and deferential and
• The influence and power of the modern brick and mortar churches (with all that they have entailed historically) are pretty much done and inconsequential.

As an addendum to this, I would reemphasize that the Bible is a personal map (and not an institutional manual) and possessing the Spirit, all believers are both subject to its directives and not the demands of any man or any religious institution on earth and personally responsible for the choices they make.

Christ's Fulfillment and Reign

I would then add a note that troubles and confuses many people today – and (NUMBER NINE) would say:

Everything is finished and over by way of material religion. He has returned to His people as promised and brought upon them judgment (with the destruction of Jerusalem) and reward (by saving His Church).

And I would cite one passage in all of these time-capsule submissions:

1st Corinthian 15:3 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

Repeat this part again…

1st Corinthian 15:3 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

And again…

1st Corinthian 15:3 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

… when… he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And I would conclude (NUMBER 10) by telling them that since the destruction of Jerusalem that Christ the high priest has come out of the Holy of Holies PROVING that He has had the victory, that he did return to His own as promised, as the apostles taught that He would and that that “THEN CAME THE END, and that Christ has delivered the Kingdom up to the Father, that God is now all in all, and He reigns entirely by His Spirit – which is love, love, love.

Therefore all people are free to live their lives as the result of this victory He has had over all things. That we share Him and this message of Good

Walking by Faith and Love

News as led, that we choose to walk by faith and love or not, and that we are all now responsible for the Christian lives we live. And I would suggest that the earthly reward for being a Christian is inner peace and the heavenly rewards come in and through the resurrected body all people will receive from God at death. The last paper I would put in the time capsule would end with an emphasis of the two Christian commands: Faith and love. Faith and love. Faith and love.

Important Correspondence

Okay, let’s open up the phone lines (801). While the operators are taking thy calls, let's consider the following: (RUN SPOT HERE PLEASE)

Email from Rory Wynhoff

From: Rory Wynhoff
Subject: Follow up with Matt Slick

Hello again Shawn,

I know what it is to be out in the flesh thinking I have some new take on something, only come to see I'm wrong… been there many times over the years. God will happily show us the way back when we want to see it. Automatically he has put me in his box as he has suggested that:

“I’ve been “out in the flesh”
“Thinking I have some new take on something”
“Only to see I am wrong”
“And God will prove it when I want to see it.”

Great way to start, eh? He continues

Mormons I have talked to say it is all about the burning in the bosom that drew them into its grasp. That subjective feeling with nothing to test it against. Even if they did have a burning how do they know it means what they have been told it means? They don't without something objective to set it against.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

How do you know what this testing means if it doesn’t have an objective-true for everyone meaning? You don’t, you have just entered no-mans-land. How can you tell a Mormon today that what they believe is wrong? You can’t! You have opened the door for them to say that this verse or that means whatever they say “the spirit” has told them it means, and you have no recourse because you have said yourself that it is subjective.

Brother, take this to the Lord Jesus Christ like your life depends upon it! Actually it is not just your life, but all the souls that you have influence over that depend upon it. You have given them the green light to believe and to do whatever they please. Don’t believe me? You will in time, but it is much better to arrest the damage now at this point. I could tell you horror stories of the shipwrecked faith I have witnessed because every man did that which was right in their own sight.

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” 1 Jn 2:3

How can we know anything if it is all subjective? Please come back to the word of truth! “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” As is implied, there is A RIGHT way to divide the word of truth, God did not leave it to every person to decide for themselves. That is simply eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, exactly what got all us into this mess to begin with.

God bless,
Rory Wynhoff
Nampa, Idaho

Email from Tyrone

From: Tyrone
Subject: Mathew 7.1
Message Body:

Shawn, I am loyal follower of yours and have been for at least 5 years. I have called your show once because I was very confused why the old testament is still being used, Your answer was satisfactory but I had some reservations about your answer because I was deep in the study of the covenants and what is meant by conditional and unconditional. I came to the conclusion that the division that you see with modern day religion is mission statements.

Your last show with Matt Slick made me filter what Matt was saying because most of what he was saying was all conditional and my understanding of the New Testament was that God was writing his word on your heart. You made an amazing comment on one of your shows that was…

Reflections from a Navy Drill Instructor

So true to me by comparing church to the military. The reason that comment was so powerful for me was that I served in the navy for 20 plus years and at one point I was a drill instructor. I realized when I was a drill instructor that I was very influential in these young mens lives. I pretty much taught codes of conduct and mission statements from the military institutions. These were mostly young men who decided to join the service either through patriotism, family tradition or simply because these young men needed a job. My goal was to strip these young men down to nothing and rebuild them. The biggest hurdle I had was to get rid of bad habits and replace them with a code of honor. I realized when I graduated these young that my imprint on there lives changed the way they looked at the world. It was validated by the parents at graduation who came up to me and told me they didn't recognize there sons anymore because they had become more respectful and more caring.

During that time in my life I was a more fulfilled person because I knew I restructured these young mens lives. This experience made me realize that some churches use this tactic of stripping you down to nothing but they do it in a more subtle way to get its members to conform. The biggest asset is the fellowship, just like in the military….people in general need something they can compare with. The biggest difference was that I instilled pride that was needed for them to be good sailors. There are some churches that commit the biggest sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. of teaching pride instead of faith. I saw it with your guest Matt Slick. I am turned off by anyone quoting scripture to justify an argument. I can do what he has done to show how smart I am and it is very much impressive.

Evaluating Faith and Conformity

Yet I saw Matt make academic arguments which were void of faith. This prompted me to visit his site CARM and look up Mathew 7.1. As I suspected, Mr Slick used other scripture to justify the mission statement of his church and not let Mathew 7.1 stand on its own. These were Jesus words in Mathew 7.1 yet Matt connected it to other scripture so that he can judge on his site. The other scriptures are talking about the abuses of the early church…not faith. What Matt does…. and I am not judging him as a man but his methods. He overloads you with scripture to confuse the topic so he can get his mission statement out that represents his choice in religion. I know the difference in faith and conforming people.

Now I have a question about dogma and reality. I really can't get my head around why there are 10 commandments and not the list of the 613 found in the Talmud. Who determined the 10? My image has always been based on the movie the Ten Commandments. This also appears to be a mission statement considering we are flawed and unable to follow the commandments. This is why I ask the question when I called your show over a year ago about the old testament. I question the old testament but have no doubt that Jesus is real if that can make sense to you. Thanks Shawn for consistently living with truth.

Historical Perspective on Joseph Smith

Shawn, Do you know if there is anyone or any group that has any plans in making a movie about the historical Joseph Smith? The reason I ask is because the Joseph Smith story is not only a Mormon story but it is a historical American story as well, I believe would be very interesting to the American public as a whole. When one looks at the Joseph Smith story as a whole and from an unbiased point of view it seems that his ambitions were more than creating a church it would seem he had higher sights on taking over the world and that the Mormon church was the vehicle he planned on using to achieve that end. Anyways I was just curious if you are aware of anyone working on such a project? It would be interesting to see the Joseph Smith story put into an unbiased contextual and historical point of view, and if not, could you point me to anyone with experience in the film industry I could pitch this idea to? Much of what we have now concerning Joseph Smiths story comes directly from a biased Church.

Theological Discussions and Perspectives

but like I mentioned earlier I believe there is a deeper story that goes beyond the theological aspect. Thank you in advance and hope all is well.

Aaron Pennington 385 201-6314

Shawn! Thanks for your answer.Many churchleading people say "Israel was born in 1948 and then God called his people to come back,and if you dont believe that you have huge problems. Your comment on that?

By from Jens SWEDEN.

Futurist Views on the Destruction of the Earth

Shawn, Just watched your MEAT service from Sunday. You guys discussed how futurist think God is going to destroy the world with fire. Also, when Genesis states God will never destroy the earth again, that is in regards to water not fire according to futurist.

Well I belive this verse proves that theory incorrect. According to Gen 8, God is not destroying the earth EVER AGAIN:

Gen.8.21-22.ESV- And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease."

Did you catch that! While the earth remains -day, night, Seedtime and harvest, cold and heat SHALL NOT CEASE! Boom! Love it. Just thought I'd share that with you.

Jordan from Oceanside CA

Reconciliation and Salvation

Hello, Shawn,

Wow, I didn't realize until now the last time I received your reply.

(Update: my Mormon friend took "a year off" from "religion". On a humorous note, she started dating another guy, so she might have wanted some "free time" to just do whatever she wanted without the extreme guilt she was feeling while attending her local LDS church. Haha.)

I'm not sure if you remember me, hopefully the previous letters will jog your memory. (Janice's acquaintance from FB.)

I want to ask your further thoughts on something I just heard you mention in your YouTube vid debate with Matt Slick… and I do NOT inquire in a spirit of hostility at all. I agree with you much, much more than your fellow debater. You said something like: "God will reconcile all people to Himself in the end… but only a few will be saved. I wanna make that distinction."

What is the difference between Reconciliation and Saved in that regard? I don't believe in eternal torment for those who don't "pray the prayer for Jesus" before they die, but I still wonder if there will be those who truly don't want to be with God even after they die. I believe there will be many who aren't "Christians" in this life being in Heaven later.

Also, how come you believe only "a few" will be saved? That sounds like a small number overall, which sounds like the same old Fundamentalist belief in Salvation. I believe all will be judged on their beliefs and good works and heart and history. Justice and Mercy. And Christ's Love triumphs over all, though not overriding one's final decision for or against God.

Forgive me, if you clarified further in the video. I've had a rough year, and honestly I don't have much brainpower to be listening intently to intellectual debate for over two hours.

Sincerely, Conrad