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Romans 8.14
June 27th 2021
MEAT
We left off last week on a very significant verse – and talked about it as we wrapped up – Romans 8:6.
So let’s read it to establish where we are then continue on from there. Romans 8:6
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
And verse 7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Alright back to verse 6 for a minute where Paul says:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
The way I see this, as you all know, is that whatever is the fruit or result of the carnal mind will die – its future is not eternal.
Is it alive and rewarded here? Of course it is. And its not all bad. We enjoy a good food, amusements, things God blesses us with. And they are needed and good here. But that is not “the mind” of the Christ follower. We enjoy but are not minded. Because we know that it all heads to death or an end.
“But to be spiritually minded is life . . .” Paul says, “and peace.” And at this juncture Paul tells us why this is so, saying at verse 7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
In Chapter seven Paul said something interesting about the position or location of the Spirit and the Flesh in man. Remember Romans 7:25?
“So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
There Paul placed the location of our regenerated Spirit in our Mind (and we talked about this before) but the location of our former man or woman (meaning our corrupted selves) in “the Flesh” which he says, “serves the law of sin.”
But here in chapter 8 Paul begins to describe people in terms of how they are generally “minded” – saying we can “be carnally minded or spiritually minded” overall.
In Romans chapter six he gave us an illustration that said when we are born again our corrupt FLESH is buried with Christ and that we as believers RISE to New Life (just as Christ rose from the grave) and operate by our regenerated Spirits.
Again, this illustration appealed to a dualistic nature in regenerated people – one of the flesh that remains carnal, and one of the Spirit that is renewed in us to the mind of God.
But now, (this is important folks) now, here in chapter 8 Paul has essentially dropped all the allusions and parabolic teachings of his earlier illustrations (which were beneficial to our learning) and lays the reality out plain and clear for all to see:
Everything about us – whether it be carnality or spirituality – exists, springs from, grows or dies . . . in what Paul calls, “the human mind.”
For illustrative purposes only I have strongly taught that in our flesh (hit it) there exists no good thing, and in our real identity – our spirit – dwells ONLY good things, HOWEVER the reality is our flesh (sarx) merely represents carnality of the mind, while our regenerate spirit represents a mind operating under the direction of God and His law of life.
Here in Romans 8:6, Paul supplies us with the rule:
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
he doesn’t tell us why – until verse seven, where he says:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (or hostility – hateful hostility) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
And from this we can now distance ourselves from seeing literal actual flesh as bad. Its not. It’s from God. But the carnal mind is not. God is life and love and eternal but to be carnally minded is “death,” Paul says. Why? Because in the end it truly presents a “hatefully hostile disposition” that we bear toward God and His person.
And from this we can assume that to be “hatefully hostile toward God in the mind/heart is synonymous with death – which includes all the imagery of non-growth, decay darkness and loss of things that once thrived.
Why is the carnal mind (which is really nothing more that the unregenerated sinful mind) hostile toward God?
Because it cannot understand Him or His ways in the least. As a result, it is an automatic enemy, mocking Him, ridiculing His ways, and calling those who trust in Him “fools” or “simpletons.”
Recall 1st Corinthians 1:18-29.
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Hear what Paul writes in the second chapter of 1srt Corinthians, beginning at verse 11:
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Over a decade ago I was interviewed for the first time by a dear friend of mine named John Dehlin on his podcast Mormon Stories.
Several years later Mormon Stories held a gathering (of sorts) at Wheeler Farms here in Salt Lake where people who have come out of Mormonism got together socially.
I attended because the ministry supported them with food thanks to Derrick and Denita. I think I was the only Christian (in a sea of about a hundred people) as the rest had primarily turned to atheism or to her sister agnosticism.
Many recognized me from the show and a few ventured over to introduce themselves.
Those few were highly educated men and women as three of them had Ph.d’s under their belts or were working on their dissertations.
For over an hour I listened to their various views and postulations which were highly developed.
Many of them said Heart of the Matter was key in bringing them to see the failure of Mormonism but of all I spoke to in that audience none moved on to Christ.
Broke my heart and I left Wheeler Farms as a failure in heart.
As I walked to my care I could not help but sadly and vaguely remember a phrase that says
“Those who turn from God don’t believe in nothing – they believe in anything.”
And I silently added in my mind, “anything but God.”
The reason is because “the things of God truly become” anathema to them. They hated them! They were hostile toward them, because, as Paul says, “their sinful mind is
“not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
This is not a judgement. It’s an observation from a biblical perspective. And I place the blame for this on Corporate Mormonism directly and it’s use of totalistic methodologies on its people which scorches the hearts of most who leave it from God once and for all.
Thank goodness for His victory over sin and death for all.
But let’s speak to this last part of verse eight for a minute where Paul says that the carnal mind – “is not subject to the Law of God – neither indeed can be.”
There are a number of ideas floating around out there on how to define what Paul here calls “the law of God.”
Talk to some and they will say the Law of God is . . . “Holiness.”
Others will say it is “faith.”
Some will say it is, “obedience.”
But when everything is said and done, and when all the dust settles from the beginning of human time to the wrapping up of it all, the Law of God is without question . . . love – unconditional love. His Law has ALWAYS been love.
When a certain lawyer came to Jesus to tempt him in Matthew 22, he asked the Lord:
“Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
First John chapter four beginning at verse seven adds dimension to the words of Jesus, saying:
1st John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
So, when we jump back to Romans 8:7 where Paul says that the carnal mind is “not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
What it is saying is that “carnally minded individuals are not subject . . . to truly loving . . . either God or neighbor” and they never will.
This is really very interesting claim because when I was at Wheeler Farm all the Phd’s spoke about was “love and goodness and acceptance, freedom and tolerance.”
Yet from their very words none of them were interested in God. None embraced Jesus as pre-imminent, yet all appeared to be under the impression that “they were the loving ones” – while the people (like me) who still clung to the old archaic notions of a Savior dying on the cross for the sins of the world “were anything but!”
I’m not going to take the time to articulate all the nuances of love, but know this:
Those who are unregenerate (who operate by and through a carnal mind) CANNOT love as God wants them to love AND! (listen up – I would suggest AND) those believers who “mind” the things of the flesh can’t either – (recognizing that it is NOT them that is failing to love – but their flesh).
I think Paul is suggesting the very same thing when he sort of reiterates the point with a summary in verse eight:
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Pretty damn clear, isn’t it?
The writer of Hebrews tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, so we know that the carnal mind does not operate by faith, and therefore those who operate by it, cannot please him.
That is sobering news to human beings who are bent on doing well without faith.
Hang with me now.
. . . whether the flesh BEHAVES well or not, IT’S STILL ALL FLESH – and as such it cannot please God! So, if we are believers behaving well or poorly by our flesh, or if we are unbelievers who live good lives or bad, it’s still all flesh, and none of it can please him.
I have given this analogy before but I mean it from the heart:
Suppose there are two homes sitting out in the middle of the salt flats.
One is inhabited by a man named Thomas who loves his wife and family, who serves his community, who gives to the poor and never cheats on his taxes or anything else.
Next door to him is a complete reprobate named Shawn. He has been a violent, sexual deviant, a drunk, a liar, a thief, and has never accomplished a single good deed in all of his life.
A 747 crashes into both homes killing them both.
In a first scenario, let’s say neither man is a believer.
The end-result, according to the Bible – will be loss. For both. Because all they focused on in life will end in loss (or death).
God is just and Shawn the reprobate will certainly “suffer more loss” because he focused most on his flesh and Thomas will suffer “less loss” because he did do well – but loss is in the cards for both.
Second Scenario:
Thomas the good dies an unbeliever but Shawn dies as a believer though fleshly overcome.
According to scripture Thomas will exists outside the Kingdom though rewarded for the things he did by the Spirit. Shawn enters the Kingdom and will be rewarded by the same criteria.
Third Scenario:
Both men die as believers.
Thomas, who did well by the Spirit will enter the Kingdom and be rewarded by God accordingly, and Shawn, who did not, will enter the kingdom and be rewarded based on how he subjected themselves to the Law of God verses his flesh.
Remember, at this point in Romans, Paul has led us to a place where the topic now is all about Christian fruit bearing.
And he is teaching us how to bring about the only fruit God desires or recognizes from human beings – fruit of love produced by and through the Spirit.
And so, he tells us that it is impossible, through the carnal mind, to be subject to the law of love or of God.
But listen – before we place ourselves under a heavy burden, remember, Paul ALWAYS resorts to the principles he established in chapter seven – that we as believers have a true identity in Christ by which we will operate.
With that in mind listen to what he writes in verse 9:
9 But YOU are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I would suggest that Paul here is makng three general but important points.
First, where he writes, “But YOU are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit” he is reminding all who know Christ that they have an identity in Him that is not only new but describes who we REALLY are in Him.
We’ve already talked about this identity at length in previous weeks. And what does this mean to us?
That we are not in the flesh, so we are not under the full influence of corrupt desires and passions that dwell in unregenerated humanity. Why so?
Because we are, “in the Spirit.”
We are spiritually minded (too) and as such are under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit of God. But take note! Paul adds here:
“But YOU are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.”
This is a very important “IF/THEN” when it comes to our identity as believers because he states plainly that we, as believers, are NOT in the flesh . . . (adding the caveat) . . . IF the Spirit of God dwells in us.
This is radical. And it points back to the message of a few weeks back where we said that as believers, we are NOT what resides in our fleshly bodies, or in our carnal minds (sin) “not IF the Spirit of God dwells in us.”
Here is the first principle of being a Christian – the indwelling of the Holy Spirit made possible by God’s grace through faith on the shed blood, sacrifice, death, and resurrection of His Son.
I realize that the lines short of shift in this discussion and that things are not black and white in terms of a clearly defined character we have in the face of being flesh and spirit here. So allow me to read some passages to help clarify what Paul is saying to believers.
Ready?
1st Corinthians 3:16
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
1st Corinthians 6:19
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
2nd Corinthians 6:16
“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
Ephesians 2:19-22
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Galatians 4:6
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Ephesians 3:16-17
“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love . . .”
Paul continues on and draws a very dark line between those who are His (because He is in them) and those who are not, by adding in verse 9:
“Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not one bit His.”
Sobering.
Note that the phrase “the spirit of Christ,” is used synonymously with all these biblical titles, including
“the Spirit of God,”
“the Holy Spirit,”
“the “Spirit of Truth,”
“Spirit of the Lord,”
“Spirit of Holiness,”
“Spirit of Life,”
“Spirit of Him,”
“Spirit of Adoption,”
“Spirit of Meekness,”
“Spirit of the Living God,”
“Spirit of Faith,”
“Spirit of His Son,”
“Spirit of Promise,”
“Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation,” “ “Spirit of Jesus Christ,”
“the Eternal Spirit,”
“Spirit of Grace,”
“Spirit of Glory,” and
“ Spirit of Prophecy.”
This describes to meOne God, One Lord and One Spirit – all synonymous. In other words, to have the Spirit of Christ is to have the spirit of God is to have the Holy Spirit. But that is for another day.
Paul continues (verse 10), giving us more insight
10 And if “Christ be in you,” the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
“And if Christ be in you.”
How can Christ be in us if Christ is in a physical body at the right hand of the Father?
The LDS say that it is impossible for Christ to “be in us” because they say he has a physical body. But that is contrary to scripture.
Consider Galatians 2:20:
“ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
Recall that the Lord told the apostles:
John 14:19-20
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Colossians 1:27 adds
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
Here’s the key: Paul says (listen believers!):
10 And if “Christ be in you,” the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Now this passage has been interpreted in a number of very different ways.
But I would suggest that IN CONTEXT, (where Paul has been writing about the state of the flesh relative to the state of the Mind of Christ existing in believers) that the best interpretation is
The body refers to – the flesh or carnal mind.
It is subject to corrupt passions and desires but in the presence of Christ within us, it is dead – because He died due to, and for, sin.
And sin did not have the victory as Christ rose from the dead and resurrected to perfection, overcoming sin and death THROUGH His crucified flesh.
So, when Christ (or the Spirit of Christ) is indwelling with us by faith, our flesh is dead (as Christ died for and due to sin) and is figuratively buried, but “the Spirit is alive due to His righteousness.”
Perhaps a better way to understand this might be with an example.
What do you suppose would be your inclination (as a regenerated believer residing in a house of flesh) if the Lord Himself were to walk into this very room today?
I mean, we would surely gather around Him, bow down under the weight of love and gratitude, we would hug him and feel his presence – so, what would be the inclination of the inner woman or man or of your physical body toward him?
I would bet that all of us would for at least a moment be overwhelmed by the inner woman or man and would be fully engaged according to our inward persons.
But after a hour or a day or a week, even with Jesus here with us, would we get hungry? Tired? Need to use the restroom?
Those are the ways of the physical body. So while our inner person would long to stay and speak and be with Him, our bodies, while still mortal, would demand attention – which would take our attention off of Him.
I think that perhaps this may be the best way to understand what Paul means in this passage. And verse 11 sort of feeds into the illustration, saying:
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
In other words, the very Spirit that raised Christ from the grave of sin and death and restored Him to resurrected life dwells in us, AND AS IT HAD the POWER TO RESTORE HIM TO LIFE . . . (beat) . . . Paul says . . .
“It ALSO has the power to give new life to us! So, spiritually, we have “New life” while we reside in these bodies! Life where, even though we still inhabit flesh, we will overcome it’s sinful effects and influences upon us as we yield to the Spirit dwelling within us.
In John 14:19 Christ Himself said something profound relative to this:
He said to His disciples, “Because I live, ye shall live also.”
Some say this refers to resurrection.
I agree.
Some say this refers to regeneration of the Spirit.
I agree.
Some say this refers to living an abundant life now.
I agree.
Some say this means eternal life.
I agree.
And some say it means believers will live the rest of their mortal lives in the service of God.
Again, I agree . . . because He lives, we also “live” . . . in any and every way. He gives life MORE abundantly.
And while the flesh remains a presence, it is not the governor. He is. From within. Wrapping up Paul says something sort of quizzical at verse 12
12 Therefore, brethren, (he writes) we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Therefore, we find ourselves under obligation, having received such a gift, such power, such an ability from His “presence within.”
This “obligation” arises first from the fact that the Spirit, gifted to us by God’s grace, dwells in us and aids us in overcoming the former woman or man.
I mean, we have received a free gift – from God – wouldn’t we be under some sort of grateful obligation to use it? I think so.
And having been recovered from death due to sin within us, Him who saved us or pulled us from the wreckage, has a claim on what we do with our time and life from that point forward.
We have been bought with a price.
There is an old eastern saying that if a person saves the life of another he or she is responsible for that life.
Perhaps as Christ has saved us, He is responsible to guide us where He wants us to go. As our shepherd. And He does – by virtue of His indwelling Spirit.
Of course, having been saved from death and hell, the western thought states that if someone saves a life, the saved are obligated to serve them.
So, in return, as debtors, those saved by Christ will seek to do His will – which is to love – and which is only possible by living by the Spirit . . . and not the flesh. (verse 13)
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
This passage is up to some debate. It’s really not easy to explain on a number of accounts.
First of all for Paul to say, “For if you THROUGH THE SPIRIT do mortify the deed of the Body you will live” we know he is speaking to believers because only believers can do anything by the Spirit, right?
Since this is the audience we have an issue here that must be addressed:
Is it possible for a believer to “live after the flesh?” as Paul clearly suggests? Of course it is, remembering that “to live after” means to serve, pursue and make the flesh the object of our existence.
In these words Paul proves that Christians, having Christ in them, can choose, through their flesh, to live after it, ruining the man-made teaching of “once saved always saved.”
Remember all the things we have covered at this point before you start fretting over your place with God. We are talking about chasing the flesh, turning from the Spirit and choosing a life of flesh-serving activities here, not slips and failures.
But Paul does warn us that those who do this, “we will die.”
Die how?
We know all people die physically, but he could be speaking of our physical death being accelerated by a Christian chasing after the flesh with the idea being that God will turn you over to the rewards of your deeds which will consume you.
Therefore, there could be a literal application to what Paul says in Galatians 6:8 when he wrote
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
We also know that in Paul’s day of apostolic leadership he said to the believers at Corinth when they were dealing with a man who was sleeping with his father’s wife that he said:
1st Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a man unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
So, there is the possibility that Paul is speaking of destruction in the flesh of the believer but not necessarily the inner man or woman. That is a very literal interpretation of “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Remembering the catch-phrase, “live after,” we also have to ask if Paul is speaking of dying spiritually here, when, yet again, he says to believers, (mind you):
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Admittedly, when scripture speaks doctrinally of death and living it usually refers to spiritual death and life, and to interpret this passage spiritually, it makes it seem like our salvation is based on our acts of holiness instead of our faith.
I would suggest that taking everything in hand that Paul has said, and what he will say, that this passage is suggesting two things (and maybe more):
First, if believers (let me reiterate this – believers) lived after their flesh they could experience an accelerated physical demise.
Second, if believers pursued after the flesh, instead of mortifying their flesh by the SPIRIT, they would in the end, crush their faith (through what scripture calls the deceitfulness of sin) which again, could end in spiritual death. Not because of the acts of the flesh but because of the death of faith which can occur through the “sin of unbelief” because of the deceitfulness of fleshly sin.
Paul concludes with a fantastic passage which we will cover next week when he says at verse 14
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Questions/Insights/Comments
Prayer
