LDS Sacrament Q&A

Heart of the Matter from Salt Lake City

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we try and get all people to walk toward the love of Jesus Christ. And I am Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Let’s have a prayer. PRAYER

Show 5B HOTM REDUX Tuesday September 3rd 2019 Calls and Comments about, The Sacrament Presentation

www.campuschurch.faith
TVAR – www.hotm.faith
www.exmormonfiles.com
www.talkingtomormons.com
www.checkmychurch.com

Today's Interactive Segment

This is the call-in part of HEART OF THE MATTER REDUX – following up from last night's core presentation and the phone lines are open – I really want to talk with you – about last night's show or anything else! Additionally, we have a number of comments from our online viewers which are going to help feed the flow of conversations between you and me.

But a couple of items first. I had the opportunity to interview Angela Kelly this afternoon and Seth and Wendy will begin posting it in the next day or so. Take the time to hear from a woman who . . . (SHAWN FILL IN AFTER INTERVIEW)

Additionally, we want to remind all of you that you can tune in live with us every Sunday – either for Milk at 10AM mountain or Meat at 2:30 Mountain time – and learn the Bible verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. from the fulfilled perspective. Just go to CAMPUSCHURCH.FAITH and either tune in live or pick a book we have covered and consider it on your own.

Available Resources

We also have a number of books available to you either in hardcopy, PDF, and some on audiobook. Go to www.hotm.faith and scroll down to the bottom to check them out. We are constantly working on making more things readily available to you – know that.

One of those things is something we are calling the TVAR – the Transversional Apostolic Record. What this is, is another translation/version (if you will) of the New Testament. I give you a money-back guarantee (though they won’t be for sale for another four years or so) that this transversion of the Apostolic Record will rock your world of study. Guarantee it. So pray for us in the development of this version. If you go to the website and click on the menu icon TVAR there are three videos you can see explaining what it is all about.

Finally, I want to promote to you three important ministries that I endorse fully but have zero input on what they do, how they operate, or what they choose to put out in terms of content. I say this because of the errant conjecture made by people otherwise. It’s NOT so.

The first are video interviews with former Mormons who have come to know the Lord. The website is www.exmormonfiles.com. This site is so important because it has former LDS people sitting with Bishop Earl and sharing how they transitioned from Mormonism to Jesus. Hundreds of interviews.

The second ministry is Talking to Mormons.com. What a resource that is both informative, entertaining, and really really accurate. It's another tool that speaks to the LDS issue relative to the Bible and what it says – through animation. There is a lot there. Have you noticed that I recommend these sites because they are reaching TO LDS people with the message of Jesus? That is the message folks – and these ministries do not get sidetracked with other junk. They are both owned and operated by former LDS devotees who have a heart for the LDS plight and are sensitive to the means by which they present the truth. www.talkingtomormons.com

Finally, a site I love that was established to help people vet the churches that advertise themselves as biblically Christian we have www.checkmychurch.com. This site is dedicated to evaluating the practices and teachings of Christian churches and ministries – primarily at this point in Idaho and Utah. This is a COURAGEOUS ministry run by Sarah and Joe – husband and wife. They have seen and been in many expressions of Christianity and they really know the score but give every Pastor the full opportunity to explain their ways and means of playing church.

(Playing church is my term, not Check my church’s) but they are out to help inform and protect individuals from wolves in sheep’s clothing, from religious abuses, from ecclesiastical manipulations – and it is really a great service to the faith. CHECK IT OUT – www.checkmychurch.com

OKAY . . .

THE TVAR

So last night I talked about the general topic of the Lord's supper or communion, the Eucharist and then specifically what the LDS call the sacrament. Tonight on our follow-up I want to take calls (on any subject – 801)

Comments and Feedback

590-8413) And to read through the comments from our online audience:

The generally supportive comments are from:

Matt Houtz said, "Keep it up Shawn. You’re changing hearts and spreading the real good news." ExMormon4 ChristAlone Wrote: "So excited for this new format." Dean Medcalf said, "Good presentation loved it." And finally, Adnan said, "Thank you Shawn for your continued pursuit and teaching of Truth. I've grown a lot in my walk and faith by hearing your teachings from CAMPUS and HOTM. In some instances, I've grown by testing the things you teach and trying to find fault in it; (although it often ends with my realizing there is a lot more logic and Truth in what you taught, than what I thought I knew!)." Thank you Adnan, Dean, ExMormon4Christalone, and Matt.

Perspectives on Communion

Then PROCOMMUNION COMMENTS were from: Patrick: "The communion is important to me. Not a law or commandment. Christ IN ME the hope of glory!"

J. Huff Humble: "The sacrament to me is symbolic and a beautiful practice to honor Christ and develop self-mastery! I am born again. I take the sacrament because it keeps me closer to Jesus Christ. I’ve studied martial arts and the power of music all my life. The sacrament is like learning a kata or fine-tuning a piano. It is a way of expressing my love to Jesus Christ and it incidentally teaches me self-mastery!"

And Moira in England wrote: "Just wanted to say Shawn, that the sacrament to me is a wonderful gift! Regardless of denomination as I am a convert to the church. Therefore, I can appreciate both sides. This act to me, restore one's determination to serve Jesus Christ and gives, the participant a newness of strength! Not that the act, itself gives you a physical change. But it's in the spiritual, that we are changed! Invigorated, set apart to him, for a better word. Of course, this is all based on my personal experience, and in no way is meant to offend anyone. Thank you Shawn, your show is a pleasure to watch! and I have learned much. I know Jesus Christ is my Savior! And that he loves me, and I love him! With all my heart. Bless you! Shalom."

Interpretations of Sacrament

And 1325TEA: "Shawn, correct me if I am wrong but all the scriptures point to unleavened bread. Not bread with leavening agents such as yeast. Yeast representing sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. causing the bread to rise and become puffed up. Pride being a form of sin. And the fruit of the vine being wine to represent his blood. Thereby partaking of the body without sin (unleavened bread) and blood for atonement (from the vine of David) to help us remember & pause to reflect on what Christ has done. I believe the sacrament should be continued as the early church practiced, but not necessarily obsessed over. Nor should it be ritualistic or for us to go through the motions. What Christ wants more is a broken heart, contrite spirit with sincere repentance and to love one another. Yes, unfortunately, the sacrament has been altered in overkill mode by various denominations. Clearly the wrong sacrament is the application of wonder bread and tap water." So, thank you Patrick, Mr. Humble, Moira, and 1325TEA – love these insights and realize your position as viable and good.

General Comments and Criticisms

Duane wrote: "JS could not have had the HS, the HS was the promise to the Elect UNTIL the coming (redemption)."

strongallalong89: "When they roasted the lamb, were there certain 'don’t go there' rules established or was it a no-holds-barred kind of roast?"

Criticisms and Counterarguments

AND THEN FINALLY TO THE CRITICISMS Storminmormn6 wrote: "Out of the 'Cave' of Mormonism straight into another 'Cave' of Religion. Please open your eyes and see that falsehood of religion. Edit: I was born and raised Mormon if you couldn’t tell by my name. I am however, educated and now Atheist."

And then we come to one Michael Lee and his FIVE comments. Let’s work through them one by one: Michael Lee #1: "There is a significant problem with Shawn's hypothesis. The second temple of Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD but the Gospel of John was written after this event. I would say that most scholars would date the Gospel of John to around 90 AD. (There are very good reasons for supposing that which I can share if required). The Gospel of John, as I am sure you are aware, demonstrates that even after the second temple was destroyed Christians were still teaching that we ought to participate in the Eucharist." In fact,

The Eucharist and Material Religion

Most scholars argue that the way in which the Gospel of John talks about the Eucharist makes it clear that the author was combating Proto-Gnosticism (which denies "material religion"). Furthermore: the Book of RevelationA symbolic prophecy fulfilled in 70 A.D.—not a prediction of future global events. was written around 95 AD and it's very clear from this text that the author did not think that Christ had returned; quite the opposite in fact. Shawn's hypothesis that Christ has already returned is completely unscriptural; and his teaching regarding the Eucharist goes against the commandment of the Lord himself. Shawn's antinomianism is contradicted on almost every page of the New Testament.

Baptismal Practices Across Denominations

Michael Lee #2.
The Orthodox accept as valid any baptism performed in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. The same is true of Catholics, Anglicans and Copts. They also recognise each others Eucharist as valid. You can't extend your experience of Mormonism to Christendom as a whole. Just because you have been controlled by the Mormon church doesn't mean that you are being controlled by other religious organisations.

Understanding the Eucharist

Michael Lee #3
The Eucharist was understood in basically the same way by all Christians until the Reformation. So, as usual, we have the Protestants to thank for creating disharmony where there had been basic harmony for nearly 1600 years. Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Anglicans, etc., all believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It's clear from the NT that the early church regarded the Eucharist as central; and even from post-NT literature this is clear (look at the letters of Ignatius of Antioch where he uses Eucharistic imagery). Shawn's reformation is a deformation that calls into question the providence of God (since God has allowed almost all Christians to be radically mistaken about what Christianity is from very early on until the present day).

Michael Lee #4
What exactly is wrong with receiving the Eucharist in order to keep oneself "holy"? All of the NT writers make it abundantly clear that we have to follow the commandments. Love of God and of neighbour is not something we can dispense with.

Michael Lee #5
I find it frustrating that you haven't noticed yet that you yourself are creating a new denomination (i.e., a new interpretation of the New Testament) and that you are teaching people how to live (antinomianism). You want to "free" people from the denominations in order to convince them that your interpretation of Christianity (your denomination) is correct. Christianity is the "material religion" par excellence because unlike other religions we believe in the incarnation (which can be literally translated as "enfleshment") of the Logos. As Paul says: "Christ is the image of the invisible God". God created matter; therefore matter is good. The Bible tells us over and over again that the universe manifests the glory and beauty of God: something of God is perceived through creation (through matter). Why exactly would God want to do away with "material religion" when matter is one of the modes through which he is manifest? And, indeed, God is manifest in the life, deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. and resurrection of Christ, as the NT makes abundantly clear. Shawn: this is simply Neo-Gnosticism.