Heart of the Matter

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah
This is heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

And I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion. your host.

Show 36 462
September 8th 2015
The Keystone

Upcoming Events

Well folks, we're still here. I realized that for some, this month is just the beginning of the end, and for many the end is not going to hit until September 23rd. But for others, this whole month is supposed to be the beginning of the end. But we are still here. And while we’re here we have some very exciting things happening in the realm of reason.

This Friday from 7-9 Don K. Preston will be with us to educate and answer questions on end times. Please join us to learn what the Bible really says. Come and ask your tough stuff of Him. It’s your chance. Then on Saturday morning brother Don will hit us up with another dose of reality and give us another opportunity to ask more questions.

But on Thursday of last week Don called and let me know of another development. Pastor Jason Wallace, a local Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who you may recognize as he has been with us on the show, well Pastor Jason has challenged Preston to a debate and that will happen on Saturday Night at the University of Utah from 6-9pm. This is THREE opportunities at three different times to seek the truth, to test all things, and to hold fast to what is good.

God seeks those who want to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. He does NOT seek those who are afraid. He does NOT seek those who want to harbor prejudices that feed their needs and egos and pet doctrines. He Seeks those who want to worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH – be one of them.

I specifically challenge all Calvary Chapel Pastors and congregates to attend one or all of these events. I challenge every person who is waiting for Jesus to come and save them. I challenge every Latter-day Saint who accepts the LDS view of end times. Let’s once and for all put this beast to bed so we can, once and for all, come to a unity of the Faith. And we’re going to begin with Dr. Don K Preston helping us understand when the Bible says Jesus would return.

So again – this

Friday, September 11th 7-9 PM
Saturday, September 12th 9-11 AM
And then Saturday Night, at the U of U, from 6-9 PM.

Tell your friends. Invite your pastors. Oh, and tune in because we are going to be streaming the Friday and Saturday morning events.

Reflection on Colossians

And with that, how about a moment from the Word. We’re going through the New Testament and looking for verses that support the idea of Subjective ChristianityA direct, personal relationship with God—free from institutional authority, guided by personal relationship, faith and agape love., which not only places the onus for our faith, walk, and practice in our hands, but calls for peace and unity among believers.

Tonight we are in the book of Colossians.

Christ in You, the Hope of Glory

Colossians 1:27 “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Who makes known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles? God.

In Colossians 2:1-2 Paul opens saying:

“For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; that . . . (that what?)

“that their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.”

Our hearts can only be knit together in love when we let doctrinal differences die, folks. At least die to division over them.

Colossians 2:4-10 ”And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the …

Reflections on Faith Practices

Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”

Colossians 2:16-23
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.”

Seek Higher Things

Colossians 3:1-3
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

Put on Virtues

Colossians 3:12
“Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”

Colossians 3:23
“And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men.”

And with that how about a word of prayer . . . tonight given by __________________

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

Do you know what we’ve done? Can you see it yet? Has it become apparent? I ask, “do you know what we’ve done but the best way to put it is, “Can you see what God has done?”

We started with Mormonism. We plainly said, amidst all of our attacks on the faith the following:

• That there are LDS people who are better Christians than we ever hoped to be.
• That if people wanted to remain LDS they could – (knowing it would be a rarity once they knew the truth but still a possibility).
• And that we our purpose was to get LDS people to know Jesus through Spiritual Rebirth.

Then we spent years ripping the heck out of all that was unacceptable in the faith based on the institution, its history, and its practice. But we maintained those first three points throughout.

Were you aware of this? Do you remember this? Evangelical leaders remember it because behind the scenes they hated our approach but they stayed quiet we were driving people to their churches.

There was a lot to go after Mormonism about. But this Ministry has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS maintained that . . .

• That there are LDS people who are better Christians than we ever hoped to be.
• That if people wanted to remain LDS they could, and that
• we just wanted to know if the LDS people had been born again by faith in Christ Jesus.

Then we turned our gun and pointed it at the Evangelicals. And we applied the very same thinking.

Certainly there were great evangelical believers who were name it and claim it, certainly there were great Christians who rocked out at concerts, and even those who never read or heard the Bible.

And as we did with the LDS, we admitted that such people could remain in these places and be good Christians, but we ripped into these things like no other too.

We challenged the biblical stance of prosperity teachings,

Examining The Subjectivity of Christianity

of “bigger is better mentalities,” feigned healings, Jesus concerts and the Christian music business, etc. Then we moved into bigger issues – and took a sword to some really sacred cows wandering ore the hills of historic Christianity. We touched on Calvinism, Arminianism. We hit the Trinity. We talked about eternal punishment, we talked about eschatologyStudy of “last things”—TGNN teaches all biblical eschatology was fulfilled in 70 A.D. More. Then we moved into sola scriptura, examining the place and purpose of the Bible. I mean we took a baseball bat and swung at anything and everything that believers use to define themselves and divide over and I think we did a fairly good job of proving that GOD – GOD has, by virtue of the variableness in all of these things, given a lot of lee-way in what defines a believer, and what defines true orthodoxy, and what the faith is actually built upon.

In the end all of these factors (and the different takes on them) prove that Christianity is not objectively packaged up and decided upon by self-appointed policy cops or doctors of theology but is completely subjective. God was able to effectively do this because nobody was able, in the face of our stance to refute the biblical evidence. Now I know those who differ with us are probably screaming right now, “What is this guy talking about?”

Disputing Traditional Views

Firstly, nobody can provide us with biblical passages that support the idea that the New Testament was written to believers today. Secondly, nobody can show that it was the New Testament that guided those who believed on Jesus between 70 AD and 1550. Thirdly, nobody can refute the New Testament language that tells us that God has written His laws upon the hearts of believers. Fourth, nobody can set forth a body of doctrines that all believers agree upon proving doctrines do not save but faith. Fifth, nobody can produce a brick and mortar institution that has not been corrupted, proving that Christianity does not living in corruptible institutions but by the Spirit in cleansed hearts. Sixth, nobody can produce a Church that governs perfectly or according to the New Testament model because the best and most devout models differ! Again proving that the faith is subjective.

And finally, for those who STILL claim the New Testament provides us with the model on how to govern and operate in brick and mortar churches I need to see one that does everything according to the book – everything – because if they fail in one point they are failing to doing church God’s way.

(beat)

The Purpose of This Ministry

And so I present to you passages which perfectly describe the purpose of this ministry – the purposes that have ALWAYS existed. ARE YOU READY to HEAR them? We don’t just recite them, we mean them in every sense of the WORD. Looking at anyone and everyone in this world who professes Christ Jesus (Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Bahai, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Orthodox Presbyterians, Calvinists, Methodists, Lutherans, – you name it – we read the following and assign it to them:

Ephesians 4:11 And he (God) gave some, apostles (in Jesus day); and some, prophets (in the Old Testament); and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For (why has He given them) the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all come

• in the unity of the faith,
• and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• unto a perfect man,
• unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(verse 14) That we henceforth be no more children (babes in Christ fighting and striving over things), tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. to these divisions) 15 But (however, instead) speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body (all believers from every approach) fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part (coming together in love and in the way we were made to perform), maketh increase of the body (becomes highly effective and productive) unto the edifying of itself in love. (in what? Not in doctrine, not in approach, not in practice of rituals but in LOVE in LOVE in LOVE.

Listen – the Catholics – who have had millions of

Institutional Failures in Faith Unity

People who love the Lord Jesus have had their shot at institutionalizing things and have failed. The Protestant Reformation, with all of the millions within its ranks who have loved Jesus, has failed. The Restorationists, like the Church of Christ and Mormonism, who too have had many who love Jesus from the heart, have failed too. And all of these, plus many more, continue to exist, but they have not come to a unity of the faith… of the faith… of the faith in Jesus Christ, but have allowed themselves to believe that they represent the whole Body of Christ to the exclusion of all the others.

It’s just not true. And it will never ever be true as long as any institution or individual believes that their views or practices are perfect, and all who differ with them are wrong. For the Body to become “a unity of the faith,” and therefore stronger, for the body to be a place where our children will want to come and be a part of in the future, all believers everywhere have to “agree to disagree,” “allow people to subjectively pursue God through Christ,” and begin to love for all.

Listen—everything God has used and allowed has worked to bring us to where we are. Can’t we look with love and appreciation on these things and use them to come to a unity of the faith today?

Religious Contributions to Unity

Judaism did its part—bringing us the oracles of God and the Messiah Himself! Praise God. And in their contribution, we see how to avoid rebellion and focusing on the Law to make ourselves right before Him. The Apostolic Church gave us a fantastic model of what it means to walk the walk in faith and love until the end. To suffer, share, and seek—but it also taught us the need to avoid division and strife.

Catholicism has given us a wonderful heritage of ritual and rites, showing us the beauty of remembering God through such things. But at the same time, Catholicism has illustrated for us many of the dangers of top-down authority, of what happens when we allow faith and state to mix, and of men making themselves priests.

The Protestant Journey

Protestants, in all of its forms, gave the world a shot in the arm of grace and highlighted for the Body the importance of the Word and faith. But at the same time, Protestantism showed us firsthand how scripture is not for private interpretation, that doctrine divides, and that there is absolutely no set model provided us in the New Testament.

Mormonism (and some of the lesser-known Restorationist faiths) took us to the other end of the spectrum and showed us the value of clean living, and the value to order and wise financial management, but at the same time, they proved how quickly we will go astray without a firm grip on Him and His Word being taught. In all of the examples I just gave, the negatives were produced by the institutions themselves. But the salt of the earth believers from every faith who love God through Christ have all made up the real Body of Believers over the past 2000 years.

(beat)

“Until we all come to a unity of the faith.”

With the unity being, “Jesus is Lord and Savior.” With the unity being manifested and held together by love. The only way we can come to this, the only way we will survive against the ways of this godless, mocking Jesus' world, will be when we allow others the right to worship God and pursue Jesus as they see fit, acknowledging that what they choose to do, be, and believe is between them and the Spirit, and that every man is accountable to God for the path he pursues.

Striving for Unity

Until individuals, in the cause and name of love for the King, are willing to die to denominational prejudices and let God, by His Spirit, manage the rest, we will forever be at odds with one another, and a kingdom divided cannot stand.

I certainly have my opinions on matters—you have heard them. And most of you differ with most of them. That is your choice, and it is my choice to see things the way I see them. But I will forever defend not only my right to see and…

Unity of Faith

Believe the way I see and believe, but I ardently support every other person's right to do the same, and to then treat them with love, and in the cases where “Jesus” is admitted to the conversation, to treat them as my brothers and sisters as well.

Show me a Latter-day Saint who claims Jesus is their Lord and Savior and I will show you my brother or sister in Him – not in man-made religion, but in Him. Show me a Catholic who claims Jesus as Lord and Savior and I will show you my brother and sister in Him – not in Catholicism, but in Him, in His body.

Show me a “charismatic,” a “name it and claim it,” a “cessasionalist,” a “Trinitarian,” a “Oneness Pentecostal,” a “Seventh-day Adventist,” a “Jehovah’s Witness,” a “suit and tie bearing southern Baptist,” a collar-wearing cropped-haired lesbo Episcopalian pastor who all claim Jesus as Lord and Savior and I will show you people I accept as my brother or sister and people I will let God Himself judge for their walk and views.

The Role of Love

“Till we all come to a unity of the faith.” Doctrine cannot divide us. Divisions cannot reign. We have to come to a unity of the faith – of the faith – NOT a unity of the doctrine, but of the place our faith reigns – and we then let God, by His Spirit, manage where everyone else stands.

It’s Jesus Church. We can’t police the hearts of others nor war against flesh and blood. That is the realm Satan wants us in. Strife and division. But we beat him and his ways to a pulp in and through love in Jesus name.

And to take it out a step further, while I would not include those who exclude Jesus from their hearts as by family, or brothers or sisters, I will love them – as they are and always. I will accept them (where they are) in love trusting that God will through His Spirit reach them and pray that He will use us to do it.

Am I teaching that all ways and beliefs are acceptable to God? Not in the least. Am I saying that we can teach whatever we want and consider it as good as everything else? Of course not. We work very, very hard to teach the Bible verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. and with as much truth as we can discover. Clear truths of God make clear minds and hearts of those who seek Him.

But we make mistakes. We teach error. As do ALL other groups. With this being the fact the ONLY way to come to a unity of the faith is to accept this, peacefully exchange ideas, but LOVE unconditionally along the way. No exceptions. And no matter what.

Faith and Responsibility

Whomever believes in their hearts and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord has every right to pursue Him as they see fit because in the end we are all responsible for what we allowed ourselves to believe.

It’s time, friends. It’s time to come to a unity of the faith. I know it’s scary. And to even broach the subject means having to learn to listen more than we talk, and to put up with people who embrace and believe things that are absolutely foolish to our way of thinking.

But as we let selfless, self-effacing, Jesus focused, love reign, these divisionary matters will fade. And as they do, Jesus will more and more make Himself known in the gap.

(beat)

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

While the operators are clearing your calls let’s consider the following:

NEW SPOT?

A REALLY GOOD EMAIL FROM ADAM

Hi Shawn!

I didn't hear anything back, so I'm guessing it was just a little too wordy. I REALLY want to understand this, because I think you might have something here. If I seem like I'm lashing out, it's because I only settle things in my mind by asking the toughest questions I can fathom, and seeing how they can be answered by someone who thinks differently than I do. Let me start with something basic; a breakdown question of the previous email: IF we are free to believe our own interpretation of God's word by virtue of His spirit in us (automatic when we claim faith in Him) then that means none of these details matter, right? But we CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT, RIGHT? The

Diversity of Interpretations

Calvinist believes that the Arminian is incorrect, and vice versa. What if the diversity of interpretations of God's word is NOT a sign that Christianity is subjective, but instead that TONS of people do not really have the Holy Spirit in them, and are therefore misguided? Many who say "Lord, Lord"- even those who perform miracles- are supposedly NOT really saved, according to Scripture, right? Do you know how badly I would love to believe that every Christian is a brother? I hate divisions based on petty things, but I also know that there are SOME things worth dividing over- I just want to make sure I know which is which. Thanks!

Adam

Personal Journey and Revelation

From: Angela

Subject: "WOW" moments

Message Body:

Shawn:

I am a Christian living in Texas. I came to your ministry through an answered prayer after asking the Lord how to witness to a Mormon nurse that just got hired at the hospital where I work. She is fairly new to Mormonism and lamented that she doesn't like the people in her new Ward and she was still praying (doubtful) about taking the endowment ceremony. Before watching your ministry I was arrogant and full of myself and I didn't have a clue how to talk to her.

I have been a born again Christian for many years, but I had become jaded and arrogant towards organized religion. I was raised Baptist, but left the church after they started leaning heavily towards Calvinism and some taught that Jesus turned water into grape juice vs. wine because they didn't want the congregation to drink alcohol. For the longest time I didn't realize that I was becoming as hateful and arrogant as the people whose views I opposed. I prayed to God that I would find a church where I could fit in. Needless to say because of my arrogance he didn't answer me right away. I also had a pretty tainted view of Mormonism. In the 1980's I had read the book "The god makers" and afterwards I was shocked and appalled. I thought Mormons were heretics and I treated all of them like lepers. How ashamed I am now to admit this.

For the last 48 hours I have been glued to the computer watching episodes on your website. The "WOW" moment came when I watched the guest speaker, the young ex-Mormon doctor, who explained mind control and BITE. Weeks earlier I had been searching the internet for answers after watching the scientology movie "Going Clear" and I just couldn't understand how intelligent people could get sucked into something like that. A self admitted introvert I always thought "love bombing" was a big turn off and so the need for acceptance into an organization never appealed to me. I also couldn't understand how people could believe lies and not research their organizations. I didn't realize they were trapped. I arrogantly believed that people that got sucked into mind control groups were reaping what they sowed. Again, I am ashamed of my arrogance. You preached from the Lord that love of others was a mandate from God, but I didn't/couldn't understand what that Love meant until now. The WOW moment came when I quit hating and began truly loving others again. I have not yet had the chance to talk to the LDS nurse about the true Lord Jesus Christ, but I think now I am ready it the Lord leads me. I will pray that the Lord gives me an opportunity to witness to her in love and opens her heart and mind.

So here I am today.

Preterism and Eschatology Questions

Hi Shawn,

First of all.. PRAISE GOD for His ministry through you!

Just some things I'm not sure about.. The preterist view is new to me.. I've watched your 'Has Jesus Returned series' and also listened to Don K prestons 9 episodes on 'who is this Babylon' found on his podcast. It all makes sense to me.. These are the questions I'm struggling to answer.

Why does Paul teach & preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles prior to ad70 if the law was still in effect until all things were fulfilled in ad70? Does this mean that anyone who holds to the dispensationalist/milleniest or futurist view should really be abiding by Torah because they don't believe all things have been fulfilled?

I always believed that the cross (other than the greatest gift of my sins being paid for) brought an end to the law, I heard Don K Preston say on his podcast that this isn't true. So what purpose does the cross hold for the preterist? Am I misrepresenting the preterist view or am I misunderstanding?

Questions About Scripture and Religious Concepts

scripture?

In relation to Joseph's myths evolved first vision.. His final vision is very much similar to Stephens in that He saw Jesus standing beside God. I've listened to your 'God' series (which was challenging but rewarding) and would like to know your take on Jesus & God the father being side by side? One more question.. Matthew tells us that zacharias walked perfectly in the law of God.. I'm struggling to understand how this would be possible. I sent a couple of these questions to Mr Don Preston but I haven't heard back. I'm assuming he's been very busy. I can't wait to hear him speak on your show this week!

One more thing.. For the very FIRST time ever.. I feel drawn to donate to a ministry.. I emailed you about a year ago telling you how our pastor sometimes spends more time talking about tithes than he does preaching the word (which is usually out of context & usually about 'God wants you to prosper & make more money) is there an account I can deposit an offering into that would directly support the HOTM ministry? I can't afford to be on a set amount every week but I would love to donate what I can when I can. I don't think it would be much considering the aussie$ is far less than the US but I really want to help. Thank you again Shawn, I admire your heart to seek truth at all costs!

Praise God!

Futi Anesone

Reflections on Deconstruction and Spiritual Journeys

Hi Shawn, great show about the de-construction subject. You continue to teach great lessons and I am always surprised at how you seem to "hit the nail on the head" with your thoughts and information. I absolutely can related to knowing about the "cracks" that are found in religion and have always felt that same feeling when I was younger, and as I search for a place to lay my spiritual head. I have not found a church I care to be associated with, so far, but can tell you that watching and listening to you, is what I keep coming back to with enthusiasm.

Gnostic Knowledge and Preterism

I think the guy that called and asked about the "gnostic" stuff that is going on, has some merit only in that the word means "knowledge", and the earliest Christians claimed to have "special", or "secret" knowledge that Jesus taught just to them and not the general public. I have been studying this subject, and I find some of the gospels that have been discovered, very interesting when added to the ideal of preterismThe belief that all biblical prophecy—especially “end times”—was fulfilled by 70 A.D. More and the diversity of being allowed different ways of seeing what Jesus taught. Lots of freedom to believe what He wants you to know, and having a personal relationship with Him without having to conform to just one religious way of thinking. That works for me and seems like it does for you too. Keep up the great work, we are with you in spirit, faith, and truth.

Wish I could be there for the Don Preston show, but will be tuning in. Also, REALLY wish I could come to the party on Oct. 2, but rest assured, I will be with you in SPIRITS, if you know what I mean. Cheers, and God bless you!

Personal Experiences and Church Support

Hi Shawn,

I doubt I'm actually writing to Shawn but I was hoping you could answer something for me. I grew up in the church, baptized at 8. Never paid any tithing as I never had a job as a teenager and stopped going to church at 18. I didn't stop going because I don't believe or anything like that.. I just went away to college and became disinterested.

Anyway, here’s my question. From watching a lot of your videos you claim the Mormon church is all lies with underlying motives and money hungry people. Well when I was 27, after 9 years of not going to church, not paying one tithe.. I was laid off from work. (I live in the Detroit area so the economy is up and down) When my saved money ran out I was going to lose everything. I ended up walking into my old ward building and asked to speak to the Bishop. It was a man I never met so you can't say he did it because he knows me from the past. But they literally paid every bill, from the electricity to the gas bill. From my mortgage payments and taxes to my car payments (2 cars). They even filled my fridge. They did all this for 15, that's right FIFTEEN MONTHS. The whole time they did this I never went to church, I wasn't working so didn't pay any tithe. And after I got a new job I

Examining Acts of Kindness

Just let them know I didn't need there help anymore. 2 years later and still no missionaries at my door, (they know where I live they had all my bills) no one has even called me asking me to come to church.

So here's my question, to me, this seems like a complete act of just genuine kindness and Christ like charity. What do you think there underlying motive could possibly be to give me almost $2000 worth of charity a month for 15 months and never once try to get me back to church or pay them back in anyway?

Seeking Understanding

I'd appreciate a response.

Reflection by Spencer Adams