Understanding the Trinity: A Conversation with Christianarchy
Welcome to Christianarchy Today with Sean, Ethan, and Steve, affectionately known as "The Boys," "Guys and Chairs," and "The Unholy Truth." Our discussion today revolves around a complex theological topic: the Trinity.
The Trinity: Setting the Stage
Our conversation kicks off with Sean, clarifying a few key positions he holds. There seems to be some confusion about his stance, with people labeling him a modalist. But as Sean humorously notes, "I can be, but that's not helpful." Clarifying further, he states his belief in a triune God and emphasizes the importance of allowing believers to hold their views without division.
"I personally do not agree with what's called creedal trinitarianism," Sean shares. "But if you're a creedal trinitarian, you're my brother. If you're a modalist, you're my brother. The primary thing is to discuss our beliefs openly and lovingly."
Delving Deeper: The Nature of God
Sean is asked whether he believes in a triune God — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — as one God. He clarifies, saying, "I believe in one God." The conversation reveals varying interpretations of the Trinity among the group.
Ethan adds his perspective, admitting, "I don't have a set defined view. I believe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up one God that has always existed." He acknowledges the mystery surrounding Jesus before His incarnation and is comfortable with the uncertainty.
The Fraction Analogy: A Misunderstood Interpretation
Ethan further explains his view using a fraction analogy, although he acknowledges it's not traditional trinitarianism. "I describe it like a fraction: there's one God with three equal parts that make up one God," he explains. Recalling a conversation with James White, who disagreed with this analogy, Ethan questions whether he misunderstood the concept.
Conclusion
In this rich dialogue, the nuances of trinitarian belief are explored. While disagreements arise, the conversation underscores the importance of understanding and accepting differing viewpoints within the unity of faith. As the discussion unfolds, it's clear that the exploration of the Trinity is both a personal and communal journey, inviting believers to delve deeper into the mystery of their faith.
Understanding the Trinity: A Complex Concept
The Trinity: A Mystery
Bart Ehrman suggests that understanding or explaining the Trinity as three separate beings and one god is baffling. You cannot fully comprehend it because it remains a mystery. The idea of one god and three separate beings becomes confusing, leading some to perceive three separate gods.
Perspectives from Personal Experience
Growing up in an evangelical church, I often heard the Trinity described in a way that sounded more like three separate gods with the same purpose. It's akin to us working together to create a show, each with a distinct role but sharing a common goal.
The Trinity in Popular Culture
When I was a kid, we watched "The Three Stooges," and the opening sequence where they greet each other always reminded me of the Trinity. The three individuals seemed to represent God, yet they were one entity in the show. This representation echoes the confusion surrounding the concept of the Trinity.
The Holy Spirit: A Separate Being?
The Holy Spirit is often viewed as a separate individual within the Trinity, which can feel strange in everyday life. When you ask the Holy Spirit for help, it's as if God and Jesus are observing from afar. Trinitarian doctrine states that the Holy Spirit possesses its own personality, desires, and will, making it seem like a separate "dude."
Hierarchy Within the Trinity
There's an unspoken hierarchy within the Trinity in our prayers. Jesus is approached for deep problems, the Holy Spirit for everyday issues, and God the Father only for life-or-death situations. This perceived hierarchy can feel blasphemous, especially for those taught otherwise.
Articulating the Trinity Teachings
Recalling my Sunday school days, the Trinity was often depicted as a triangle, with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at each point. This image symbolized the makeup of God, with God at the center. However, this depiction can lead to misunderstandings, as people often conflate "God" with "the Father," forgetting the co-equal nature of each part of the Trinity.
Co-Equal and Co-Eternal Aspects
The Trinity is described as co-eternal, uncreated, and co-equal. All parts are omniscient and omnipresent. Trying to explain what existed before the creation as recounted in Genesis remains a mystery, as we were created much later and cannot fathom the beginning.
Understanding Pre-Creation: A Trinitarian Perspective
Imagining the Scene Before Genesis
Have you ever wondered what you might see if you could look back to the very beginning, before Genesis even began? Imagine having the ability to envision the heavens before anything was created. What would you see?
Since God is eternal, with spiritual eyes, what would you actually see? While it's challenging to comprehend, let's explore this concept through the lens of Trinitarianism.
The Trinitarian Viewpoint
It's intriguing to consider the Trinitarian perspective. If we look to John 1:1, it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." But what does that look like? It's difficult to grasp, and even Trinitarians might not fully understand. Some might claim they do, but it's a complex notion. It's quite presumptuous to assert comprehensive knowledge of the beginning.
Though we know God was there, the role of Jesus and the Holy Spirit can spark interesting questions. The spirit of Christ was present, as indicated by God saying, "Let us make man in our own image," reflecting the presence of more than one entity.
Personal Interpretations of the Trinity
When considering one's personal perception of the Trinity, different people visualize it differently. During my Trinitarian studies, I imagined it as a collective fire with three separate flames: Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. They were all part of the same fire yet distinct.
In reflection, I now see it as one large fire, all together. Would you say the fire named Jesus was always called Jesus? In my understanding, yes, He was Jesus from the beginning, though this view presents challenges. Some people visualize God with a beard, Jesus with long hair, and the Spirit as an ethereal light or fog.
The Eternal Debate
Trinitarian beliefs assert that if we could look back to the beginning, we would see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as co-eternal, self-existent, uncreated, and equal. However, I personally reject this idea.
Instead, I align more with the Jewish belief— "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one." This monotheistic view is something we will delve into further next week. I reject the notion of God being a fire or any physical form. Despite this, I do believe in the existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Understanding the Nature of Jesus and the Trinity
The Nature of God and Jesus
Do I believe Jesus was God with us? Of course. Do I believe the Holy Spirit is God with us? Yes, I do. All these things I'm fine with. The key question is about what it looked like prior to the creation in the heavens. I say there was one God. That God spoke things into existence. Even without lips or vocal cords, God's words became flesh and dwelt among us in the man, Jesus Christ. There was no Jesus prior because that was a name given to him on earth. Before, he was called the Word. That's the best understanding we've got.
Perspectives on the Pre-Existent Trinity
Some say, if there is a separate fire, even in that sense, one fire would not be called Jesus. Trinitarians ask why Jesus spoke of having glory with God before coming to earth and getting that glory again. The answer is because he is God's Word. I'm just following what the scripture says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. There are those who describe the pre-existent trinity of "hello, hello, hello," but this is not about forming a position; it's more of an inquisition. This understanding makes far more sense than how the creeds describe it, according to those who teach it. They might see it similar to how we understand it, yet they describe it as the Trinity.
Common Misunderstandings
Most people listening might be thinking about the confusion I was discussing earlier. James White, an apologist, admits that most Christians don't know what the Trinity is. They often explain it in a modalist way. Interestingly, I've always leaned towards the position you just mentioned. Many people do. When the Trinity is discussed, I'm like, wait, this is the Trinity. I see it as God being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is what I read in scripture. I had no idea I had to delve into the actual eternal existence and consider Jesus as Jesus before he was born as Jesus. It wasn't until a few months ago that I realized I needed to reconsider this understanding.
Reconciling Jesus Praying on Earth
I remember a question from someone, probably a Mormon, about the Trinity. They asked, if Jesus was on earth praying, was he talking to himself? Why would he pray if it's all God? They argue he's talking to himself. The typical Trinity response is that he was praying to his Father because there are three entities. But if he's God, is he praying to God? Yes, but this confuses people. The LDS think they've captured some contradiction. If God's words became flesh and that flesh wasn't God, this makes sense. His flesh could die and be tempted—things God cannot experience. Thus, his flesh was praying to his Father. It makes sense from this perspective, but not necessarily in the traditional Trinity explanation, which seems like he's talking to himself. That's why some see this as a clever argument.
Researching Theological Contexts
I don't know if this helps, and maybe I'm overthinking it, but I remember researching hell. I came across Bart Ehrman's discussion on NPR, which echoed things I've heard before about how Jews prior to…
Understanding Modalism and the Concept of the Trinity
The New Testament Concept of the Soul
In the New Testament, they believed that the soul was essentially your words or your breath. There wasn't an actual soul as we think of it today. Instead of what a Trinitarian would say—that the Word is a distinct person—the words of God became flesh. That's a different approach to understanding this concept.
A Modalist Perspective
For that reason, I'm considered a modalist. What they say I'm asserting is that the one fiery God became the Son, and the one fiery God became the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, and the Father is God. This perspective aligns with a form of modalism. However, don't some modalists think that God was switching back and forth? That's a misunderstanding because that's how I was taught modalism, and it would not make any sense. That's actually a different belief, which I don't agree with.
When I'm labeled a modalist, people should understand the nuance. Ehrman points out that it was John's Gospel that brings forth this idea with its statement "in the beginning was the Word," whereas the synoptic gospels—Mark, Matthew, and Luke—teach a different idea about Jesus. It was unique to John's account.
Questioning the Trinity's Importance
Let's consider this: If the Trinity is so vitally important, why doesn't God call Himself a Trinity in the Scripture? It's because it's a man-made idea, so it's not vitally important. That's what Steve says, and I agree with him. There’s more light-hearted banter because my mom has a rolling pin ready as if to challenge this idea. But the real issue is when people make it a doctrine that must be adhered to. At the end of the day, it’s a human attempt to articulate God’s makeup as described in the Bible, and I think their portrayal isn’t correct.
Challenges with Dogma
So, can we agree at least theoretically that their assessment might be incorrect or unaware of the entirety? Even if they’re partly wrong, the certainty isn't there, and the impact is negligible. People often make such issues into monumental concerns and sever relationships over them, which I'm personally battling against.
Why do they do this? I don’t understand either. I recall watching the Inquisition and being amicable with Rob Cevolka, only for them to say I’m not a brother in Christ and threaten eternal damnation. Really? Even if I were a full Trinitarian, I wouldn't judge like that because it’s Christ's blood that saves us, not doctrinal correctness.
A Call for Critical Thinking
Christianity should be about critical thinking. We need to consider that the concept of the Trinity isn't in the Bible, so it's not mandatory for acceptance. How can you claim someone’s eternal damnation based on a man-made doctrine? Isn't that zealotry? That's what we're combating here—misunderstanding and assumption. When people hear us debate the Trinity, some immediately label us heretics, as if the conventional belief is the only way.
Understanding the Necessity of the Trinity
For a long time, the concept of the Trinity has been a topic of intense discussion and sometimes, contention. Some believe the Trinity is critical to understanding and embracing Christian faith, while others have differing views. In this post, we explore whether it is essential to embrace the Trinity to be truly saved.
Do We Need to Embrace the Trinity for Salvation?
A common argument from figures like James White is that if you do not recognize Jesus as part of the Trinity, you risk placing your faith in the "wrong Jesus" — a Jesus not aligned with the biblical depiction as the eternal, uncreated, co-equal, and co-eternal Son of God. This raises profound questions concerning people who have never heard Jesus’s name or learned about Him through the Bible. Can they still connect with God?
The Role of Christ’s Blood
The Bible clearly emphasizes that Christ's blood is what saves humanity, and this is the core of His identity that matters most. While debates about doctrine are valuable for theological discussion, they do not impact the essential truth that "Christ saved the world through his blood, and that is it, final."
Some challenge the divinity argument by questioning how Jesus's blood could save if He wasn’t part of a divine Trinity. Critics argue that placing faith in anyone other than the Jesus depicted in the Trinity leads one astray. However, it is crucial to clarify that at no point was it implied that Jesus was anything other than God.
Is It a Different Jesus?
The claim that belief in the Trinity defines whether one follows the "right Jesus" is contested. We never stated that Jesus wasn't God — merely that His initial earthly form differed from His current exalted status. There's an ongoing debate about the significance of Jesus's identity as part of a Trinitarian God and how it impacts salvation.
Conclusion
These discussions are intended to provoke thought and reflection, encouraging deeper understanding. While we’ll explore the Trinity further in an upcoming post, it’s worth noting that other significant questions remain: What color is God? What does Heaven look like? What happens after we die? These questions, like the distinctions in the Trinity, hold importance in understanding and faith.
We invite you to contemplate these topics, acknowledging that not having all the answers does not diminish one's faith journey. Stay tuned for part two of our exploration of the Trinity next week.
