John 15:16 Bible Teaching

Welcome.

We are in John 15 and picking it up at verse 16.

Before that let’s pray
Let’s sing the word of God set to music (or at least listen to it) and then after a few minutes of silence welcome come back and get into the Word.

PRAYER
MUSIC
REFLECTION

John 15.16
January 11th 2015
Milk
Okay.

We left off with Jesus instructing His chosen eleven.

It is one day before He will enter His passion and He is teaching His apostles everything He wants them to know after having worked alongside Him in ministry for three years.

A few weeks ago He likened them to branches growing out of Him the vine and explained that as true branches they would bear fruits of love.

We’ve talked about this love and the some ideas around it pretty extensively over the last few weeks.

He will continue to touch on it over the next few verses but this time I am not going to discuss the topic as much seeing we have already done so prior.

So let’s continue to hear what the Lord Jesus has to say to these eleven – verse 9:

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Okay, back to verse 16 which admittedly will take a bit of time to properly address because it is so riddled with misinterpretation.

I mean, the passage lends to all sorts of arguments for the existence of much that is done in Christianity today – Catholicism, denominationalism, Mormonism – all use this passage as a support for their take on authority to operate in the church today.

So let’s try our best to sort through it all and examine the meaning of Jesus words here as He says to His eleven:

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you and ordained you.

This is the line and these are the words in question – chosen and ordained.

Biblically speaking chosen and ordained have tremendous presence. Looking back to the Old Testament we CANNOT get away from the fact that God has chosen specific people to do certain things and that ordination – laying hands on the head in the process to further along specific priestly authority – was definitely part of the Old Testament economy.

I would strongly suggest (and will prove) that this is not the case any longer – no matter how much people want it to be and no matter how much time and attention has gone into making it seem like this is how God continues to “work.”

In other words I believe God continues to work but in spite of Man and not because of Man.

So allow me to briefly hit on some of the current approaches men and women use in their attempts to replicate being chosen and being ordained.

Catholicism, who claim a literal authority from Peter on down, lay hands and choose others through a rather elaborate system of vetting and qualifications.

A candidate for the Catholic priesthood is first encouraged to get involved at their parish. Before they ever think about going to college or to the seminary, it’s a good idea to get started helping out at your parish.

Priests-to-be must be practicing Catholics in good standing for at least five years and actively involved in their area for two.
Then the candidate must go to college. It can just be seminary which is eight years long but if a person has a bachelor’s degree this time is cut down to four years of seminary.
If a person chooses to go to college they must use this time to attend retreats, help other students, and connect with your new parish or diocese.
Once college is done apply to a seminary.
You apply through your diocese or through the religious order you have embraced.

This process usually includes a bunch of questions about yourself and your desire to be ordained to the priesthood.

It is important to excel in seminary school (which will be made apparent in a moment).

After seminary graduation obtain an appointment as a deacon.
(which is like doing full time priesthood on a limited basis).

This is a trial period. More vetting.

Finally, receive a call from the “Bishop.”

If the Bishop does not call you to “holy Orders” you DO NOT have a vocation in the priesthood.

Pass the background test – which are becoming more and more strident.

Take your vows – which are specific to the order of the priesthood you have chosen to pursue and to what you have been chosen for, and have the Bishop ordain you.

Then obtain a position as a priest with a specific parish. Once the bishop calls you to Holy Orders, your diocese will give you placement to get started.

In some cases, you may be asked to relocate.

I will add here that on a blog by a priest I read the following:
“Once you’re through the process, it’s all about remaining obedient and celibate to God.”

Mormonism has taken these elements and, claiming that God restored a priesthood power to the earth through Joseph Smith, claims that the choosing of individuals to certain offices comes by direct revelation to the holders of this priesthood (give to its founder) and that the authority to exercise it comes by and through the Old Testament practice of ordaining others by and through the laying on of hands, which passes both authority and power to fulfill callings and offices through to others.

Ordination through most other established denominations include some or most of these Catholic or LDS factors along the way and to some extent or another.

While we know that God certainly chooses specific people groups, nations, and individuals to accomplish His desires, we also know that this choosing is not based on Him loving or respecting some more that others but I would suggest that, knowing all things, He actually uses all things to bring about His good will.

This would be the case of the apostles and is the reason Jesus says here in verse 16 –

“You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you.”

The topic of ordination continues to be extremely controversial.

Recently there was a brief witch-hunt to get me actually “excommunicated” from the Utah church because I said I had not been ordained by Calvary chapel.

I was not. But I was ordained by two brothers who graduated from Calvary Chapel which they thought was necessary at the time (and I thought comical).

In any case when it comes to ordination many people look to the New Testament to support their pet view.

Rarely are these appeals exhaustive but generally they include pointing out single verses (like verse 16 here) and using them to build their case.

Before talking about ordination in the early Christian church I want to point out several things which are biblical facts:

First of all, the idea of being called, chosen or ordained is lost when we look at example from Jesus own life.

In Mark 9 Jesus had certainly called His twelve but we then read:

John saying, “Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.”

Automatically we discover the presence of a free flowing network of believers being moved by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Himself pushing back from John’s expectations that Old Testament calling and ordination from them or the Lord was required.

Additionally, and when it comes to who can work in the vineyard Paul says in Galatians 3:27-29

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I know Paul also said this about women speaking in church later but those things had to do with culture. If we are all one in Christ, if we are all saved by grace through faith and not ordinances or rights or proper lineage, if we are all priests and priestesses serving in the body with Christ as our High Priest, all the cultural stuff applied at that time to keep the peace between the Jews and incoming gentiles is lost today.

Get over it.

The real question today is NOT whether women can be ordained (which is such a foolish argument because priesthood is done and because we are all one in Christ) the question that remains is whether ordination is a viable New Testament construct.

I mean right here Jesus does tell His apostles that He has both chosen them and ordained them.

This really gets the religionist organizations excited –and has allowed them to establish all sorts of religious institutions as a result.

But we might also ask what was there a reason Jesus called these twelve and then we might ask why didn’t they continue to call others (and ordain others) as they were being killed off?

I mean James the Greater was martyred around 44 AD by Herod in Jerusalem, why do we not see Him being replaced with another ordained apostle? And on and on and on as they were wiped out one by one?

Because Jesus chose His own apostles, Jesus trained them, and they were all expected to do a few things as His chosen and elected ones –

They were to teach what He had taught them.
They were to witness of His resurrection which they were personal witnesses of, and they were chosen to give their lives for the witnesses they each gave.
Additionally, a few of them were moved to write instructions to the early church as the Holy Spirit brought all things to their remembrance.
Finally, eleven of them were called and ordained to go out into the highways and byways and share the fact that Jesus HAD come to the House of Israel and to accept this on faith (prior to His return with judgment) and one of them was called and ordained to take this message to the other sheep which were NOT of the House of Israel fold – Paul to the Gentiles.

We can continue to look at the topic of ordination from a number of different perpectives but I want to examine the biblical language itself.

The question that we are really asking is “Does the New Testament use language that suggests that there is a category of individuals with special religious privileges that is “unavailable to ordinary believers?”

Here are some modern definitions of the terms ordain and ordination.

Does the New Testament support this Webster definitions?

Under ordain . . .

The Oxford Dictionary says:
make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on
to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority (Merriam-Webster)
Under ordination we read:
the action of ordaining or conferring holy orders on someone (Oxford American Dictionary)
Today we view ordination as an actual process where individuals are consecrated, that is, “set apart as special clergy to perform various religious rites and ceremonies.”
Following are some verses selected from the King James Version where the word ordain is used. Because ordain is used we are lead to believe that how Webster defines ordain and ordination that this is what is happening.

If we substituted the word ordain in these passages with chose, or elected, or picked
Our impressions of what was actually happening would change.

In other words, by applying the word ordain to these passages we are given an illusion that authority to priestly duties (as Webster and Oxford defines them) is being bestowed.

Here’s what I mean:

Mark 3:14
“And he ordained (??????? / epoiese / G4160 / to do, make; to work) twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:…
Without a doubt, Mark 3:14-15 describes a special moment—verse fifteen says that that the twelve were “to have power to heal sickness and to cast out devils.”
But we are probably mistaken if we associate this text with our contemporary understanding of the word ordination.

The verb translated as ordained in the KJV is very common in the Greek NT— it occurs 576 times!

In the KJV this word is most often translated as do or make. In other words the Greek word itself does not imply anything special— Jesus simply made twelve to be with him.

Most English translations use something other than ordained in this verse

For example, the New KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV, NET and others – says that He “appointed” twelve
CEV – He “chose” twelve of them
NLT – He “selected” twelve
Bible in Basic English – He “took twelve” to be with him
Douay-Rheims – “He made that twelve should be with him
Young’s Literal Translation – “he appointed” twelve
Parallel texts of this passage all use common words to describe the ordaining of the disciples that Mark describes.

For example Matthew 10:1 KJV – And when he had called (??????????????? / proskalesamenos / G4341 / to call, summon) unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Luke 6:13 KJV – And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose (??????????? / eklexamenos / G1586 / to choose) twelve, whom also he named apostles;…
Luke 9:1 KJV – Then he called (?????????????? / sygkalesamenos / G4779 / to call together) his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
John 6:70 KJV – Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen (?????????? / exelexamen / G1586 / to choose) you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Add in that in Luke 10 we read that the “power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils” was not limited to the twelve but was also given to seventy as it says in verse 1:

Luke 10:1 KJV – After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come…
Luke 10:9 KJV – And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luke 10:17 KJV – And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Certainly the twelve had a unique relationship with Jesus, but Mark 16:15-18 makes it clear that the power given to them is available to any who are His by belief.

Listen to what scripture says:

Mark 16:15-18 KJV – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
None of these examples support the Catholic nor the LDS idea that the powers given to the twelve were Jesus conferring “holy orders” on them or in any way elevating what they could do apart from others.

The language of Matthew 23:8-13 perfectly teaches principles of equality, saying:

“But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
So let’s look at our verse here in John 15:16

John 15:16 KJV – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained (????? / etheka / G5087 / to put, make, appoint) you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
The verb translated as ordained here in the KJV is very common in the Greek NT and occurs 96 times!

It is most frequently translated in the KJV as lay, put, lay down, make, and appoint – very ordinary words.

In other words NOTHING in the language suggests that the chosen were ordained in the Old Testament/Catholic/LDS. Denominations or sacramental sense of the word.

Most other versions actually translate this text with language that reflects the ordinariness of the original language.

So again, reading verse 16 in other translations we find Jesus saying:
NKJV, NIV, ESV, RSV – I chose you and appointed you
NASB, ASV – I chose you, and appointed you
Douay-Rheims – I have chosen you; and have appointed you
NLT, HCSB – I chose you. I appointed you
CEV – I chose you and sent you out
NCV – I chose you. And I gave you this work:
Young’s Literal Translation – chose out you, and did appoint you
Another proof text that the “ordination fiends use to support this act of playing church is Acts 1:22.

In the passage Peter has made a decision – prior to the falling of the Holy Spirit to guide them – to call another person to replace Judas who had killed himself.

So he says, speaking of what he suggested they get a person who,

“Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained (???????? / genesthai / G1096 / to become, be, be born, be created) to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
As with the previous texts, the ordained in the KJV translation of Acts 1:22 is translated from a very common Greek word — it occurs 676 times in the NT! Most versions translate it as become.
NKJV, NASB – one of these must become a witness (with us) of his resurrection.
NLT – Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness
NIV – one of these must become a witness
ESV, RSV – one of these men must become with us a witness
NCV – a man must become a witness with us
HCSB – it is necessary that one become a witness with us
Bible in Basic English – one will have to be a witness
Douay-Rheims – one of these must be made a witness
Young’s Literal Translation – one of these to become with us a witness
They did NOT ordain this selected replacement for Judas (Matthias) they simply said this person would become one of them.
Not giving up, ordination fiends use Acts 14:23 to support their claims – this time the passages are speaking of ordaining elders and says:
Acts 14:23 KJV – And when they had ordained (??????????????? / cheirotonesantes / G5500 / to appoint, choose) them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
The Greek word translated as ordained here, however is not a common word. Thayer’s Lexicon defines the word as follows:
to vote by stretching out the hand
to create or appoint by vote
to elect, appoint, create
In other words when it says that and when they had ordained them elders the unique Greek words does not mean the act of “a setting apart to an office by the imposition of hands,” but is a verb that definitely means “to stretch out the hand,” which was the customary manner of electing a person to an office or job.
Why do this? Unlike the LDS who suggest that their leaders can come into an area and by the spirit pick a new stake president, the early apostles would go in and take a vote from the people who knew each other and let them vote as to who would be deemed leaders.
Now, to be fair this passage says that Paul and Barnabas did this so some might believe that they voted on the matter between themselves.
But all it probably means is that they presided in the assembly when the choice was made. It does not mean that they appointed them without consulting the church.
When we look at other versions and their translation of Acts 14:23 the language they use is not ordained to a holy order but rather chose elected or appointed people. For example
NKJV – they had appointed elders in every church
NIV margin – had elders elected
ESV, NASB, RSV – had appointed elders for them in every church
Bible in Basic English – had made selection of some to be rulers in every church
CEV – chose some leaders for each of the churches
NCV – They chose elders for each church
GOD’s WORD – They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders
Young’s Literal Translation – having appointed to them by vote elders in every assembly
1st Timothy 2:7 is another King James verse people will use to justify ordained as meaning anointed into a holy office.
In it Paul says:

JV – Whereunto I am ordained (?????? / etethen / G5087 / to put, make, appoint) a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
This text uses the same Greek word as we find here in John 15:16— it is an ordinary word used many times in the NT.

It does not mean ordained in any sense of “make someone a priest or minister” or “confer holy orders on.”

For this reason most versions translate this text using commonplace words, for example, in
NKJV, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV Paul says – “I was appointed a preacher”
Bible in Basic English – I became a preacher
Douay-Rheims – I am appointed a preacher
CEV – God chose me to be a preacher
NCB – I was chosen to tell the Good News
GOD’s WORD – I was appointed to spread this Good News
NIRV – I was appointed to be a messenger
Young’s Literal Translation – I was set a preacher
In Titus 1:5 we have another popular proof text that is used. It has Paul say:

Titus 1:5 KJV – For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain (?????????? / katasteses / G2525 / to put down, bring to, put in charge, make) elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
The word the KJV translates as ordain in Titus 1:5, is a Greek word that means to set, place or put; it is most frequently translated in the KJV as make.

Again (and for this reason) most other versions translate this text with commonplace words.
NKJV, NASB, ASV, NLT, NIV, ESV, RSV, NCV, HCSB – appoint elders
Bible in Basic English – placing men in authority over the churches in every town
CEV – to appoint leaders for the churches in each town
GOD’S WORD – appointing spiritual leaders in every city
Young’s Literal Translation – mayest set down in every city elders
The language used in the New Testament suggests that the concept of ordination— which according to the Old Testament AND Webster and the Oxford dictionary means conferring of “holy orders” or “investing of “ministerial or priestly authority”— is not supported by the New Testament texts.

The language of the texts suggests that individuals are chosen, appointed or elected for certain responsibilities, but there is no suggestion that they become part of a separate “order” or priesthood or office the way a priest in the Old Testament would be ordained.

Within the context of New Testament teaching, there may be other reasons— practical and organizational— for setting aside certain individuals with church authority, but the Biblical support is weak for viewing those individuals as a “holy order” having a privileged relationship to God that is superior to anyone else.

The final thought related to ordaining relates to a contextual point of view I take very seriously – and take it for what it’s worth.

Let me wrap today up with this perspective.

Jesus came and fulfilled the law and the prophets. He faced the traditions of 1500 or so years in fulfilling it all and the confluence of all parties involved must have been one tumultuous storm of cultures clashing and ideas grinding over each other to take precedence.

Prior to overcoming sin and death He elected/called/chose/appointed twelve men to carry His message out to the world.

When the Holy Spirit fell, it became the definitive guide to the direction of the church – poured out in great power but administered by the apostles until they were all taken from the earth.

All the apostles reassured the believers IN THAT DAY that He was coming back for His church – for them to trust this and wait, that the gates of hell would not prevail against them.

These reassurances and promises were fulfilled in 70 AD with the advent of the Lord returning and not only saving them but pouring judgment on the house of Israel for their rejection of Him.

From this point the gates of hell have prevailed against church but not against His body of believers who are guided by the Holy spirit and not through the demands of men or religious leaders playing church.

So instead of Jesus reigning over religious institutions that insist on trying to mirror what the first church did, He works in spite of us and our attempts in bringing all who seek to Him.

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