Live from the Mecca of Mormonism

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., Where we try and get all people to walk toward the love of Jesus Christ.

And I am Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Let’s have a prayer.

PRAYER

HOTM Redux – Yoked

Tuesday Calls and Responses September 24th 2019

Next week, right here on HOTM, we will be airing our two-part interview with Angela Kelly – Part one on Monday night, September 30th and Part II on Tuesday night, October 1st. Angela is a political activist who focuses on polygamy here in the state of Utah. To me she presents the most cogent reasons WHY polygamy ought to be illegal – I challenge you all to tune right on in!

Let’s open out phone lines 801 950-8413. Call in with any questions or comments from last night's show or any other topic you are interested in. We LOVE first time callers. From some posts from last night's show, “the Yoke is on you!”

Reflections on Burdens

indigochild79 wrote: I couldn't agree more….I'm glad not to be alone in these lines of thinking.

CHARLIE said: The yoke that is around their neck should have a big sign on at the church.

3 Itty Bitty Piggies: Good analogy. It IS more than a little hard to Walk Toward His Love or follow Him anywhere when equally yoked with heavy burdens which Men place upon you and force onto you to share with others. Truth shall set you free.

Thomas Freestone: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NIV Confess your sins and Jesus will do the purifying of your heart!!!

And MH wrote some prose, saying “sex drugs and rock and roll porn whatever else – those are all distractions. And you have a certain amount of time gifted to you and you can use it for eternally valuable things or you can waste it getting stuck on being pushed and pulled around by all of the things that impulses and human nature and even other peoples human nature at times can push and pull and influence you to do. So do you have to never drink another drop of alcohol to be "saved" I mean… I think Jesus saves Do you have to never watch porn again to be saved? Again… I think Jesus saves The thing is… I think Jesus saves And.. Once you're saved Once you really accept that salvation Then its about – what are you going to use this time and body you’ve been gifted with to do, and what are you going to take with you when you depart? There's a lot of things you cant take with you. But God has a plan and purpose for people who are His. And all of this stuff you're talking about… The drugs sex and rock and roll and whatever else.. They're distractions deceptions Their sole purpose is to waste your time So to me its more like… The less time you spend on that stuff And the more you look to God for guidance and trust and walk by faith The more you walk that path that He has for you and in that plan He has for you The more you seek Him and focus on Him and what Hes guiding you to do with the gift of time He's gifted you with… The more eternally valuable things you do And the more the better I mean… He has a plan and purpose for you Then he helps you do it Then he rewards you for doing it after you depart this earth What if you knew Jesus was up there and could see everything you ever did What if you knew God IS love Open arms waiting for anyone to look up to Him And He has a purpose for you already laid out Knows exactly which way you should go and what you should do And He could see right through you – like that white lie you told somebody to look "nice"… Or that way you presented yourself or things to somebody to look "ok" … I think God sees your heart… And all of that other junk is some surface games people play Everybodys at least a little guilty of it Because everybody protects ego I guess I believe Jesus did what no other human can do And now the holy spirit can dwell in you if youll let him, and guide you To me The more important issue

The Debate on Dating New Testament Texts

Is – not falling for the various idols and forms of idolatry that get in the way. I don't think people know everything that word means in the Greek.. But that's another topic. If any of this does not square with the Bible – please correct me. I'll listen to what you have to say. I recognize people can know more than me sometimes. Just show me scripture in context is all I ask. Peace.

We also have some comments coming in from Michael Lee – in the past. The most recent says in part:

I do not think that Mr. McCraney has responded adequately to the criticism regarding the dating of certain NT texts which clearly and unequivocally contradict his belief in Full PreterismThe belief that all biblical prophecy—especially “end times”—was fulfilled by 70 A.D. More. I don’t respond to Michael Lee online because he has shown his true colors in the past and there just is no inclination or time to be honest. But I will respond here.

Michael is orthodox – and so he needs at least some of the books of the Bible to have been written after 70AD. He cites scholarship as if it is unified on the matter but it's not and even if the majority of modern scholarship sides with post 70AD dating that does not deter me in the least – consensus, even among scholars, has and will continue to be wrong. But my real reason for my stance is the internal evidence in Revelation – which Brother Lee dismisses because it conflicts with what he wants to believe. Simple as that.

Subjectivity in Faith and Belief

And aren’t we all that way to a great extent – we use evidences we want to find to support our views? I admit that I am also susceptible to this ever human trait, and this makes my assertions fallible – which is why I believe the faith is entirely subjective. Michael continues, saying:

“Shawn dismissed the consensus among scholars on the dating of these texts with a proverbial wave of the hand. But that just isn't good enough, I'm afraid.” And then he adds

“For Shawn's case to be convincing he needs to establish that all these texts are dated before 70 AD- an impossible task, I should think.”

The Challenge of Dating Texts

Dating is itself an impossible task, Michael – either way. That is why I use the Bible to reveal timestamps. And when Jesus says that all of the signs he shared with his Apostles would occur within a generation, and that some standing there would see the coming of the Son of Man, and that the apostles themselves would not get to all the cities of Israel before he would return, I don’t care about dating hypothecations. You will notice I haven’t cited any SCHOLARS to support my views? You are the one who loves scholars. I love the word. And therein lies the difference of opinion.

In the end he adds a half apology, saying:

“I regret losing my temper at Shawn's provocations; but I have no qualms about continuing to question his beliefs.”

The way he phrases this – “that He regrets losing his temper at MY provocations,” says volumes about Michael’s current views of things.

Not, “I am sorry for calling you really hurtful names,” nor please Shawn, forgive me, just that “he regrets losing his temper at my provocations.”

So let me try and do it better:

Michael,

Please forgive me for provoking you. I am sorry and was wrong. You are my brother in Christ and we seek the same God. I do not mean to cause you so much personal anguish when I attack organized religion. Truly. Please know that my attacks are only on the institutions and the bondage I believe they heap on most people. You are personally free to embrace whatever you wish as I am sure you are much closer to the throne of God than I will ever be as a practitioner of Orthodoxy. I pray God’s abundant blessings upon you and yours. All in Jesus name.

Okay – let’s move on, shall we?

PHONES?

If not, take a look at this spot if you would:

Run Talking to Mormons Spot here

PHONES? NO?

Got an email from brother Curtis W which says:

Reflecting back upon my decades in Mormonism, I never heard the word "surrender." Why? Mormonism is all about "perfecting the saints, redeeming the dead, proclaiming the gospel" and returning with honor, personal worthiness, and priesthood duty. I don't think once I ever heard the words,

Surrender to Christ

"Surrender unto Christ."

Have you ever met anyone in Mormonism that can fulfill what's required to achieve exaltation? Have you ever encountered someone keeping all the commandments? Not I. Post this personal question to an LDS member: What sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. have you repented of and never repeated? I bet their answer would be "nothing" if they are honest.

Curtis makes such great points that are so firmly established in the biblical narrative. The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit. Curtis is talking about coming to the Lord waving the white flag to personal righteousness and perfection. To say I am a sinner. I surrender to you and your power not my own – I can’t do it.”

Reflection on Mormonism

Within Mormonism surrender is not part of the weekly vocabulary. Fantastic point Curtis. Thank you for sharing it.

CATHIE wrote

Hi Shawn, I went to breakfast with my friend this morning. She has left the Mormon church many years ago. She lives in the same building I live in. She had gone last week to play cards with some of the other ladies who play every week, and one lady who is Mormon brought a picture to show all of them. It was a picture of Joseph Smith and the caption said “Joseph Smith suffered as much as Jesus Christ”!

She was so upset by it as she is Christian and was very hurt by this foolish statement. I am saddened by this as my daughter and granddaughter are so steeped in that religion. I came out of it 14 years ago and am free in Christ Jesus. And I’m so grateful to be out from under the burden of that religion. How terribly sad to have such a statement being taught in that religion. It hurts my heart for those poor duped souls who will buy that garbage. What an insult to our dear Savior and what He suffered on the cross for the sins of the world.

And she ends by saying that Jesus is here everything. What Cathie writes is kind-of the point to this show and ministry – to help people know the power, the freedom and the beauty of Jesus becoming everything in your life – through surrender to Him. I speak against the Org-RELS (organized religions) as a means to address bondage – but again – whatever.

The real question remains – Is Jesus your everything? Have you been emancipated from the bondage in the human experience by surrendering to Him on a daily basis? If you want to be truly free, consider what Cathie said here. Because I can guarantee two things to you all tonight: If it's Jesus you surrender to, you will be free, and if it's anything else, you will be in bondage.

End Times Beliefs

OKAY . . .

Hi Shawn I’ve heard you say that God already returned to earth in 70 A.D. That Jesus told his apostles what would happen and it did happen the way he said it would. He returned after the resurrection. Dispensationalists believe we are living in the end of time/age now on earth where everything going on now refers to the New Testament. The Mormons teach this also and a lot of people believe this. Most people can’t wait for him to return because this world is so evil etc. The Mormons teach this and so many videos on YouTube say he is coming soon referring to the New Testament. Dispensationalists say this also. Please explain what will happen in the future with this world? What can I expect will happen with this world and us who live on earth now????? When will God come and live on earth for 1000 years with us?? Susan

Okay. Susan. Let me try and explain the way to see this and the reasons why I see the study of End Times the way I do.

And now to a real HEART OF THE MATTER EMAIL ALL THE WAY FROM ENGLAND AND A SISTER NAMED KATE.

Kate Blease

Tue, Sep 17, 3:42 PM (7 days ago)

From England!

My name is Kate, I'm a 42yr old ex-Mormon English woman and I'd like to tell you a little about my "story" and ask for guidance. I was raised Mormon with a very devout father who tried his best and I'm the eldest of 4 girls. Between the ages of 3 and 7 my active Mormon grandfather sexually abused me. When it was discovered he was disfellowshipped and we stopped seeing him for a time. I found out later

A Personal Journey Through Faith and Struggle

that the reason he wasn't ex'ed for it was because he'd already been ex'ed once for adultery and it's a twice and you're out for good policy which they didn't want for him (he was the scout leader and the draughtsman on our new Chapel and everybody loved him).

On Christmas day the same year, he came round to ask for forgiveness, which my dad granted, much to my distress. He abused me again that day and went on to do the same thing for another 5 years and this time he did it to two of my little sisters also. I was mad and became quite a rebel, was smoking and drinking by 13 and I gave up on church mainly because I couldn't keep the rules and I developed mental illnesses.

By 2001 I was a car wreck with an alcohol problem and a mind that was out of control and I was completely alone (it's funny how Mormons abandon people when they're sinning even though that's who the Lord Jesus came to save). One day in November I was at my lowest and I felt strongly to pick up the BOM. I read and read like never before hoping for a burning in the bosom, but what I got at the end of that day was salvation. I remember it like it was yesterday – the pure love of Jesus flowed through me and in an instant I was forgiven and totally changed. I had real Godly sorrow, the pure tears of repentance and I knew the Holy Spirit was with me in a new way.

The Struggle With Religious Beliefs

I still believed in the church though because I'd never doubted it was true. I figured if all the Mormons I knew could trust in JS without doubt, I must too. So, I went back to church, but I only lasted 3 months. I became pious and judgmental because of the rules I was keeping, even though I knew it wasn't by my will I'd given up smoking and drinking, it was purely God in me. I've no strength or willpower on my own and never have, but I forgot and became proud. I assumed all the people in church had had the same salvation experience as me but no one seemed to know what I was talking about when I described it.

All I wanted to do was talk about Jesus but church didn't do that, and I left every Sunday deflated about it. I started smoking and drinking again and I felt like the Spirit had left me. I became quite mentally unwell and was hospitalised for months at a time over a 4 yr period. I basically couldn't cope without the closeness to God I'd once enjoyed. I was restored in 2007, and once again felt forgiven and loved by Jesus, but again it only lasted 3 months before I had a drink and a cig, and felt lost again.

Wrestling with Personal Demons

At this time I still believed that the spirit moved in and out depending on behaviour, so I was furious with myself for abandoning God and breaking the word of wisdom. I felt as Mephistopheles did in Dr Faustus. And she quotes from Faust

I had a big breakdown, with suicide attempts and self-harm because I despised myself. My dad was stake president at the time, but as soon as I wasn't attending church, both my parents again abandoned me. In the hospital was a nurse who was a Christian and she was the first to tell me Mormonism isn't the real gospel. My problem was that if it wasn't true then neither was God. I became atheist for a few months and then turned to new-age "spirituality" but I couldn't get rid of the thought that Jesus is real.

A few years ago, I wanted to prove Mormonism false and through YouTube started watching your show. I'd never read the Bible but bought one. When you showed through the scriptures that the Holy Spirit is with the believer forever and that the saving experience I'd had wasn't going to be taken away I jumped for joy.

Challenges in Rebuilding Faith

My problem now is that I don't have the Godly love for people I once did when first saved. I'm really worried that if God restores me again to full fellowship the same thing will happen again, and I'll be back to pridefully comparing socks. I pray but I've lost my close relationship with Jesus. Until I watched your show I didn't know much about non LDS Christianity

Reflections on Faith and Personal Struggles

I don't go to a church and don't trust religion but I love Jesus with my whole heart. I still have mental health issues but nothing like it used to be and I'm terrified of going back to that place. I drink beer and smoke pot sometimes and think I've grieved the Holy Spirit so much He has given up on me.

Am I still saved Shawn? I've lived sinfully now for years and I'm worried I'm like Esau and have lost everything.

Anyway, thanks so much for all you do, your videos are really appreciated and have helped me enormously to undo most of the Mormon teachings in my brain.

Blessings, my brother in Christ. I love you.

Upcoming Debate in Salt Lake

Hey, before we go tonight, here in Salt Lake, on Thursday October 3 at 7PM at the University of Utah James White, a man who likes to debate with people who think differently than he does, will be debating a man who certainly thinks differently than he does, Atheist Dan Ellis of Godless Rebelution.

Personal Thoughts on the Debate

Now, we have had both men on Heart of the Matter in the past, and this debate puts my heart in a bit of a vice. On the one hand, I related to James White because he is a man of faith – although I disagree with his Reformed views and his general way of dealing with people who differ with him. On the other hand, I personally like Dan Ellis as a person though I don’t agree of course with His atheism. What to do?

Honestly, the way I see it, if God is rightly described by the Calvinists in every way that they see Him (I agree with some of the things) then I would be a confirmed agnostic because I simply cannot understand such a God nor could I worship such. And since James White is convinced that God IS such a God, I think I relate more with Dan Ellis than James as strange as it is for a Christian to day.

In any case, Thursday night, October 3rd, 7PM at the University of Utah.