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Exploring the Concept of Pre-existence
Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.
Show 24 501 Pre-existence – Part I
June 14th 2016
Our prayer tonight will be given by:
Remember, brother Matt Slick will be here again from CARM.org to discuss the essentials and non-essentials to the Christian faith. When? Tune in with your questions and observations. And how about something from our Board of Direction?
Comparing Scripture Translations
(show 8 second intro here please)
KJV or RSV: They say similar things but present altogether different messages which create altogether different thoughts.
In my daily morning studies and musings, I read Psalm 10:4 out of my King James Thompson Chain Bible this morning. I was inspired and on a paper napkin constructed a mini-sermon on the verse which says:
“The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.” (King James Version)
From it, I drew the head of a man and inside the head placed a brain where the title GOD filled the entirety of it. I was contemplating the life of a person who had no thought of God in their head and compared such a person with a person who has some God in their head and then to a person who lives with all God in their head. After fleshing this out a bit, I wondered what the line, “through the pride of his countenance” could mean?
In English, when we do something “through” we are accomplishing it by applying or using something. When I speak to an audience through a microphone then I am speaking to them through the device. So when I read that the wicked, THROUGH THE PRIDE OF HIS COUNTENANCE I was befuddled. The light then came on and I realized that what was being said by David was, “The wicked while having a proud look on their face will not seek after God.” At this point, I decided to examine some other translations of the passage only to discover that they pretty much clarify and support what the King James has to say.
For example:
ASV – “The wicked, in the pride of his countenance . . .”
MKJV – “Through the pride of his face the wicked will not seek . . .”
RSV – “In the pride of his countenance the wicked does not seek him . . .”
WEB – “The wicked, in the pride of his face . . .”
YLT – “The wicked according to the height of his face . . .”
BBE – “The evil-doer in his pride says,”
DBY – “The wicked [saith], in the haughtiness of his countenance . . .”
Interpretations of Psalm 10:4
So far so good. And from this, I knew I could say that the Psalmist was proclaiming that wicked people, in and through a proud face, look or countenance . . . do something. I looked back to the King James:
“The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.” (King James Version)
Oh, okay, so the wicked through a proud face . . . will not seek after God (In other words) God is not in all his thoughts!” Got it, I thought, and I started to redraw another head of a man with an empty brain. Then I glanced at the other translations that remained on my laptop. Much to my surprise (and chagrin) I discovered that while all the versions pretty much agreed as to what the first line said, they were not in agreement on how the verse ended.
So where we read in the King James:
“The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.” (King James Version)
I found that the following version supported this translation, saying:
WEB – “The wicked, in the pride of his face, has no room in his thoughts for God.”
But then I saw that five of the other translations supported a completely different idea, all suggesting:
ASV – “The wicked, in the pride of his countenance, [saith], He will not require [it]. All his thoughts are, There is no God.”
YLT – “The wicked according to the height of his face, inquireth not. `God is not!' [are] all his devices.”
BBE – “The evil-doer in his pride says, God will not make a search. All his thoughts are, There is no God.”
DBY – “The wicked [saith], in the haughtiness of his countenance, He
The Wicked and Their Thoughts
RSV- “In the pride of his countenance the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, "There is no God."
Only one took the two thoughts (that God is not in all the thoughts of the wicked AND that there is no God) and said:
MKJV- “Through the pride of his face the wicked will not seek [Him]; There [is] no God in all his schemes.”
What are we to say? How are we to see this discrepancy. Admittedly, the passages do relate to each other but the King James and the WEB clearly suggest that the wicked man has no room in his thoughts for God,” while the ASV, YLT, BBE, DBY and RSV all clearly say that the wicked not only do not seek or inquire after God but that all their thoughts are screaming, “God does not even exist!”
This is a VERY different message, proven by my napkin illustrations because based on the King James verse my illustration looked like this:
GOD GOD God to some extent or another.
No GOD No GOD No God whatsoever.
No GOD in schemes No GOD in schemes No God in his schemes
The Hebrew of the KJV is
Ps 10:4 The wicked <rasha`>, through the pride
Compiled it looks like this
rasha` gobahh 'aph darash 'elohiym m@zimmah
RASHA – wicked bad person GOBAHH – loftiness, pride and elation APH – the snout, nose, nostril thus face DARESH – pursue, question, follow ELOHIYM – god or Supreme God MEZZIMAH – a plan or scheme, usually evil sometimes good.
So, “wicked person proud in snout follow God in schemes”
Adding complexity to the issue the LXX of the passage is translated into English as:
“The sinner has provoked the Lord, according to the abundance of his pride he will not seek after: God is not before Him.”
Individual Responsibility and Biblical Interpretation
Herein lies (yet another) proof that the Bible – no matter the translation – is to be read and determined by the Spirit through the individual because each message is not only filtered through the minds of the person reading (or hearing it taught) and the translational differences prove that we are subject to thinking and perceiving Him and His word in altogether different ways.
With this being the case, as proven here, then each individual is absolutely responsible before God for what they have sought, read, believed, and assumed. This is why God seeks those who SEEK HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
And as His truths are revealed to them, THOSE WHO have rightfully discerned the Word will love !!! This is the proof that the Bible has been discerned properly – the INDIVIDUAL believers LOVE.
Exploring the Pre-Existence in LDS Doctrine
And with that let’s get into our next topic for Heart of the Matter – the Pre-Existence or pre-mortal existence as the LDS say.
Of all the topics unique to Mormonism this one, in THIS day and age, is toward the top in making LDS doctrine distinct. Along with a multiplicity of God’s through and eternal regression of them, to God the Father having a body and Jesus being His literal offspring (along with ha Satan) the pre-mortal existence is really, really unique to Mormon doctrine and once embraced is one of the most difficult things for faithful Latter-day Saints to let go.
As you may have guessed, all of the things we have been talking about since the beginning of the year are connected. In October of last year we started with God and His make-up, then we continued talking about Jesus and His, then the Holy Spirit, then Satan.
Most of the unique LDS beliefs regarding these persons are answered or somehow connected to their belief in what is known as the pre-mortal existence. The one character not yet discussed that is tied to the LDS pre-mortal existence is their elusive Mother in Heaven figure – but she’s going to pop up here as we get into this state called the pre-mortal existence.
Bottom line to Latter day Saints the doctrine of the “pre-mortal existence” is all about the spirit-life of all human creations prior to mortality.
Joseph F Smith, sixth President of the LDS church said:
“All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity . . . man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father prior to coming to earth in a temporal physical body.” (Joseph F Smith, The Origins
Distinct Doctrines of Pre-Mortal Worthiness
Because of a belief that we were not all equal in make-up or in obedience and labors (presumably for God) there is a whole subset of doctrines that extend off this belief that have to do with pre-mortal worthiness, obedience, and rebellion (which we will also touch on as we go along). Some LDS will say that such a teaching is not part of active LDS doctrine but this would be untrue. In fact, in the 2009 LDS publication, Gospel Principles it says that all of us “possessed different talents and abilities” (in the pre-mortal state) which were developed “to varying levels.”
(LDS GOSPEL PRINCIPLES 2009, pg. 10)
Because all of us spirit children were in a sense limited in our ability to grow God the Father (or Heavenly Father to them) came up with a plan where we could become more like Him (in gaining a physical body like He has) and then proving our ability to resist temptation and the like by passing tests placed before us. To the LDS, all of us knew that in taking on bodies we would sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. – to some degree or another – and therefore God chose a savior who would redeem us from our sins IF we would repent and then obey him.
The Role of Jesus and Satan
The Satan offered up a counter plan and said, according to Moses 4:1 – a book of LDS scripture):
“I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.”
Here we can see, as mentioned last week, that in Mormonism much more detail is given in the story of Satan and his intentions and origins. According to the LDS Gospel Principles book of 2009, Satan’s plan would have destroyed human agency by forcing everyone to be obedient. In the end, God chose Jesus to be the Savior of Man (instead of Satan’s gig) and Satan got mad, rebelled, started a war in heaven where he got 1/3 of the hosts of heaven (our spirit brothers and sisters) to follow him. These were all cast out of heaven and their eternal progression was at that point stunted by their losing the opportunity to get a body like the rest of us who did NOT follow Satan – but instead chose to go with the Father’s plan – and come down here and get physical bodies.
Notions and Perceptions
In light of these teachings there are a number of really unique ideas that sort of exist in the minds of active and informed LDS people. I’m not saying that they are all official LDS doctrine but many of them are allowed to float around in everyday LDS discussion – here’s a few of them: Because some were more valiant that others in the pre-mortal existence they are often more blessed in this life in a number of different areas.
We might place them on a continuum that looks something like this:
ON THE FAR RIGHT WE HAVE
The ULTIMATE
Born –white
Born in the covenant (to faithful temple wed LDS parents)
In America
Even better in Utah
To a family of LDS renown
Male
Wealthy
Healthy
Handsome
Athletic
You get the pictureAND ON THE FAR LEFT WE HAVE PEOPLE
Born of a different race (the worst being black)
Not in the covenant
Into a broken home
Not in America
Female
Unattractive
etc.
So as a living example, we are comparing what might be a Mitt Romney type (on the far right) to a poor fly covered black woman without legs living in the dirt of Nairobi as an example of the rewards for having lived a righteous life in the pre-existence.
Additionally, there are LDS people who believe that their families were families in the pre-mortal existence (something that founding prophet alludes to) and some believe that in the pre-mortal existence some people made promises to find and help others when they came to earth. One LDS apostle made the conjecture that certain special interest groups on earth like homosexuals spent their time in the pre-mortal existence honing their skills in the arts and the like while the more valiant spent their time learning the things of God. In years past LDS leaders taught that a belief in a pre-mortal existence is the only equitable way we can view God in the face of the suffering and inequality that exists on this earth.
In other words, if you are born into suffering here it’s because of your own failures (laziness, sin, fence-sitting) there. Therefore, because of the lower socio-economic status of many races in third world countries (as compared to the raised status of white males in places
The Concepts of Pre-Mortal Existence in LDS Belief
In many LDS teachings, the idea of a pre-mortal existence is a cornerstone of understanding our current lives on earth. This view suggests that our earthly circumstances, including aspects such as skin color and disabilities, are linked to our pre-mortal life choices and valiance. The narrative begins with a "sifting" during the pre-mortal existence when a third of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother's children followed Lucifer, leaving the remaining 2/3rds to accept the plan to obtain earthly bodies.
Upon arrival to earth, an ongoing sifting continues, influenced by pre-mortal decisions. Those perceived as valiant are believed to receive earthly advantages; however, those labeled as less valiant face challenges related to these choices. Conversion to the faith and overcoming these pre-mortal choices can be seen as a form of redemption. This sifting extends to those in the church, determining who passes life's tests and ultimately becomes God's, as opposed to those whom Satan sifts into outer darkness.
Understanding the Human Soul
The LDS perspective on pre-mortal spirits and mortality involves several facets, including the nature of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Satan. To fully grasp this notion, it's crucial to compare both Christian and LDS viewpoints on the human soul. The Old Testament, particularly Genesis, illustrates man as a living soul created from the dust, animated by the breath of God:
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Some Judeo-Christian traditions have evolved over time without initially indicating a duality of body and spirit. Dr. Everett Ferguson notes that the body-soul dichotomy stems from Platonic thought, not Biblical teachings. Contrary to this evolution, ancient Hebrews reportedly viewed humans as bodies animated by breath, not a separate body and spirit.
Ancient and Modern Perspectives on the Soul
The Bible depicts life as breath-dependent, as seen in Genesis and Ezekiel's vision of dried bones that come to life with breath. Catholic teachings align with this perspective:
Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils."
Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out…"
This view suggests life's dependence on divine breath, indicating no separate existence of a "pre-mortal spirit." The LDS concept of pre-mortal existence starkly contrasts with biblical texts, which traditionally do not support the idea of a subsequent spiritual existence before life on earth.
The Nature of Spirit and Soul in the Old Testament
Zechariah 12:1 says, “The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says:
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Additionally, in many places the Spirit and the soul seem to be used interchangeably or as one.
Interchangeability of Spirit and Soul
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Understanding the Spirit of God
Long story short, throughout the Old Testament (and there are some exceptions which seem to open the door to more understanding of the subject in the New) but throughout the Old Testament there was no Spirit or soul that was a distinct entity coexisting with the body but simply there was the spirit of God.
As Charles Harrell says, “for the ancient Hebrews, breath was life.” To an Old Testament Jew, their soul was simply their life given by God breathing His Spirit into the clay and human beings being given life. When God calls His spirit back, the soul is dead as is the body. We’ll continue on with the development of the human soul over the course of the ages next week.
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