Heart of the Matter with Shawn McCraney

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

Show 43 469
October 27th, 2015

Part of our hopes in this ministry is to help move lovers of God through Christ Jesus from dogma to love. To let go of “attitudes” that create division, demarcation, and literally hatred for others, and with the love of Christ in us reach all people with the message of Christianity – all people (including each other) all the time.

Sundar Singh's Journey

I was recently sent this article and it supports these efforts so well I wanted to share most of it with you tonight. Now, in the article the word Universalism is assigned to the person being described. In those two instances, I have replaced Universalism with Total Reconciliationism because after examining the person the use of Universalism is incorrect. He is a Christian who believes God will reconcile all people, of different after-life make-ups, to Himself THROUGH CHRIST JESUS AND CHRIST JESUS ALONE. Please take a minute and bless your lives with the story of a man who might get you to see our beautiful faith a little clearer.

Introduction to Sundar Singh

His name is Sundar Singh.

The article was sent in by Darrick Evanson who found it on www.tentmakers.org (a great site full of insightful information). The article was written by Ed Babinski, with the two changes to Babinski’s use of universalism by me. Sundar Singh was lauded by 20th-century evangelical Christians for converting to Christianity around the turn of the century. Even in the 1970s, Sundar was highly thought of by Evangelical Christians. At that time, I heard a Christian radio dramatization of the story of Sundar's miraculous conversion and his dangerous preaching journeys to India and Tibet. I bought two books that told his story at evangelical Christian bookstores. The evangelical Christian apologist, Josh McDowell (of Josh McDowell ministries) cited Sundar's conversion in the first and second editions of his book, “Evidence Demands a Verdict.”

While reading the evangelical versions of Sundar's life and teachings, I never once ran across Sundar's “Total Reconciliationalist” statements, and it was not until I read Sundar's own works, along with some of the in-depth biographies that had been written about him nearer his own day that these views came forth. Sundar was raised a member of the Sikh religion. (Sikhism is a sect within Hinduism that was founded about 1500 A.D. that teaches belief in one God and rejects the caste system and idolatry.) Prior to his conversion, Sundar attended a primary school run by the American Presbyterian Mission where the New Testament was read daily as a "textbook." Sundar refused to read the Bible at the daily lessons . . . but said “to some extent the teaching of the Gospel on the love of God attracted me, but I still thought it was false." Though, according to another testimony, Sundar confessed, "Even then, I felt the Divine attractiveness and wonderful power of the Bible."

Crisis and Revelation

In the midst of such confusion and while only fourteen years old, his mother died, and Sundar underwent a crisis of faith. His mother was a loving saintly woman, and they were very close. (Shawn Only: When I read this I think of many, many people who were raised LDS by wonderfully kind and loving parents and have become Christian and wonder so much about their parents' state before God. Stay with me)

In his anger, (by his mother's deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God.) Sundar burned a copy of one of the Gospels in public. He later said: "Although I believed that I had done a very good deed by burning the Bible, I felt unhappy," he said. Within three days, Sundar Singh could bear his misery no longer. Late one night in December 1903, he rose from bed and prayed that God reveal himself to him if he really existed. Otherwise (he said) "I planned to throw myself in front of the train which passed by our house." For seven hours, Sundar Singh prayed. "O God, if there is a God, reveal thyself to me tonight." The next train was due at five o'clock in the morning. The hours passed.

Suddenly the room filled with a glow. A man appeared before him. Sundar Singh heard a voice say, "How long will you deny me? I died for you; I have given my life for you." He saw the man's hands, pierced by nails. Jesus was the

Sundar Singh's Spiritual Journey

The last person Sundar was looking for. After all, Jesus was the 'foreign god' of the Christian teachers at his school… Amazed that his vision had taken the unexpected form of Jesus, Sundar was convinced in his heart that Jesus was the true Savior, and that He was alive. He fell on his knees before Him and experienced an astonishing peacefulness which he had never felt before. The vision disappeared, but peace and joy lingered within him. To meet Christ was only the beginning for Sundar Singh. He was a Sikh. Sikhs had endured terrible persecutions in their early history. As a consequence, they were fiercely loyal to their faith and to each other. Conversion to Christianity was considered treachery. Now every effort was made to woo (or coerce) Sundar Singh back to his ancestral faith. Despite his family's pleas, bribes, and threats, Sundar wanted to be baptized in the Christian faith. After his father spoke words of official rejection over him, Sundar became an outcast from his people. He cut off the hair he had worn long (like every Sikh man). Against great opposition, he was baptized on his birthday in 1905, in an English church in Simla.

Sundar's Transformation Into a Sadhu

Conventional Indian Christian churches were willing to grant Sundar a pulpit, but their rules were foreign to his spirit. Indeed, he felt that a key reason the gospel was not accepted in India was because it came in a garb foreign to Indians. He decided to become a sadhu, so that he could dedicate himself to the Lord Jesus. He was convinced that this was the best way to introduce the Gospel to his people since it was the only way which his people were accustomed to. As a sadhu, he wore a yellow robe, lived on the charity of others, abandoned all possessions and maintained celibacy. In this lifestyle, he was free to devote himself to the Lord. Dressed in his thin yellow robe, Sundar Singh took to the road and began a life of spreading the simple message of love, peace, and rebirth through Jesus. He carried no money or other possessions, only a New Testament.

"I am not worthy to follow in the steps of my Lord," he said, "but like Him, I want no home, no possessions. Like Him I will belong to the road, sharing the suffering of my people, eating with those who will give me shelter, and telling all people of the love of God." Sundar journeyed much. He traveled all over India and Ceylon. Between 1918-1919, he visited Malaysia, Japan, and China. Between 1920-1922 he went to Western Europe, Australia, and Israel. He preached in many cities; Jerusalem, Lima, Berlin, and Amsterdam among others.

Sundar's Views on Western Christianity

Despite his growing fame, Sundar retained a modest nature, desiring only to follow Jesus' example: to repay “evil with kindness” and win over his enemies by love. This attitude often caused his enemies to feel ashamed of themselves, and caused even his father to become a Christian later in life and to support Sundar in ministry. He was quite independent of outward Church authority in all his religious life, thought, and work. He dropped out of a Christian seminary that he briefly attended. Neither did he attach much importance to public worship because in his experience “the heart prays better in solitude than in a congregation.”

He was also highly displeased with what he found when he toured western nations that for centuries had the benefit of the Bible and whose central figure of worship was Jesus. Sundar proclaimed almost prophetic denunciations upon Western Christianity, and laughed at the way the West looked down upon religious men of the East as mere "pagans" and "heathens." "People call us heathens," he said in a conversation with the Archbishop of Upsala. "Just fancy! My mother a heathen! If she were alive now she would certainly be a Christian. But even while she followed her ancestral faith she was so religious that the term 'heathen' makes me smile. She prayed to God, she served God, she loved God, far more warmly and deeply than many Christians."

(Shawn: Are the walls around your heart falling down yet? This is what Jesus came to do, my friends. Don’t fear the love. Don’t fear the unknown. God is in charge and Jesus is Lord.)

To the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, Sundar made plain his views saying, "There are many more people among us in India who lead a spiritual life than in the West, although…"

The Legacy of Sundar Singh

They do not know or confess Christ. It is of course true that people who live in India worship idols; but here in England people worship themselves, and that is still worse. Idol-worshippers seek the truth, but people over here, so far as I can see, seek pleasure and comfort. The people of the West understand how to use electricity and how to fly in the air. The men of the East have sought the truth. Of the three Wise Men who went to Palestine to see Jesus not one was from the West.'

He travelled India and Tibet, as well as the rest of the world, with the message that the modern interpretation of Jesus was sadly watered down. Sundar visited Tibet every summer. In 1929, he visited that country again and was never seen again. Few Christians know that Sundar was not afraid to raise his voice in favor of "Total Reconciliationism." He could never deny to all non-Christians (on earth) the possibility of entering heaven. In 1925 Sundar wrote, "If the Divine spark in the soul cannot be destroyed, then we need despair of no sinner… since God created men to have fellowship with Himself, they cannot for ever be separated from Him… After long wandering, and by devious paths, sinful man will at last return to Him in whose Image he was created; for this is his final destiny."

Sundar's Interviews and Beliefs

In February, 1929, the year Sundar disappeared on his final missionary trip to Tibet, he was interviewed by several theology students in Calcutta, India, where he answered their questions:

1. What did he think should be our attitude towards non-Christian religions? SUNDAR replied: The old habit of calling them 'heathen' should go. The worst 'heathen' were among us [Christians]…

2. Who were right, Christian Fundamentalists or Christian Liberals? – SUNDAR SAID: Both were wrong. The Fundamentalists were uncharitable to those who differed from them. That is, they were unchristian. The Liberals sometimes went to the extent of denying the divinity of Christ, which they had no business to do.

3. Did Sandar think there was eternal punishment? SUNDAR REPLIED: There was punishment, but it was not eternal…everyone after this life would be given a fair chance of making good, and attaining to the measure of fullness the soul was capable of. This might sometimes take ages."

Personal Reflections

Let me wrap up this report of this beautiful Christian man with a few additional quotes for you to consider: "He was searching for me before I sought Him. Christ whom I had never expected came to me. I was praying, 'If there be a God, reveal Thyself'…I was praying to Hindu gods and incarnations. But when He came there was no anger in His face, even though I had burnt the Bible three days before. None of you have ever destroyed Scripture like me. He is such a wonderful, loving, living Savior…"

"There is a great difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Him… If we only know of Jesus as a good man, a great example, it is no help to us. Those who know Him know Who He is. When we know Him everything is different and we are living in a new world — a new atmosphere. Heaven begins on earth for us. Those who know Him know that Jesus is everything to them. They can bear witness because they have been living with Him…If we live in Him He will reveal Himself to us and we shall bear witness — not for a day or a night only…"

"For the first two or three years after my conversion, I used to ask for specific things. Now I ask for God. Supposing there is a tree full of fruits — you will have to go and buy or beg the fruits from the owner of the tree. Every day you would have to go for one or two fruits. But if you can make the tree your own property, then all the fruits will be your own. In the same way, if God is your own, then all things in Heaven and on earth will be your own, because He is your Father and is everything to you; otherwise you will have to go and ask like a beggar for certain things. When they are used up, you will have to ask again. So ask not for gifts but for the Giver of Gifts: not for life but for the Giver of Life — then life and the things needed for

Unseen Presence of Faith

"Life will be added unto you."

"Salt, when dissolved in water, may disappear, but it does not cease to exist. We can be sure of its presence by tasting the water. Likewise, the indwelling Christ, though unseen, will be made evident to others from the love which he imparts to us."

"From my many years experience I can unhesitatingly say that the cross bears those who bear the cross."

"While sitting on the bank of a river one day, I picked up a solid round stone from the water and broke it open. It was perfectly dry in spite of the fact that it had been immersed in water for centuries. The same is true of many people in the Western world. For centuries they have been surrounded by Christianity; they live immersed in the waters of its benefits. And yet it has not penetrated their hearts; they do not love it. The fault is not in Christianity, but in men's hearts, which have been hardened by materialism and intellectualism."

Honor and Humility

"When Jesus entered Jerusalem the people spread their clothes in the way and strewed branches before Him in order to do Him honor. Jesus rode upon an ass, according to the word of the prophet. His feet did not touch the road which was decorated in His honor. It was the ass which trod upon the garments and the branches. But the ass would have been very foolish to have been uplifted on that account; for the road really was not decked in its honor! It would be just as foolish if those who bear Christ to men were to think anything of themselves because of what men do to them for the sake of Jesus."

"A newborn child has to cry, for only in this way will his lungs expand. A doctor once told me of a child who could not breathe when it was born. In order to make it breathe the doctor gave it a slight blow. The mother must have thought the doctor cruel. But he was really doing the kindest thing possible. As with newborn children the lungs are contracted, so are our spiritual lungs. But through suffering God strikes us in love. Then our lungs expand and we can breathe and pray."

Purification in Prayer

"Just as the salt water of the sea is drawn upwards by the hot rays of the sun, and gradually takes on the form of clouds, and, turned thus into sweet and refreshing water, falls in showers on the earth (for the sea water as it rises upwards leaves behind it its salt and bitterness), so when the thoughts and desires of the man of prayer rise aloft like misty emanations of the soul, the rays of the Sun of Righteousness purify them of all sinful taint, and his prayers become a great cloud which descends from heaven in a shower of blessing, bringing refreshment to many on the earth."

Wouldn’t this world of ardent ugly, political, doctrinally based, oppressive, judgmental evangelicalism do well to have more – millions more – Christians in its ranks like Sundar Sighn?

We can only hope and pray . . . and then be those types of Christians ourselves.

And with that how about a word of Prayer, given tonight by

__________________________________.

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

"Okay so we continue to discuss the LDS view of the make-up of God versus the Christian.

Last week we noted how founder of Mormonism Joseph Smith morphed in his views of God and how he wound up saying in the last year of his life that there were three God’s – Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We also pointed out how this definition was really not that far from the Trinitarian view with THREE big exceptions:

First, while admitting (like the LDS) that God consists of three persons Trinitarians do not call this the Godhead (as the LDS do) but say these three are one God. This mystery is in the end incomprehensible to Man. To a Mormon, the three persons are one in purpose not in substance.

Secondly, where Trinitarians suggest, like the LDS, that all three are persons, co-equal and co-eternal, uncreated and having always been, the LDS have the Father of their Godhead actually forming Christ Jesus out of pre-existing intelligent matter. Because Jesus came from eternally existing matter the LDS will say that He, Jesus, has always been, but the caveat lies in the fact that He was formed or created into"

The Nature of God

Jesus by God at some point in time where Trinitarians say that Jesus, like the Father and the Holy Spirit, has always been. A third major difference between the LDS make-up of God and the Trinitarian is that the LDS teach that the Father and the Son both have bodies of flesh and bone, as tangible as man's where the Trinitarians say that only Jesus has a body but the father is Spirit. Both the LDS and Christian Trinitarians say that the Holy Spirit is a person (or has his own separate core individual core consciousness) but is spirit.

As we have also pointed out, in Smith’s Book of Mormon, a publication which predates any of his claims of having been visited by God the Father in a body of flesh and bones, never describes the Father as possessing such a make-up. This information came out to the public in Smith’s post-1830 history of a first vision he claimed to have back in 1820.

Joseph Smith's First Vision

Former Prophet of Mormonism Gordon Hinckley, when asked if Mormons believe in the traditional Christ he replied, while visiting Switzerland: “No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of all the ages.”

Again referring to Joseph Smith’s first vision, Hinckley later said, on October 7th, 2002: “Our whole strength rests on the validity of that (first) vision . . . it either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most wonderful and important work under the heavens.” Because we are talking about the make-up of God in Mormonism and Christianity we cannot escape a discussion of the first vision because, as now deceased LDS prophet Hinckley said: “when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of all the ages.”

The official version says, in effect that . . .

The Account of the First Vision

In 1820, when Joseph Smith was a fourteen-year-old boy, there was “no small stir” among the people of his community who were debating which church was true. Joseph himself described it as a time of religious revival, where the “Methodists, Presbyterians, and Baptists . . . were “in the midst of a war and tumult of opinions.” Joseph wrote that “I often asked myself, “What is to be done?” And after reading a powerful passage in the Bible (James 1:5) he retired to a grove of trees to pray.

While in prayer, he was overcome by a dark and powerful spirit, and then a pillar of light appeared exactly over his head, which was brighter than the noon-day sun. Smith recorded: “When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spoke unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other – “This is my beloved Son, hear Him.”

Now remember, this is the official version that is found in the Pearl of Great Price, is taught throughout the Church today, and is replicated in all of its manuals. The story goes on with Smith saying: “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages that stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered my heart that they were all wrong) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt.” (PoGP JS History 1:17-19)

In this official account Joseph Smith mentions his age (14), where he was living (Manchester), and that there was a great revival in the area.

The Nature of God: Exploring Claims and Inconsistencies

“When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spoke unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other – “This is my beloved Son, hear Him.”

When LDS prophet Gordon Hinckley said: “when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of all the ages,” he was referring (at least) to something Joseph supposedly learned that day on the make-up of God the Father – That he had a body of flesh and bones. We’re going to examine the veracity of this claim relative to what the Bible says about God and the inconsistencies to Smith’s accounts in the week to come.

Trinitarian View of God

But before we go to the phones I want to offset my focus on Smith fraud with one errant Trinitarian view related to this topic – it was brought to my attention by a brother last week. Trinitarians INSIST (and make everyone else insist) that God is three persons or beings that each have their own core center of consciousness. Their own person which have always existed. I have had well read Trinitarians describe these THREE’s premortal persons as distinct as an earthly father, with an earthly son and a third party representing the Holy Spirit. Got that? “Distinct beings possessing their own eternal core centers of consciousness.”

But whenever we speak of Jesus – the man – we speak of Jesus as the Son of God who, according to trinitarianism is a “distinct being possessing his own eternal core center of consciousness,” right? But when we turn to Matthew 1:18-20 we read the following:

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

If, as the Trinitarians ardently maintain, the Holy Spirit is a being or person, with his own “core center of consciousness” and it was this person or being that impregnated Mary, why is He not called the Son of the Holy Spirit but is instead (and properly I might add) called “the Son of God?” Where the LDS have really mucked up the make-up of God I would suggest that Trinitarianism has done no worse of a job. And that God is One – overshadowing Mary by HIS spirit, and with her conceiving gifting us with Emmanuel, God with us.

Reader Inquiries and Reflections

(beat) Let’s open up the phone lines: (801)

SPOT

From: dan

Subject: Shawn's Response To LDS's Book of Abraham Semitic Appropriation of Egyptian Texts

Message Body:

Here it is claimed that there is a way to resolve the obvious difficulties with Smith’s claims of having “translated” the Book of Abraham from Papyrii. Have you worked on any responses to this?

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml

All the way from our brother in Ireland: Dear Shawn.

This year in particular, attendance at regular Sunday services in Stakes all around Ireland has plummeted from over 100 on average, to below 60 on average compared to last year's figures.

The Bishopric have been trying to offload Callings to whoever attends on a regular basis. They've tried unsuccessfully on a number of occasions to saddle me with something, failing to see that the problem isn't me, the problem is either the Church, or how they've been told to execute leadership.

I'd be very interested to know what you think the biggest reason is for a 40%+ drop in people attending.

Much respect Sir.

-Niall.

PS – I know you've been secretly dying to know the Irish translation of your name: It's either "Seán Mac Chreaní", "Sean Mac an Chreaní", or "Seán Mac na Chreaní", depending on the context of its usage. You will now find falling to sleep much easier with this heavy burden eased from your shoulders.