John 12.33 Part IV
September 14th 2014
Milk
Welcome
Our CAMPUS gatherings are best described as people of all walks, all beliefs, all mindsets, and attitutdes, and lifestyles and back grounds coming together to hear the Word of God taught so they can decide for themselves what they believe.
To begin: “Does anyone have anything to share this morning?”
Prayer
Sing
Silence
When we come back we will finish our analysis of John 12:32 where our beautiful Lord, God and King Jesus so plainly said:
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.”
Prayer
Sing
Silence
Alright, as stated, we have been in the Gospel of John here at our Milk gathering but have sort of pulled off the side of the road and have spent an entire month discussing the meaning of Jesus strange words found in John chapter 12 verse 32, which say:
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.”
If you have not been with us you can go back to the archives and watch any of the former teachings at ___________________
I want to begin this last segment today with a rhetorical question:
“Is God just?”
As Christian’s we have to admit that if He is to be considered a God that can be trusted, He must be a God who is completely fair and just.
And then, If or since He is just, we must also ask, Would a just God allow for a place like hell and/or any other form or place of punishment to exist for those who reject His will and gifts and desires for them?
Of course He would. Such places, if seen in the proper light, would be great indicators of His love – especially when seen as having purpose in the existence of those who experience them.
Think about the concept of God’s justice, His mercy, His love and His purposes relative to insufferable punishment being endless.
If people who rebel against God’s call enter hell or the Lake of Fire and suffer eternally, without reprieve, forever and ever and ever (LISTEN – THINK) what can we say is the ONLY purpose for their suffering?
The ONLY purpose, if such suffering is endless, is punishment. In other words if people never get out, and all they do is suffer without end, the only reason is God wants to torment them forever – as such suffering has no end in sight. With no end to ever come about, and therefore no reformation or change possible – because reformation and change do not matter any longer – the ONLY reason God would have souls suffering forever would be to eternally punish them.
Such action is said to come from a God who we not only call LOVE, MERCIFUL, and GOOD, but this very God tells us to give everyone a chance and that love never fails – never, ever gives up!
So, we ask: “Is hell eternal?”
Biblically speaking, the answer is “No, it is not. Hell gives up her dead at the Great White Throne judgment.”
We know this from Revelation 20:13. We can therefore see that hell has a purpose, right? It does or will accomplish something toward God’s ultimate plan and will being complete.
We learned last week that those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of Life are then cast into what scripture calls the Lake of Fire or the Second Death.
So the next question relates to the lake of fire – (which was created for Satan and His angels and not man) but we have to ask:
“Is the Lake of Fire eternal?”
Because it does occur AFTER the Great White Throne judgment it seems like we could logically concur, “Yes, those in the Lake of Fire will never get out.”
If we say they will all eventually get out, we have to justify this by scripture.
But if we say they will never, ever get out, we are then left with subsequent questions:
“Are those in the Lake of Fire (who from what Jesus says encompassed most of humanity) “literally burned” with “literal flames of fire” “forever and ever and ever” in the worst pain and anguish imaginable and without end?”
OR
“Are they annihilated? Burning so deep and badly that they are ultimately and totally consumed?” (this was Ellen G White’s thought)
OR
“After time of purposeful suffering aimed at purging and not punishment, are they let out, only to come to faith and enter His all in all at some diminished level or another?”
Wrapping all of these ideas up I suggest, humbly (mind you) and always open to correction, that scripture depicts God in the following ways:
He is all knowing and in possession of all knowledge from beginning (prior to any creative endeavors) and then all the way out to the end, where 1st Corinthians 15:28 says the last enemy death is destroyed, Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father and God becomes, “all in all.”
I would suggest that scripture pictures Him as perfectly fair and just through executions of unconditional and endless love. There exists in Him no shadow, evil, or darkness.
That contrary to Calvinism He is a God of freedom and free will. He created the universe not under a despotic hand of unfeeling pre-destination but under one of ultimate redeeming love. In this manner He governs ALL things by and through His foreknowledge – electing and choosing (predestining) some people and nations (based on this foreknowledge of them and their ways) that will freely accomplish His ultimate will (which is complete and total reconciliation of all peoples in some state or another).
In this plan some will come to Him by faith through law, some will come to Him by grace through faith, and some will come to Him by faith through sorrow.
And in the end, He will have His way – which from the onset is the total reconciliation of all – even the “worst.”
As a means to supplement these notions allow just a little more detail information about the Lake of Fire and we’ll start with a look at the term fire itself.
And I’m talking about fire as it is related to The Lake of Fire, which as we pointed out, scripture defines as, “the second death.”
There are four passages in the Book of Revelation (which is the only book that mentions the Lake of Fire) which tie a unique word to that place – brimstone.
Revelation 14:10, 19:20, 20:10 and 21:8.
The word brimstone was translated from the Greek word “theion” – T-H-E-I-O-N.
You probably recognize the Greek word Theos – it means God – and it’s where we get the word “theology,” which means the study of God.
Additionally, the Greek word THEIOS means divine. So it is really easy to see that the word brimstone, which comes from the Greek word THEION is in the family with other Greek words used to describe God.
In Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament the word brimstone is defined as fire from heaven used to purify.
If you check Strong’s Concordance or Thayers you will discover that brimstone is connected to God’s divine power to purify NOT punish.
So we have to also ask, it the fire for punishment or purging, for torture or trying, for cruelty or for correction?
As an interesting aside, where is the Lake of Fire actually located?
There are passages in Revelation 14 that might surprise you where the fire and brimstone exists, or at least who is present amidst it.
Revelation 14:9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
From these passages we can see that those tormented in fire and brimstone are “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb!”
We know from scripture that God does not take pleasure in this type of death – in any death of the sinner and wicked.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
2nd Samuel 14:14 says something interesting, in my opinion alluding to God and His ways of redemption, saying:
“For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.”
From all these passages and the information they provide it seems we see the lake as having a few different elements present that what we might have thought were there before.
I had been taught from almost every faction of modern Christianity that the Lake of Fire is God tormenting evil men for the sake of cruel punishment.
Listen – this assessment is absolutely correct . . . IF the fire is literal and unending.
It couldn’t be LOVE that exposes most of the world to the flame IF they never get out.
Get it?
But we can say it is love if they do and will.
In other words, if those who do not receive Christ shed blood in this life – those who die unsaved – are banished to torments and fires forever, the torments MUST . . . MUST be based in cruelty and torture . . . because they have no redemptive value.
So let’s take a look at that word “tormented” in Revelation 14:10 – the passage that says they will be tormented by fire and brimstone in the Holy Angels and Lambs presence.
Ready for this?
The word translated tormented in Strongs, Vines, and Thayers is “basinizo.” And it comes from the Greek word that literally means “to put to the test by rubbing on the touchstone.”
Touchstones are pieces of rock or flint that are used to grind off elements or particles in the processing of alloys or other metals.
From this definition we can see that the process in the Lake is not one of a mindless, endless torture for the sake of cruelty but one of refining, purging, rubbing off the rough edges, so to speak.
I find this interesting because in it we discover real meaning – loving meaning – in something Jesus says in Matthew 21:44.
Jesus had just given the parable of the wicked husbandman to the scribes and Pharisees.
He ends the parable by telling these religious leaders
(Matthew 21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
They had the True Messiah come and they rejected Him and therefore, Jesus tells them, the Kingdom is going to be taken from them and given to another nation (the Gentiles) which would bring forth fruit.
Then he says something interesting and relative to this touchstone concept in the very next verse:
“whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”
The nation refused to fall upon Him the Rock or stone and humbly receive Him. Therefore, He says, the other option is He will fall on them and grind them to powder.
I would suggest, in light of the meaning Torments found in Revelation 14, and the fact that those in the Lake of Fire will be subject to brimstone and fire in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb that again, we are talking about painful mandatory refinement – grinding down upon the willful – a grinding that, producing friction simultaneously produces heat or fire.
Some things to think about.
Additionally, the wrath of God is to come. And it will be poured out on those who reject His Son.
Revelation speaks of His wrath, and fierce anger being contained in a cup – a container of limited dimensions.
A loving, forgiving, longsuffering God would not have wrath that runs like a river forever.
It is limited, justly appropriate to the crime, and delivered in appropriate amounts – like stripes that come to some as a few, and to others as many.
I’d like to stop here . . . but I can’t!
There are three more concepts that must be addressed in this matter to help round it all out.
There are two basic Greek words for the will of God – THELEMA and BOULEMA.
Thelema is essentially defined as “God’s gracious design and it is indicative of His desires. His desired will. In this word we see connections to the Greek word Theos or God.
The second word, Boulemea, is His deliberate design or His purposed will.
Themema his desired will.
Boulema his purposed will – what will not be altered.
If we look at 1st Timothy 2:3-4 we will read:
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
The English word “will” here is taken from the Greek Thelo – He desires that all men to be saved.
Now, if eternal punishment is a reality, God will not have His desires accomplished for all men will not be saved – in fact, only a few.
This is the standard rationale of most Christians – God is love and He desires all to be saved, but His desires (due to the free will of man) will not be met.
Does this response differ from your earlier view that God will have all His desires accomplished?
But let’s get a little more emphatic here.
Go back to II Peter 3:9. It says:
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
Where it says that God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, are we talking Thelema again, “that He does not desire that any should perish?”
No. The Greek word is Boulamai – His purposes and expressed will shall be done.
He has not purposed that ANY should perish.
From these two passages we see that it is both God’s desire and His purpose that none should perish, but all should come to repentance and be saved.
From these passages and passages like these we are confronted with a serious breech if intellectual, biblical, and spiritual integrity is not maintained.
What is the breach?
That a sovereign God, who knew and knows all things from the beginning to the end, and by and through foreknowledge of all things WILL NOT see His loving and good desires and purposes fulfilled!
This is an impossible contradiction.
Calvinists meet it by saying this Soveriegn God’s desires and purposes are accomplished in that He has predestined some to burn in hell forever, ignoring the fact that He is love and mercy.
But the Bible suggests otherwise through what we have discussed on the matter. In and through this beautiful approach, God maintains LOVE, SOVEREIGNTY, A RESPECT for FREE WILL, and JUSTICE while having his pleasure and desires completely and fully met.
Another point to consider.
In light of all we have talked about I find new meaning in the term lost.
Since Jesus paid for all the sin of the world, paying the debt and redeeming all, we are dealing with people who are blinded by the prince of this world who seeks to have them suffer.
Seeing the redemptive work of our King in this manner enables us to see those who have yet to believe as lost and sinful due to unbelief or a lack of faith, not sinful in the sense of numbered and categorized sin.
This is important because when we as believers start looking out at the world as “the sinful” and ourselves as “the worthy” it is easy to forget that our righteousness has come by faith, and abides in the flesh we call home.
If we are able to see the rest of the world as failing in faith and therefore lost due to their blindness, it enables us to retain a modicum of humility and gratitude for Him who redeemed us RATHER than looking down our noses at those who have YET . . . to be found.
In other words, if a person is a lost sinner it merely means they are temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns Him. And if Jesus redeemed the world, there are those who are “always with Him and who have been His from the beginning (The Bride of Christ),” but there also remain those needing to be found.
And here’s the key – a Good Shepherd would never abandon the search and return of those who are His.
In Luke 15:4 Jesus said:
“What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”
That last passage used to frustrate me to no end. Who needs no repentance? Jesus here paradoxically says the ninety and nine. I would strongly suggest that this parable speak NOT only to
The house of Israel and them being the lost sheep.
The church and those who backslide, but also to the whole of humankind.
See, there are words used in the King James especially that have been assigned to the wicked of this world.
Lost, Perish, and Destroy.
In Luke 13:3 Jesus says (KJV) “ . . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise “perish.”
2nd Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.”
And James 4:12 says:
James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
These words sound definite and complete, don’t they?
But all of these words come from the Greek word, apollumi. (apoolomee)
Unfortunately, some have assigned meaning to this Greek term that is not consistently applied.
For example in my Powerbible software it suggests that apololamee means to obliterate.
In a sense it does because the better definitions mean “ruin,” and “loss,” but not total extinction – decimate yes, obliterate, no.
I can prove this through other passages of scripture. For example in the story of the Lost Sheep Jesus tells, the Greek word for lost is apoloomai.
In the story of the prodigal son the word is “apollomai,” and in Luke 19:10, where Jesus says:
“For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost,” the word is the same.
It obviously does NOT mean totally destroyed or completely perished, but suffering loss – but always found again.
Isn’t this the God we worship. One who is just, who does use all means to reach all people – the found and the lost – rather than a God created in the minds of men who truly think He actually created most human beings to suffer forever!
How unconscionable.
Through this contextual view of the Bible message we discover a God whose punishments have purpose, who is not inferior to the will and ways of Man or Satan, who is victorious, whose love truly NEVER does fail but who simultaneously does use the free will of Man in His victory.
He is worthy of all honor, all glory, all allegiance, and every whit of our trust and adoration!
Two more things and I guess we’ll open it up to questions and comments.
The first is the Psalms.
When I read them I am able to hear the heart of God shining through.
Admittedly, I have come across a number of them that give me pause. In light of all we have talked about over these past few weeks, let me share a few with you – see if they hit you in a similar way?
Psalm 2:7-8 “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.”
Psalm 22:27-28 “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.”
Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.”
Psalm 65:2 “O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.”
Psalm 68:18 “Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.”
Psalm 89:11 “The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.”
Psalm 86:8-10 “Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.”
And of course,
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Didn’t Paul say love never fails? If God is love, can He, will He, ever fail to bring about His Good will and pleasure in spite of our failures?
Doesn’t the Word say that Death will be swallowed up in victory? Does some death escape victory of Christ on the cross? Isn’t the second death subject to His victory too?
As I’ve talked on this topic over the last few weeks with others I’ve had people say, in their efforts to establish eternal punishment as a fact:
“God is Just, God is Just!”
He certainly is. And because He is just He sent His Son, a Son who not only saved all men, He is a Son before whom “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.”
Do you know what James, Jesus brother said about Mercy and Justice?
James 2:13 says, “Mercy Triumphs over Judgment.”
Before going to questions, prayer, and song, I want to bring in a few quotes from people that loved the Lord and His word from long ago relative to this subject.
They are just humans – like you and I – but I am bringing their thoughts to the table to show you just how long these ideas have been around.
We call these men the Early Church Fathers.
Now, admittedly, they made some mistakes – this may (MAY) be one of them. But they were willing to voice their opinions on the topic and were not castigated as heretical when they did.
I would suggest, prior to reading them, that the doctrine of endless eternal punishment was a rarity among believers in the earliest centuries of the church and it was the Roman and Greek traditions that helped bring the ideas to the church in time.
Augustine (in 354 -430 AD) was one of the first to truly popularize the teaching of eternal punishment. Proving the teaching was still around in the church when Augustine was alive let’s first hear a quote from him, which says:
“And now I see I must have a gentle disputation with “certain tender hearts” of our own religion, who are unwilling to believe that everlasting punishment will be inflicted, either on all those whom the just Judge shall condemn to the pains of hell or even on some of them.”
Augustine aside, the earliest church fathers tended to believe that the torments were purposeful, and aimed at purging and cleansing rather than cruelty and suffering for sufferings sake.
These thoughts all fell under what was known was “the restitution of all things” (which, interestingly enough, Paul refers to frequently but never mentions hell).
It wasn’t until 533 AD that an official attempt was made to rid the world of the “restitution of all things idea.”
By this time, most of the men who dominated Christianity couldn’t even read Greek.
Irenaeus (130-200AD), who wrote intimately of Polycarp who was a close friend of the Apostle John, reveals through his writings a belief in “an ultimate reconciliation of all things back to God.”
Clement of Alexandria (185AD – 254) wrote:
“The Lord is a propitiation not for our sins only, that is, of the faithful, but also for the whole world. Therefore He indeed saves all universally; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining honor and dignity, that “to Him every knee will bow, of things in heaven, of things in earth, and things under the earth, that is to say angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world.”
ORIGEN (185-254AD) wrote:
“He that despises the purification of the Word of God, the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for dreadful and penal purifications afterwards; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor gospel preaching has cleansed, according to that which is written of being “purified by fire.” But how long this purification which is wrought out by penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods or ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows to whom all judgment is committed by the Father.”
I could write on and on, adding a dozen or more to the list, but let me conclude this whole thing with the words of Luther, that if uttered today, would certainly cause many to scream HERESY.
This is what “the Father of the Reformation” said in a letter written in 1522:
“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future.”
We cannot escape the biblical reality that we will ALL reap what we sow. This is certainly a universal law and it comes by way of our works (for God, for others, and for ourselves) being tried by fire.
But when Jesus said:
And I, if I be lifted above the earth, will draw all men unto me – He meant EXACTLY what He said, and in the end, all will come to Him, some as His joint heirs, some having gone through hell, some purged of self in the lake of fire – but in the end, all.
Q and A
