Mormonism and Five Point Calvinism, Part 7

Examining Change in Faith and Belief Systems

LIVE FROM THE MECCA OF MORMONISM

• SALT LAKE CITY UTAH

This is Heart of the Matter, where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity, face to face.

Show 39 369 Five Point Calvinism Part VI
November 26th, 2013

And I’m your host Shawn McCraney. We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this ministry. May He be with you (and us) tonight.

Change and Stability in Faith

There exists an extremely fashionable attitude, amidst nearly every walk of life, that stability and unchangeableness is a virtue. We applaud men whose eyes are fixed on the North Star, so to speak, who, when all the rest of the world is falling apart, they stand undaunted. Fixed. Calvin was one. The fictional Javier another.

Those who approach life with less convention are called disparaging names. In politics they are known as “flip-floppers,” in philosophy they’re “wishy washy,” in Christianity we are labeled heretics (Mormonism prefers apostate). The reason for this is institutions – and the men and women who endorse them – fear change, fear uproar, and fear letting go of what they have worked hard to establish. To allow those who challenge the status quo, who question policies and doctrines and to allow them to otherwise go uncontested exposes all that have built the institution to scrutiny, derision, and worst of all, mutiny (or loss of control).

So traditions – right or wrong, religious and cultural – are typically upheld despite truth. Pastors, Reverends, Popes and prophets are typically guilty. And this is the case with Mormonism AND Christianity today. It was the case with 19 year old Joan of Arc, it’s why they killed Socrates, Jesus, James, Peter, and Paul. But while corporations continue to fire the rabble rousers, and politicians who rock the boat are assassinated, and Christian leaders excommunicate and label thinking people heretics, the value, the import, and the absolute necessity to overturn and examine everything will not fade from the minds of men. We will always have our Winston Smith’s.

In light of this, take a minute and consider these thoughts on the subject – especially relative to YOUR view of church and Christianity today:

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”
George Bernard Shaw

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The world we see that seems so insane is the result of a belief system that is not working. To perceive the world differently, we must be willing to change our belief system, let the past slip away, expand our sense of now, and dissolve the fear in our minds.”
William James

“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.”
Marcus Aurelius

“It is never too late to give up your prejudices.”
Henry David Thoreau

“The mind that opens to a new idea never returns to its original size.”
Albert Einstein

“Stay diagnostic even as you take action.”
Ronald Heifetz

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
Isaac Asimov

And finally, a definitive insight from the definitive King:

“If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Jesus

In Christianity – church, leadership, ministries – especially today, it is really tempting to build or create something and then to spend the rest of our lives defending and promoting IT – as IT becomes far more important than the relentless pursuit of truth. Pastors love their lifestyles – so they back off on saying whatever displeases the congregation, and like unfit parents, feed the children food void of God’s nutritious Word. If you are a seeker, whether Mormon or Catholic or Evangelical Christian don’t settle for this – life is too short and eternity to long.

Scripture Reading

Our text for tonight is interesting. It’s found in Luke 9. This is what it says beginning at verse:

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for

The Journey Through Samaria

So Jesus was preparing to go to Jerusalem and the route that He and the disciples were taking was going right through a Samaritan town. Jesus had sent messengers ahead of Him to get things ready for His passing through and already being sensitive and possibly thinking of themselves as second-class citizens to the Jews at Jerusalem, the Samaritans in this town were offended that Jesus was determined to head right to the City of David.

53 And they (the Samaritans) did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?”

In other words, being insulted (or possibly seeing that Jesus Himself had been insulted by the offended Samaritans), James and John (who were known as Sons of Thunder) wanted to vindicate Jesus' good name and character, and so, pulling from an Old Testament prophet, they wondered if they too ought to call down fire from heaven to wipe these guilty Samaritans out.

The Spirit of Revenge

A couple of things to consider with this. First, in both cases where fire came down from heaven and devoured people, Elijah did NOT call it down to perform such an act. With the priests of Baal He asked God to send fire down and consume the wood on the wetted altar, and in the case of the King and His men, all Elijah said was, "As surely as I am a man of God He will send fire down to consume these men."

The point is Elijah did NOT call down fire in a spirit of revenge or in an attempt to personally punish people. That was not the Spirit by which he operated. But in the case of James and John, their desire to call fire down was. And they asked Jesus if they could "call fire down from heaven to consume them."

Listen to what Jesus says in response:

55 But he (Jesus) turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

We see it today, don’t we? Imprecations and curses heaped upon others by believers in the name of God. Desires to see people consumed – to see the wicked, the insulters of Jesus, the reprobates burned alive by (or in) fire. Jesus says plainly to any with such desires,

“Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.”

The Quest for Greatness

What adds some insight to this event is the back story that occurs in the verses prior. Seven verses earlier we read that as the disciples were traveling toward Samaria,

(Luke 9:46) . . . there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

So prior to being insulted by the Samaritans and wanting to call down fire from heaven to consume them, there was a dispute among the twelve who would be greatest among them.

47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48 And said unto them, “Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.”

The Lord’s message seems to have been lost on these men (or at least John) because in the very next verse we read yet another account of him attempting to carve out some territory for themselves.

49 And John said, “Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.”

And then in the next verse Jesus said:

50 Yea, John, those who doeth noteth exactlieth aseth we doeth, yeah those who doeth not follow us with exactness forbid, and castigate, and refuse.

That was a made-up verse (in case you didn’t know). No, John forbade some guy from casting out devils in Jesus' name and forbid him from doing so because he didn’t follow them, and Jesus really said:

50 “Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”

It was with all of this being said that Jesus and his disciples entered into Samaria and James and John then asked

Lessons from Jesus' Disciples

Three issues were presented by His disciples: they were debating who would be greatest in the Kingdom; they forbade a man from doing things in Jesus' name because he wasn’t following them; and they wanted to call fire down from heaven to consume some people who would not accept them and the Lord.

Jesus answered each of them with three completely liberating messages. To the question of who would be greatest, Jesus held up a child. To their forbidding a man who was not following them to work in Jesus' name, He said leave him alone – if he’s not against me, he’s for me. And to their request to call down fire from heaven, he tells them they are being motivated by evil and not good, for, He says: “the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.”

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

Five Point Calvinism and Mormonism

Alright – we’re almost done exploring Five Point Calvinism summarized in the TULIP acronym as it relates to the founding of Mormonism. We’ve hit on Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and a quick summation of Irresistible Grace last week. What does Mormonism say about the Irresistible Grace idea? Where Five Point Calvinism basically defines irresistible grace as the Holy Spirit perfectly fulfilling His work in bringing all God’s elect to Him, Mormonism interprets God’s irresistible grace as the gifts (of grace) God bestows upon all humankind freely as a means to bring as many to Him as will come.

These “free graces or gifts” include a resurrected body of some sort, a Kingdom of some sort (unless you are like me, doomed to outer darkness), free agency because we all chose God’s original plan, and conscience (or what the LDS call the Light of Christ). So where Calvinism essentially teaches that God will bring forward to salvation all He has elected, Mormonism tends to suggest that all men were blessed with everything needed for men to choose Him. In Calvinism, God does the unmerited, unconditional electing. In Mormonism, God gives every man all the tools required to find Him (which pretty much means finding Mormonism).

Perseverance of the Saints

The final letter in the TULIP stands for Perseverance of the Saints. It is a very logical conclusion to the other four points and we might reword it as saying: Once saved, always saved. Calvinist Charlie Hodge says it this way: “The perseverance of the saints is to be attributed not to the strength of their love of God, nor to anything else in themselves, but solely to the free and infinite love of God.”

In other words, as another Christian commentator says: “You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ.” This view – whether a person is a Reformed believer (Calvinist) or not – is quite popular in the Body of Christ today. There’s a few reasons for this.

First, if salvation is NOT based on our righteousness, and is bestowed by grace through faith, most Christians ask, “how could salvation be lost?” It’s a reasonable question. And because of it, most Christians who are fairly well-read in the Bible agree with “once saved always saved,” or eternal security. But if salvation (meaning living with God after this life) is something that is NOT bestowed freely (as it is not in Mormonism, works must be done even to enter into their highest kingdom where God dwells), then it only makes sense that salvation/exaltation can be lost by and through the poor choices of the individual.

Now, there are a number of passages in scripture that intimate strongly that this final point of eternal security is true.

John 10:27-28 where Jesus said: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Philippians 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

John 6:47: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them…"

Calvinism vs. LDS Doctrines of Soteriology

Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So there it is. Calvinism in summary as compared with LDS doctrines of Soteriology. Let me sort of do a quick summary and then along the way offer some alternative views which are COMPLETELY biblical for your consideration. Ready?

Overview of Calvinism and Mormonism

Key Doctrines

(“Calvinism says . . .)

CALVINISM / MORMONISM

Man will not choose All people are
God on their own. born Children of
We are all spiritually God with heavenly
Dead. Parentage.

I would suggest that Calvinism presents a far better biblical picture of the truth in this first point than Joseph Smith’s Hellenistic fantasy that all human beings come from a pre-mortal existence and are all born God’s perfect children. Scripture is clear that humanity (and the earth) fell from His grace, and that all of us—since Adam—come into this world spiritually dead and therefore, as Jesus said, need to be born from above.

While I agree with the idea of Total Depravity (meaning none of us, on our own, would choose God) I believe that God has made Himself so apparent in so many ways to human beings (through nature, our conscience, His written law, His Son made flesh, the witness of believers and their lives around us) that all people capable of rational thought are fully equipped to know and see Him—if they choose. In other words, God has built Himself into this universe as a means to reach the spiritually dead and human beings are then placed in the position to either recognize aspects and elements of His existence (and either choose to respond to them or not). While hairsplitting in some ways, this perspective is neither completely Calvinist and it is certainly NOT LDS.

Election and Free Will

On to Point Number 2

CALVINIST MORMON
God elects some to Heavenly Father
salvation of His wants all to be
own will and saved by their
not due to anything own free will and
they have done. agency.

Of all five points this one is the most reprehensible to me and my understanding of the Word and our God.

We received this email from Curtis which says, in response to my asking: "Why would God (who is love) only predestinate some to salvation according to His own good pleasure (and not from ANYTHING the elect do) and not all?"

And then he quotes Proverbs 3:5-6 to me which says: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

The Curtis asks: “Let me turn that question around on you. Why would God NOT predestine people to destruction? And what scripture do you have to back that up?”

Ahhhhh . . . God is Love? Within Him there is no darkness at all? “For God so LOVED the WORLD? that His will is Good, not evil? That He is good, and not evil? I mean, from this question Curtis you are trying to get me to believe that love is pain and terror and remorse!

You know when we are covering LDS issues on air like this it is truly rewarding when an active HONEST latter-day saint calls in and exposes their theological heart. Same with the true Calvinist. I mean really? Really? Are you trying to suggest that the God we are to love and trust and look to purposefully created most people

God's Sovereignty and Human Free Will

to burn in hell forever? Have you gotten so twisted in your view of our loving creator that you actually believe that this is rational? It is in the face of stuff like this that I am not the least bit surprised men like Joseph Smith have stood up and said:

“No way,” and then created their own body of doctrine. But hear me clearly – does the Bible say God elects some to certain things? Of course it does. Is His will always accomplished? Abso-freakin-lutely. Will He elect (which I would equate to calling or choosing) some nations and people to perform certain things as a means to bring about His overall loving sovereign will? Obviously.

Can God possibly elect and choose some for certain things WHILE honoring free-will? Interestingly enough, I would say yes. Maybe I’m wrong, but because I believe He is a good God, and not a despot, not a fascist, that He honors freedom, and does not crush or control it. Now, I know that philosophically we would say this is an impossibility – either God makes things happen (and gets His way) OR He let’s things happen and doesn’t. But we are not talking about philosophy, we are talking about God and His sovereign and eternal perspective of things.

“In this, I do trust in the Lord God with all my heart and lean not to my own understanding,” Curtis. And without going into every nuance (and I know there are a lot of them) I would suggest that God is able to bring about His LOVING, GOOD sovereign will WHILE somehow honoring man’s ability to choose.

The Concept of Foreknowledge

How? His FOREKNOWLEDGE. Yes, he created all with certain attributes – like autonomous chess pieces. And yes, He allows them to move and act freely across the panoply of human existence. But by and through His foreknowledge, He will have His will accomplished. And His will is LOVING, REDEMPTIVE, and NEVER FAILS.

Consider . . .

1st Timothy 2:3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

Or

2nd Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So, where the LDS say, “it’s up to the individual,” and the Calvinist says, God controls it all, I would suggest both . . . and His will will be done in the end.

Points of Divergence

Point Number 3

Jesus atoned only Jesus atoned for for those God has elected to salvation.

Sorry, but again, Mormonism, in this specific area, wins. We’ve offered the passages to prove it.

The Role of the Holy Spirit

Next Point

The Holy Spirit will Human-kind has accomplish bringing been graciously all of God’s elect to gifted with all Him. the necessary “tools” to make it “back” to the Father.

On Irresistible Grace I have to side with Calvinism with a caveat. I agree, the Holy Spirit will accomplish bringing all Him but not just His elect. Yes, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. And we know from Paul in 1st Corinthians 12:3 that

“no man can

The Debate on Salvation: Calvinism and Mormonism

"No one can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." You do the math.

No, all are not elected, not all are sons and daughters, not all will come forth in the first resurrection of the dead and not all are saved from hell and/or the lake of fire. But God, who is love, and is Sovereign, and who so loved the world that He sent His Son to pay for the Sins of the Whole world, is, as Peter said, “longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Perseverance of the Saints

Finally, the last point, Perseverance of the Saints—CALVINISTS: None whom God has elected will be lost ever. MORMONISM: Through bad choices, many, “even the very elect” will be lost.

I would say, in light of scripture, that freewill reigns, and while believers redeemed could never lose their salvation, scripture is clear that we are free to walk from it. The interesting thing about both five-point Calvinism and Mormonism is that when their precepts are taken seriously and collectively, they lead, in both cases, to human beings having to prove themselves. We know this is true about Mormonism but ironically, it is the end result of Calvinism too. Five pointers are forever having to have to prove they are one of God’s elect. And like all “isms,” Calvinism ends up putting well-intentioned, God-fearing people, into bondage rather than setting them free.

Calls and Considerations

Let’s open up the phone lines: (801)

While the operators are clearing your calls, consider the following “bits O informacion.”

GRAPHIC

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace

GRAPHIC

Perseverance of the Saints (once saved always saved)

CALLS / EMAILS