Heart of the Matter Broadcast

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Very Special Show Tonight – lots to do, lots to talk about as we have a special guest present with us, Brother Matt Slick founder of CARM and a host of a radio program heard throughout Utah and Idaho on The Truth 820. Before we get to it let’s open with a prayer and then a song led by brother Alex Pollock.

Brother Alex: PRAYER AND SONG

Insights on Christian Love

Show 20 497 Two Hour Matt Slick Special
May 17th, 2016
Introduction to the evening with Matt by Shawn:

(Thank you Alex)

Sitting here with me is a man – a brother in the Lord – who resides theologically in places I have long abandoned. This man is no slouch when it comes to scripture and understands them very well – especially from his particular points of view. What I love about Matt is that in the world of orthodox zealotry he, in my opinion, thrives in areas more reasonable.

(EXAMPLE OF the Continuum)
X—————-/s / | m ——————X

Now I personally concluded a few years ago that the Body Christian has in many ways misinterpreted and misapplied the Word, and that we have become a nation of scribes not known by our love but by our doctrinal positions. How does scripture, in fact, better put, what does Jesus say the way His followers would be known? (beat)

The True Mark of Christians

So we admit that the Holy Spirit is what converts the sinner's heart to Christ – nothing that we do – and by grace, so once this has happened by God, by grace, how are Christians TRULY known? By their love, right? (beat) By a love as defined by 1st Corinthians 13, which says those who possess this love will: suffereth long, be kind, not envy, not promote itself, not be proud, will not behave unseemly, will not seek its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil; Rejoices not in iniquity, Rejoiceth in the truth; (LISTEN) THIS LOVE BY WHICH WE ARE KNOWN . . . bears ALL things, believes ALL things, hopes ALL things, endures ALL things, and it never fails. (long beat) And the fruits of the Spirit of this love are THEN Joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

In all of this, I see nothing about being known by our doctrine. By our particular beliefs or views. Oh, I understand the importance of each individual believer dividing the word of God but we are NEVER, EVER going to come to a unity of the faith by or through our apparent opinions or knowledge or wisdom. A unity of the faith can and will ONLY come when love abides over ALL things – and when doctrinal stances, unlike Rosa Parks, will take a seat at the back of the bus.

From what I can tell (and if I am wrong please forgive and correct me) but from what I can tell my brother has a ministry that is based on sharing what he believes are correct, orthodox and objective doctrines and theologies. Our ministry today is based on showing – even proving – that this beautiful religion of God through Christ is not doctrinal nor orthodox nor objective, but entirely subjective, by the Spirit, and manifested best through the love of its adherents.

A Dialogue on Faith

So what we are going to do is have Matt present some opening statements that will set the stage for his position as a Christian. He will have around ten minutes or so to speak. I’ll then take the stand for ten minutes and explain myself and why I see the faith as I see it.

We will then sit down together and try and slush through some specific issues together – mostly with my asking Matt some questions about orthodoxy and my refusal to embrace some of it. I want to thank Nathan in setting this up between Matt and I, for Matt taking the time out of his busy schedule to spend some time with us and of course to all of our volunteers and staff and viewers who keep us going. We encourage you to call or write in with specific questions which we will try and get to in the next couple of hours.

Brother Matt.

Ten Minutes for Matt to articulate his views/philosophy/general stance for orthodoxy. Then . . . ten Minutes for Shawn to do the same. (HERE)

As I said, my brother Matt and I see things very differently relative to a number of elements, teachings, doctrines, in the Christian faith. Tonight

Misappropriation of the Bible

I want to lay something out on the white board something that might serve as a starting point for Matt and I to talk one with another. Prior to so doing, I want to reiterate that I am convinced that modern Christianity has misappropriated the Bible and assigned to it power and authority that was never intended to have from the start of the faith and which I believe is proven by the fact that the Bible (and its content) which we hold in our hands today:

• Was not written to people today in its most literal material sense – (and nowhere does it say that it was).
• That it was not available to the early church for the first two hundred and fifty years of the church history and then it was available in an extremely limited way.
• That its contents were not officially decided upon until the 16th Century no matter what defenders try and say.
• That it was not readable by the masses due to literacy rates and then until Guttenberg (and other translations) brought the word to the people.
• That in the face of all of this the Bible, if you listen to Christian orthodoxy today, which is supposed to be the guiding light to the faith, was never meant to be a manual on how to “do church” but ought to be seen as a beautiful map for each individual believer to read and appeal to in their personal search to know the true and living God.

The Role of the Spirit and the Bible

As a result of this we maintain that in the faith called Christian the following: that

• The Spirit is primary and preferential in the Christians life,
• The Bible is secondary and referential, (it is CERTAINLY taught, and discussed and read but with the understanding that we see through a glass darkly and we will never agree on its contents)
• That Church history is tertiary and inferential, and that
• modern material religionA fulfilled system of temples, rituals, and laws—replaced by direct spiritual relationship. is actually unnecessary and inconsequential.

We endorse the idea that the Church is (and has been since Pentecost) lead by the Spirit (which is the Spirit of Christ) and all the religious rigmarole we force upon each other – doctrine and practice included – is utterly and completely unnecessary.

Ideas, Beliefs, and Knowledge

(TO THE BOARD)

But what I’d really like to share with you all (and to use as a basis when Matt and I talk) on is the differences between ideas, beliefs and doubts, knowledge and truth. Let me give you an example on the white board.

Ideas
Beliefs/Doubts
Knowledge
Truth

I wonder if . . .
I believe / I don’t believe . . .
Based on facts I know that . . .
There is no question . . .
EXAMPLE
Marriage of Jesus
I wonder if Jesus . . .
I believe/don’t believe that Jesus . . .
I know that Jesus was OR was not . . .
Here is the truth – absolute, no questions asked:

Jesus was OR
Jesus was NOT . . .

Within Christianity thoughts and ideas are often rejected out of hand based on traditions, interpretations of the written Word, and policies. When institutions have established themselves on a foundation of rules and orders and statements of faith ideas to a great extent must be quashed because they challenge the established order of things upon which the institution was built. Beliefs and Doubts are our responses to ideas or postulations. People either accept these ideas (believe them) or they don’t (doubt them). Beliefs and or doubts are not founded on absolute knowledge or possessing the complete truth of a matter. They often exist more as a result of partial knowledge or truth or due to the wants and desires of an individual (for safety,

Human Knowledge and The Nature of Truth

We often believe what we have been taught, what works for us, what allows us to function and we are frequently very resistant to altering our beliefs and doubts because to do so causes discomfort, upheaval, and a disconnect from what we have long relied upon to give us meaning and peace and hope. For human beings and in most cases, knowing and knowledge is incomplete and based on information and experiences that are to some extent or another limited in scope or depth. “We know in part.” As a result, our human knowing is typically based solely on the informational sources available and the experiences lived or understood. A person can know that their car is red and this would be a reliable statement of fact. But would the car be red to the colorblind or would it still be red if it was under a Jupiter moon? In this way, we can see that human knowledge, while reliable to a certain extent to get through everyday life, cannot generally be seen as absolute. We claim to know a spouse. But even in the case of people married fifty years there can, due to the nature of change and life, exist issues that remain obscured or unknown – especially under extenuating circumstances. We conclude that where knowledge can be described in the human realm as certain in most cases this definition is circumstantially assigned and the knowledge we claim here and now may not hold true later.

Truth and Its Immutable Nature

Truth is what it is. It is not relative. It is not uncertain. Truth is always truth and unlike belief or doubts or even limited knowledge, truth is absolutely set in concrete and is undisputed by opinion, ideas, or limited access to information and circumstance. It is His and He is not only the author of it, He is Truth itself. To know Him is to know Truth – but it comes incrementally and until it is fully present it remains somewhere in between the realms of ideas, beliefs, doubts, and knowledge. Sometimes human beings tap into His truth. Like real knowledge, His truths are unalterable. They are what they are but it is very difficult to articulate them one to another without error creeping in and altering them to some extent and making them partial truths, errors, and in the end outright lies.

Personal Ideas, Beliefs, and Knowing

Ideas

“I wonder”

Beliefs (or Doubts)

“I believe/I don’t believe”

Knowing (based on facts)

“I know/I don’t know”

Truth

This is the “Absolute Truth”

Eternal Punishment/Total Reconciliation

                        (X

X)

EschatologyStudy of “last things”—TGNN teaches all biblical eschatology was fulfilled in 70 A.D. More / Jesus Second ComingChrist’s return, fulfilled in 70 A.D., ending the old covenant—not the world.

                        (X

X)

The Trinity

                (X)

Sola Scriptura

                 (X)

Objective Faith vs Subjective Faith

                        (X)

The Holy Spirit is Spirit of God / Spirit of Christ

                (X)

World Wide Flood

     (X)

New / Old Earth

                     (X)

“Saved by Grace through Faith to Love by Suffering as Christ according to the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God”

                        (X)

(X)
Jesus

Understanding Religious Beliefs and Truth

Most people take their ideas and beliefs, claim to know them and then state emphatically that they are truth, that they have the truth and that anyone who differs with them are not in the truth. The fact of the matter is most people are pushing either their ideas, beliefs or limited knowledge off as absolute truth. It’s simply not the case. Now, as a Pastor/Teacher I teach as truth Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life. And I must admit that when it comes to the best way to understand the call on the individual Christian's life, I teach as truth that believers are “Saved by Grace through Faith to Love by Suffering as Christ according to the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God.”

This is my ten minutes. I would like to take these topics above, lay them out on this table between Matt and myself and really see how vital they are to a person being viewed as a true Christian, to salvation, and to being received in the Body.

Discussion Points with Matt

SIT DOWN WITH MATT HERE AND WORK THROUGH 14 AREAS TOGETHER

ON BOARD X for Matt X for Shawn

Ideas
Beliefs (or Doubts) Knowing (based on facts)
Truth

Can a person be considered a Christian who differs with orthodoxy in this area?
YES / NO

1
“Sola Scriptura”
Shawn Don’t Accept

2
Water
Baptism
Shawn: Open to any and all

3
Objective Faith vs Subjective Faith
Shawn Open to any and all

4
World Wide Flood
New Earth/Old Earth
Geographical Flood / Old Earth

5
Satan
The absence of light.

6
Eternal Punishment
Don’t Believe

7
Total Reconciliationism
Have an Idea on

8
Eschatology / Jesus Second Coming
Know He has come.

9
Plethora / Tongues
Born-again / Attend Church /Alcohol
SinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace.
Whatever.

13
“Saved by Grace through Faith to Love by Suffering as Christ according to the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God”
I Know this is the Biblical Definition

5 minute break

10
There is one God
It is True

11
Jesus – the author and finisher of our faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life, variables?
It is True

12
The Holy Spirit is Spirit of God / Spirit of Christ
I believe this

The Role of Sola Scriptura

• SOLA SCRIPTURA

  • Do you subscribe to the term sola scriptura?
  • If we go back to the late 1700s and look out to today THAT is how long the early church existed before it had a Bible that was sort of agreed upon. It was another 1000 years before it was available to the masses – and even then the contents were not agreed upon. And yet people scream, “Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura!” God, by His Spirit, has always governed the hearts of seekers, so what’s this about sola scriptura?
  • Do you take the Bible literally or not?
  • How do we decide (and who decides) what is to be literal and what is to be figurative?
  • I would suggest that the Bible is a revelation to those with eyes to see and serves better as a map to spiritual things rather than a manual that must be appealed to in order to govern the Church.
  • Where are you on the chart? (mark the box)

• Water BAPTISM

  • What are your thoughts on water baptism?
  • Necessary for salvation?

Baptism and Its Aspects

Immersion, sprinkling?

• Who can do it? Leader? Men? Women?
• Age?
• In the name of?
• What about those who say it is or is NOT mandatory to salvation?
• Or have other things they require or mandate?
• Or refuse it altogether?

Authority and Religious Institutions

Let’s talk about churches, pastors, brick and mortar institutions.

• Does any religious institution have any authority?
• Where is it derived?
• Do the men who lead them?
• What about women? Do women have authority in the body?
• Who gives them the authority?
• Denominationalism? Which?
• Stance on tithes – the term and its use?
• What about the CAMPUS stance that:
  • The Spirit is Primary and Preferential
  • The Word is Secondary and Referential
  • Church History is Tertiary and at best Deferential
  • And modern attempts at brick and mortar religion and authority are Irrelevant and totally inconsequential as the body is in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

The Story of the Flood

• World-wide or could it have been geographically based?
• All the animals on earth on the ark or just from the geographical area?
• Can a person be a saved Christian and not accept the worldwide flood/ark story?
• Side-Issue: Creation – literal six days or figurative?
• Again, can a person be considered a saved Christian if they believe/teach otherwise?

The Role of Satan

• Is the Genesis account literal or figurative?
• Was it a serpent or Satan or another animal?
• Did God create Satan?

Main Topic: Christian Beliefs and Questions

Is Satan now bound or still in operation?

• Is it possible that Satan was an operative of God’s?
• WHERE ARE YOU ON THE CHART?

Eternal Punishment

• Do you see afterlife punishment in the traditional sense that people who do not accept Jesus here in this life will burn forever in a literal hell or the Lake of Fire?
• Can I be considered a Christian and follower of Jesus if I disagree?
• Do you believe that most of God’s human creations will burn in this place forever?
• Why wouldn’t God save all if He is the only one who saves some?
• WHERE ARE YOU ON THE CHART

(Next Category – Total Reconciliation)

I am of the opinion that God will reconcile all of His creations to Himself, that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. I do not believe that all will be saved (from afterlife loss) but that Christ will ultimately reconcile all to Himself and that this is a process that has gone on since His ascension and will continue on with each person experiencing their own second coming at their respective deaths and will, at that point, receive a resurrected body based on their faith and love or lack thereof. Thoughts?

• Can I be accepted as a Christian for believing and teaching these things?
• Where are you on the board?

Eschatology and Jesus' Second Coming

• What is your eschatology?
• What do you say about those who differ with your views?
• Can a person be deemed a true follower of Christ and maintain full preterist views?
• In your estimation is full preterismThe belief that all biblical prophecy—especially “end times”—was fulfilled by 70 A.D. More an acceptable view in the Body?
• Did I create the full preterist view?
• Where are you on the board?

Veritable Cornucopia

At CAMPUS we believe people can approach God in whatever form they are lead and outcast none. We believe we are all sinners and nobody has the right to impute sin or judgment on another on anything. We reject memberships, authority, tithes and collections, and anything that places a yoke or burden upon congregates – they are to be led according to the Spirit.

Matt (FIRST)
Shawn
Tongues in Church

Don’t care – to me it’s like smoking. You wanna do it, fine, just don’t blow the smoke in other people’s faces.
Modern Miracles

Everyday – but God decides and God performs.
Tithe and the preaching of tithes

If people want to believe it, have at it. To me it's bondage.
Drinking alcohol/Pot

Whatever
Tattoos

Never!
Homosexuals welcome

Sure. As welcome as me.
Women teaching/preaching

Sure.
Communion

If desired
Memberships

Whatever
“Accountability”

Whatever
Sin

It’s here. Accept it’s reality.
Sabbatarians

Whatever

Take a one minute break and come back and talk.

The Trinity: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit

Welcome back. Shawn, first…

We have been discussing a number of issues and have now arrived at a topic that has caused a lot of problems for us and this ministry—namely, my views that differ with Creedal Trinitarianism. It's really important to note that I embrace all people who come to CAMPUS, whether they agree with me or not. Many remain Trinitarian by definition. When it comes to God, I believe we see through a glass darkly, and creedal Trinitarianism is another form of groping. To say anyone has God figured out is, to me, a dangerous sign, and I am highly suspicious of people who want to dictate how we all MUST see Him.

I personally insist on assigning characteristics to God that are biblical. For me, there is safety in this. For instance, the Bible says that God is One. It says there is one God and no more. The scripture says God is love, light, a consuming fire, that He is NOT a man, that He is a merciful and a Jealous God.

Scriptural References on the Nature of God

I accept Deuteronomy 10:17, which says, “For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.” I lean toward passages like 1st Corinthians 8:6 that says: “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

I ask myself when I read a simple set of passages from the Gospel of Mark: Is Jesus and the Jewish scribe discussing the Trinitarian God, which is a three-in-one makeup, or were they discussing Jesus' Father when we read:

Mark 12:28-34: And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked Jesus, “Which is the first commandment of all?” And Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said unto him, “Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, “Thou art not far from the kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future..” And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Exploring Jesus and the Concept of God

When I read the Bible, does it read like Jesus had known all along that the one true God is a three-person being, or does Jesus teach like He never conceived of such an idea since His Father alone was His one and only true God? When Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God," was he speaking of one God, His Father, or a three-person God including the person of the Holy Spirit? Or when Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God," did he mean His Father alone who is His one God and His Father alone and who is also to be our one God?

Then I ask what kind of mental gymnastics have to be attempted to understand this Creedal God of Trinitarianism. What does scripture say about the Word of God made flesh? It says “the Word was with God and the Word was God” but says nothing about the flesh?

The Nature of Jesus in the Flesh

God's Anointed, God’s Christ, God’s Messiah, God’s only begotten Son, God’s Prophet, God’s Apostle, God in the flesh of a Man. He had one nature – that of Man – but unlike the rest of us, He obeyed, and listened to, and spoke for, and followed His father perfectly. By and through suffering He learned obedience. He was God with us – by and through the fullness of the Spirit of God to which He submitted. But in the face of all the passages mentioned, I have an issue with calling Him the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, which admits a Third Person called the Holy Spirit. Not me. I stand by there being one God. Period.

Jesus and the Shema

Back to that simple conversation in the Gospel of Mark with the scribe, we must admit that Jesus:

• . . . came to reveal the true God to us and he always directed our attention to his Father.
• Jesus was born under the Law and required to obey the Law.
• Jesus recognized the Shema as the foremost commandment, "the Lord our God the Lord is one."
• Jesus needed to interpret and understand the words of the Shema in order to obey the commandment.
• Jesus' obedient response to the commandment shows us clearly what those words are intended to mean.
• If Jesus knew the Shema to meant one thing but he did not do what it meant, he disobeyed the foremost commandment of the Law.
• Jesus understood the words of the Shema to mean there is one single HE, "there is no other but HE."
• Jesus recognized and obeyed only one person, his Father alone, as that one single "HE."
• Jesus, an Israelite, confessed the Shema just like every other Israelite, "OUR God." His God was his Father alone.
• Jesus taught us that his God is to be our God and he has made us priests to HIS God and Father.

The Meaning of "The LORD is One"

In these passages of Mark 12:28-34, Jesus and a Jewish scribe agree that the Shema is the foremost command. They also agree that the words "the LORD is one" mean "He is one and there is no other but He.” In this account, Jesus shows us that the Shema means "the LORD is one HE." So we know for certain that Shema means that “the LORD is one HE, one WHO,” but Trinitarians read into the text the notion, "the LORD is one WHAT," which ignores and nullifies the testimony of Jesus concerning the meaning of the Shema.

Even further, we know with absolute certainty how Jesus identified that one single HE of the Shema. He did not identify this HE as a Triune being. The way Jesus observed the Shema was to recognize and serve his Father alone as the one God of Israel. Reasonable people further understand that the word "HE" or "HIM" are words used to refer to a single person. That is the very purpose of using singular personal pronouns. Therefore, in Mark 12:28-34, Jesus' witness shows us that the Shema is referring to one person – not three in one. The proof is in the pudding when we honestly regard how Jesus obeyed the Shema. He observed the Shema command by recognizing and serving only one person as the God of Israel, his Father alone.

Understanding 1 Corinthians 8:6

Nuances and disputes when it comes to understanding what 1st Corinthians 8:6 says: “But to us, there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom

Freedom to Worship

are all things, and we by him. I don’t want to divide on nuances – I just want the freedom to worship Him in spirit and in truth and to allow all men the same opportunity but in total unconditional love irrespective of their views. Brother Matt.

Ideas and Beliefs

(AFTER MATT IS DONE) Discussion then the board

Ideas Beliefs (or Doubts) Knowing (based on facts) Truth

Orthodoxy and Christianity

Can a person be considered a Christian who differs with orthodoxy in this area? YES / NO 13

The Trinity

• Oneness
• Modalism
• Unitarianism

(Open to all)

PHONE CALLS/DISCUSSION