Heart of the Matter: Live from Salt Lake City

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism (and the Factory here in Salt Lake City, Utah) this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where . . .

Biblical Christianity meets American Evangelicalism Face to Face . . .

Show 13: Is Bigger Better Part II

May 21st 2013

And I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host. We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this, His ministry. We pray His Spirit upon you – and us – tonight.

Hey, just as an FYI for those of you who live in the Salt Lake City area – the City of Murray has finally allowed us to assemble in our building here where we stream Heart of the Matter Evangelical. We had our first verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. services two days ago as a result. Of course all are welcome. You can get all the information you need about how we do church by going to www.C-A-M-P-U-S.com. We are truly excited about being able to put what we think is the New Testament model of doing church into action.

There are two things we would like you all to know about this. First, every Sunday, at 10am and then at 2:30 (US Mountain Time) you can live stream our verse by verse teaching. We are in the Gospel of John at 10 and the Book of Hebrews at 2:30. We hope that this service will be of benefit to believers everywhere but especially for those who have trouble getting outside – people who have limited mobility, are in prison, or lack transportation to go to a brick and mortar church. We also hope those of you who can attend a local church (which you should – that is part of being a Christian) that you would use our streaming to enhance your knowledge of Our King through the Word.

So that’s the first announcement – beginning this coming Sunday we will be live streaming our Sunday services at 10 and then at 2:30 –ESPECIALLY for the confined.

Invitation to Use the Studio

The second announcement is we have built this studio out to be used. It is the Lord’s. So if you are from Utah, and are a Christian, we invite you to use it (when we’re not) for His purposes. We have technical abilities to produce top of the line televised productions. If you are a pastor who wants to get a specific teaching or message recorded for your website (or for television – like for TV20) or if you have a specific ministry, or are an apologist, or if you have a study you would like to capture for duplication, we can do it for you. And we want to do it for you in the name and cause of the King. The only qualifier is you must be Christian and you cannot teach heresy (like blab it and grab it or any of that junk). So we invite any and all Christians (even those churches and people who banned together to get us off TV 20) to come and use these facilities. So tell your pastor or those who are looking for a studio for production and have them give us a call.

We receive this news article from _____ that comes from the UK. It’s an expose written about TBN – it’s owners and their finances, which includes them owning thirteen mansions, a 50 million dollar Jet, and a hundred thousand dollar motor home – for their dogs. We’ve talked a lot about the church and money. But the Bible is very clear when it comes to it.

Jesus says in Luke16:13 “No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” The word “mammon” is a Chaldaic word and it means WEALTH – no true servant can serve God and wealth. In several places Paul, in describing the qualifications for those called (as Pastors or Deacons) says that they cannot “be given to “filthy lucre.” That means money itself and/or acquiring wealth cannot be the main drivers or priorities for leaders in Christ’s kingdom.

Teachings on Wealth

Jesus Himself, in the Parable of the Sower said: “And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” Luke 8:14

We know the story of the Rich Young Ruler and what…

Temptations of Power, Glory, and Wealth in Ministry

The Lord said to him. We know Jesus said, “where your treasure is there will your heart be also.” And we know that John the Beloved plainly said:

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” 1st John 2:16

How these people, and those who endorse them, can, in the service and name of Jesus, do such things and live like this is beyond me—especially knowing that the Bible makes it perfectly clear they are in error.

The Three G's in Ministry

Back when I was in ministry school, we were told that there are three “G’s” that take the majority of Pastors down – Girls, Glory, and Gold. I completely understand—from first-hand experience—how and why these three G’s work on people in ministry. When men are held up as icons of power, respect, or influence, the girls and women who are attracted to such start coming out of the woodwork and lavishing attention on them where people who know them keep things on the level. Simultaneously, some pastors, in the face of such attention and/or success, start believing their own flesh and relish in the glory. Or when the coffers start filling up, some pastors start serving money more than God.

I do not judge men who fall prey to the temptations as the enticements can be intoxicating—I think we all get that. But I do fault those who either make such failures their lifestyle AND/OR justify their actions and attitudes in the name of God. In a rather fascinating compendium of cult leaders I read years ago (which I lent to someone and never got it back, so I can’t remember the title), nearly every single cult leader and the cult they establish accepted at least one, or two, or all three of the three G’s.

Example: Joseph Smith and the Three G’s

In a glaring example, the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith Jun., was all about—I mean all about the three G’s in his person—and like most Christian cult leaders, he did it all in God’s name. We know about the girls in Smith’s life. At least thirty-three secret wives—many of them teens (while he was in his thirties and forties) and others married to other men! In God’s name, he took them in and made them his own. And we know of the glory too. We know he had himself ordained “King of the world,” that he rode around Nauvoo in full military regalia and a riding crop, and we’ve all read some of the things he said, like:

“…I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . .” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

The Financial Fraud

But not too many people know how important money was to Smith. Of course, he started off life as a teen and young adult as a financial con, convincing people he had an ability to “see” buried treasure on their land. Of this, he was charged and convicted. But when Smith discovered that people believed and bought into his religious tales, he perpetrated his financial fraud in the name of God. In 1837, he claimed to have audibly heard God tell him to establish a bank, he said that it “like Aaron’s rod would swallow up other banks” and “grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth and survive when all other banks were ruined,” (Painesville Republican February 22 1838)

Wilford Woodruff, fourth President of the Mormon church, wrote in his very own personal journal about Joseph’s bank revelation from God on January 6th 1837. It said: “I heard President Joseph Smith Jr. declare that he had received that morning the Word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirkland Safety Society. He was alone in the room by himself and he had not only heard the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an audible voice.”

The Challenge of Integrity and Faith

Result of this audible revelation, Smith set up an illegal bank, printed illegal currency, and bilked many, many people out of thousands and thousands of dollars. When the bank was declared to be illegal and the State legislature refused to grant it a charter, Mormonism’s founders Smith and Oliver Cowdery renamed the bank and then continued to operate the fraudulent financial institution under the new name. When the bank was finally shut down (and well before news of its failure was made public) Smith went to Canada to “preach” and while there passed what he knew was illegal and worthless notes of the defunct currency to trusting and unsuspecting people. According to Fawn Brodie, Smith’s successor Brigham Young also passed approximately ten thousand dollars worth of the junk currency throughout several states too. In the end, Smith and his side-kick Sidney Rigdon faced thirteen lawsuits totaling demands for $35,000.00 and Smith was arrested seven times in four months. They escaped from the sheriff’s custody and on the night of January 12, 1838 made their way on horseback to Missouri.

Don’t believe me? Go to www.utml.org and read all about it. But the point is, and the Bible says it well:

“For the love of money is the root of all evil . . .” (1st Timothy 6:10)

Which takes us right into tonight’s message . . . but first, let’s have a word of prayer.

Historical Context of Church and State

So last week we talked about the false notion (that seems to exist more and more in Christianity today) which suggests that “bigger is better” when it comes to church. After watching that show, some of you may wonder, “Well, what is the Biblical model of how to do church – if one even exists?” At the risk of alienating everyone who has ever resonated to our ministry, I am going to lay out plainly what I believe this model to be . . . and then tell you which church does church best.

But first, a little history which I hope will serve to illustrate some events that helped create the religious institutional monsters we see in America (and elsewhere) today. It appears that in year 313, when Constantine “made Christianity the state religion,” (right there, the components of that statement alone ought to make people cringe, shouldn’t it? . . . “when Constantine MADE Christianity the STATE RELIGION.”) the church – from that point forward – began to (off and on) assimilate itself into affairs of state Government while governments inserted itself into the affairs of church.

This automatically made Christianity (a faith where it’s King was and is apolitical) subject to worldly operations and attitudes. Before long, “bigger” actually became a necessity to meet the demands of masses of people who were forced into faith. (there’s another paradoxical statement, right? “Forced into faith?”). In time, Romans Catholicism began to see cathedral size (the more opulent the better) as a direct indicator of divine approbation. And since they were enmeshed with the state, earthly power (apparently forgetting that God works through the weak things of the world, not the strong, to achieve His purposes).

It is not an insignificant fact that the first ever recorded property the “church” as an institution ever owned were catacombs in Rome (or places that housed the dead). By the time the Protestant Reformation came along, “church and state” were virtually inseparable and what the church said, the state did, (and vice versa).

The Struggle for True Faith

As a brief segue, every political attempt take by men and women in the name of Christ today in some way serves as a vestige of this untenable and unbiblical relationship that existed in 16th Century Europe. So, back then, the Catholicism thrived on being in bed with the state (and used that power to crush anyone who went against them) but what many people don’t realize is the Protestants (at the time – and still today) attempted to do the same.

LISTEN – OUTSIDE OF GOD’S HISTORICALLY TRUE REMNANT WE HAVE A CHURCH HISTORY of SHEER UGLINESS.

But, as I said, when Christ established His church, “not even the gates of hell could prevail against it” and there has ALWAYS been a line of courageous believers who sought for truth and then stood in the face of churches who endorsed things like “church/state relations,” “infant baptism,” “the masses,” “indulgences,” “worshipping Mother Mary,” “priesthood authority” and eating only fish on Friday’s” – and bravely said . . . NO FREAKING MORE.

The Anabaptists: A Historical Example of Courageous Faith

A living example from recorded history – the recorded history of a group of courageous men and women pejoratively named, the Anabaptists. The place was Switzerland and the year was 1525 – January of 1525 to be exact. On what would obviously be a cold night, a dozen or so men broke from the established indivisible “church/state law (that said nobody who had been baptized Catholic or Protestant could be re-baptized) and submitted to what they called a believers baptism. To make matters worse (or better, depending on how you look at it) they then went out and courageously baptized throngs of people who too knew something was wrong.

Anabaptist Leaders and Their Martyrdom

What punishment for did any and all face for standing up for Jesus and biblical truth? DeathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God.. And the first five true leaders of this nascent Christian collective –

Conrad Grebel,
Felix Manz,
George Blaurock,
Hans Lengegger, and
Michael Sattler

were put to death, through one means or another.

Grebel, put in prison for his rebellion in the name of Christ died of illnesses brought on by his long term and horrid incarceration. Manz, hands and legs bound, was thrown into the river and drown. While the religious institutionalists were tying him up, he said with a loud voice to those who looked on: “Into thy hands I commend my spirit.”

George Blaurock and Hans Langegger, were first tortured on August 14th 1529, with the intent that the torture would cause them to give up the names of other Anabaptists who too had submitted to water baptism. Nothing doing. Three weeks later they were both burned at the stake. On the way to the place of execution what did Blaurock do? He urgently encouraged all who looked on to read the scriptures. Michael Sattler’s martyrdom is, as William R. Estep notes, and Anabaptist hallmark.

This is how his sentence read: “Michael Sattler shall be committed to the executioner. The latter shall take him to the square and there first cut out his tongue, and then forge him fast to a wagon and there with glowing iron tongs twice tear pieces from his body, then on the way to the site of the execution five times more as above then burn his body to powder as an arch-heretic.”

Listen! While in the marketplace and still able to speak, Sattler prayed for his executioners. And after they cut out his tongue and tore flesh from his body six times twice, when they tied him to a ladder and pushed into a fire, he prayed the best to his ability. As soon as the ropes were burned from off his hands he took the time to give the promised signal to other brethren looking on that said, by raising two fingers up, “a Martyr's death is bearable.” After repeated attempts to get a recantation from Sattler’s devoted wife, she was drowned eight days later. Hundreds of Anabaptists followed. Thousands over the years. All men and many, many courageous women who refused the doctrines and philosophies of man, but instead chose to follow the Lord Jesus Christ into suffering, and live and die devoted to Him and His Word.

The Legacy and Continuation of Courageous Faith

Where are the Anabaptists today? The courageous Christians who are willing to suffer for truth no matter what the cost? Of course, with this being a fallen world in the control of dark powers and principalities, institutional religion continued to rule… until around the time of the second great awakening, which had its American epicenter in upstate New York in a place called the Burned Over District.

This Second Great Awakening began around 1790, gained momentum by 1800, and in and around 1820 membership, its effects could be seen as memberships in the Baptist and Methodist congregations began to rise. It is believed by some that this revival was a reaction against growing skepticism, deism, and what might be called “rational Christianity,” but this is conjecture. I would also suggest that institutional religion had taken a toll on the minds and hearts of the masses and they too, like the Anabaptists before them, wanted truth.

Stoking the fires of this revivalistic period were some major players who went by the names of Charles Finney, Alexander Campbell, and Barton Stone. All of them fanned “millenialist flames” which claimed the end is near, near, near. Charles Finney introduced what was then called the “anxious bench” a highly emotional precursor to the present-day altar call. In his preaching he would speak of hell, and fire, and sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., and damnation and invite people to come forward and sit on his anxious bench.

Religious Movements and Innovators

Emotional froth over the lives they had lived. At the right moment, the apex of Finney’s messages, they would burst forth crying and begging for mercy, Jesus’ blood, and salvation. And at another corner of the field which was white and ready to harvest were men like Alexander Campbell, who fathered what is known as the Restorationist movement.

This was an appeal to restore to the earth many of the things apparently lost since Christ established his Church. Interestingly enough, most of Campbell’s ideas for what needed to be restored to the church found their way in Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon many years later.

In light of the fanatical zeal illustrated by the practices of men like Finney, and the claim that truth needed to be restored back to the earth (by men like Campbell), and with an age of Christian rationalism and skepticism serving as a predecessor, many religious innovators began popping up from the ashes of the burned over district. These religious innovators were not afraid to reinterpret the Bible and to add their own revelations to it. They included the prophetess Ellen G. White, founder of the Seventh-Day Adventists, William Miller of Millerite fame, The Shakers, and of course Joseph Smith and his Mormons.

The Christian Landscape

So at this point in time, what existed within the realms of Christianity? Catholics. Protestant denominations, still greatly influenced by the half-assed reformation attempts of Luther (Luther, while performing an important work, could never fully cut the man-made apron strings connected to his first church, Catholicism, and therefore left the job half done and therefore revised by dozens of men who came along later – hence the number of denominations). Extra-biblical groups like the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses (who were unafraid to concoct their own views and claim they were from God), other orbiting movements and . . . a remnant of true believers, like those Anabaptists, who read their Bible, and chose to follow it rather than the limited ideas of Man.

As early American explorers and pioneers made advances further and further west, and the industrial revolution overtook the mindset of most US citizens, I would suggest that organized religion – from the traditional denominations to the cults – followed their institutional (or corporate) leads. And by the late 1940’s most religious institutions (with the possible exception of some backwater charismatics who took the Bible too literally and started dancing with poisonous snakes) but most religious institutions had adopted a business-like attitude when it came to doing church.

The Business of Religion

By the 1950’s, whether you were a Catholic, a Protestant, or a Mormon, you attended church looking like an IBM salesman. And with this corporate mentality infusing its way into the religious personality of all churches, “bigger became better.”

Researching this, one Dr. Scott Thumma wrote a book in 1996 that thoroughly explored (through years of arduous research) churches that adhered to the notion that bigger is better, or what we call Mega-churches. According to his research, the bigger is better attitude did not really exist before 1955 and was not truly apparent until the 1980’s, or what is sometimes known as the “me” decade. When it comes to the Mega-Church model, the generation is appropriately named.

Thumma suggests a number of factors that he believes contributed to the formation of these giant churches with 2000 attendees (or more). One conclusion that “mega” or bigger is better is because in America bigger is better, or a literal fulfillment of the “American dream.” The author cites a number of pastors who endorse this insidious position, one of whom who actually said:

“Nobody ever started a business without hoping that someday, if he or she worked hard enough, it would be a big success. That is the American dream, isn't it?”

Is it as apparent to you (as it is to me) what is wrong with that quote – especially when we compare it to the biblical narrative?

First, no matter how many ways till Sunday people compare the two, Church is NOT business. At least it shouldn’t be. It is a place for people to be discipled, plain and simple.

In fact, church isn’t even the place for non-believers to be saved – it’s the missional efforts of the church to bring souls to Christ, but strictly speaking, the church is a place for believers. More on this later but this concept is plainly present in the Word and it completely wipes out the idiotic term “seeker friendly.”

But more on that later too. In the end, at least a large part of American Evangelicalism (its

Leadership and Business in Church

Leadership and its adherents have come to believe that bigger is a sign from on high that they are doing church right, and a great deal of those equate doing church with doing business. I mean, listen to this quote from an administrator of Chapel Hill Harvester church in Georgia as he defends the rigid managerial business techniques he has incorporated into their church. He said, “It's just good business practices that we all need…. We are a church but we are also a business that happens to be operating by the name of a church. We are a ten million dollar a year church that has to operate like a business.”

First of all, ask yourselves, how did one church become a ten million dollar a year business enterprise? Did their leadership ever take steps to limit their size or to redistribute it in a more biblical fashion? The answer must be no. And that tells us how churches become million dollar business enterprises. It all begins (but never seems to end) with the Pastors, the leadership, the men who are supposed to know the biblical model but have ignored it to satisfy their own egos and American dreams rather than adopt the model God presents… (which we will cover next week).

Open Lines and Feedback

Let’s open the Phone Lines!
(801) 590-8413

Reader Feedback

From: Tim
Subject: Love

Message Body:
Just want to let you know that when you say you love the LDS people, you are lying. I have seen the way you treat LDS people.

RESPONSE

From: Brian K.
Subject: New show subject request

Message Body:
Yo Shawn and HoTM peeps!

As a long time listener/viewer and sometime supporter, (I can give more…and I should….I know) I am pumped about the new direction of the show and am supporting you guys on youtube etc. One area of misunderstanding or downright heresy, I don’t know which sometimes, is the concept of ”Lordship Salvation”. This is a pejorative term to categorize those who in one way or another deny Justification by faith alone, by grace alone, in Christ alone. And in some way add a works based doctrine into salvation…so to speak. I’m sure ya’ll know what I talking about here. Now there are large groups of fellow believers who fully buy into some of these ministers of faith like Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, John Piper, etc. In my opinion, these guys are just as dangerous to the gospel (good news) as the Benny Hinns, Reinhard Bonkee’s, and all the prosperity preachers combined because they deny Justification by Faith by adding works up front or on the back end. So I am hoping you will address this issue and if not could you explain why this is not something you would do. I believe you will though. Love you guys!!.. and Shawn, again, if ever Hollywood needs a WWF style Moses to get in the ring or behind the camera, come on dude….it’s a no brainer.

RESPONSE

From: contact
Subject: evc 4 and easter

Message Body:
hey I have not talked to you guys in a while but I have been keeping up and really love your ministry and I am glad you pressing forward. I just wanted to point out a few things about what you say is a miss translation in acts ch12 vs 3 and 4 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put [him] in prison, and delivered [him] to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. .. pay attention to then where the days of unleavened bread we then go to exe 12 and as you read you find out that the feast of unleavened bread is after the Passover to further verify this we can go to numbers 28 vs 16 and 17 so in short herod wanted to kill peter on his own pagan festival of ishtar or however its spelled and the kjv is correct further more the word Passover in English was created by William Tyndale yet he did not use the word he created in his translation well I love you guys and God Bless Sydney

FROM JEFF IN SEATTLE –

Shawn, great, God-glorifying teaching on faith-healing. One thing I think was not accurate was tagging fundamentalists with some of the antics of

Pentecostals Versus Fundamentalists

Pentecostal’s. Pentecostals branched off of fundamentalism, but fundamentalists are not the ones promoting faith-healing at all. If anything, the fundamentalists frown on faith-healing, and even say it's of the devil. Historically, from what I understand, the fundamentalists got their name as a reaction to liberalism that was creeping into the church. To combat it, some Christian leaders met and agreed that to be a true believer, one had to believe in 5 fundamentals: 1) Jesus is God incarnate, 2) Jesus was virgin-born, 3) Jesus died on the cross for our sins, 4) Jesus rose bodily from the dead, and 5) Jesus is coming back again. Pentecostals go way beyond these fundamentals. I wouldn't put them in the same bag as fundamentalists. Just some thoughts for you to consider.

Viewer Testimonies and Responses

Tyler's Inquiry

FROM TYLER

Hey Shawn I have been watching you on YouTube and just started watching your videos on your website and I watched the first episode on being born again and on it you say to not debate doctrine with Mormons but to focus on if they have been born again but then all the YouTube videos I have seen have been you debating Mormon doctrine did God change your heart or method throughout the years of the show?

David Jepson's Experience

DAVID JEPSON WRITES

Hi Shawn

May I just complement you on the great work you do of opening people’s eyes about whom Jesus was/is and his word.

Question: Are you aware of any attorney’s that have the legalese’s down about the Mormon Church harassing resigned member?

Like you I was born into Mormonism, my parents have been and are still active (now in their mid 80’s), my Grandfather was a stake Patriarch, earlier in his life he opened the mission to the Samoan people and built their first chapel there in the 1950’s. However even as a child I was strongly aware the church was heavy on faith and light on proof. Both of us share a wilding youth and I never wanted to do a mission and didn’t as I just found it too unbelievable. In 1984 I fell in love with a “Molly Mormon” flew straight setting aside my doubts and got married in the Salt Lake Temple.

I was expecting to witness something, just a peek inside the box then I spied it in the corner, the mark left behind by the vacuum cleaner. I knew then (as in 2 plus 2 is 4) something was very wrong. Five years later we were divorced due to my lack of faith.

Now age 50 I’ve decided to formalize my disassociation from the Mormon Church and resigned (attachment 1), they responded (attachment 2) it seems “you just can’t leave”… no they want to make a show out of it. So when they arrive I'm planning a YouTube moment, no worries I’ll share.

You have my permission to use this email, my name and attachments to promote your show and Alathea Ministries.

Dave Jeppson

P.S. I really like the direction you’re taking to show.

Questions and Biblical Interpretation

Scott S's Reflections

FROM SCOTT S:

Shawn,

Thanks for sharing on this topic… God is not a puppet who is controlled by our "faith."

I still don't think it goes under "evangelicalism."

Your examples are mostly from "tv" preachers.

And most of the tv preacher are frauds.. and I am afraid for them on the day of judgement…

Just remember to remind your audience that there are many, many good churches and pastors still teaching and preaching the truth.

Scott

ALSO FROM SCOTT S

Shawn,

According to science, people don't come back from the dead. According to "modern" science we have a creation that is "billions" of years old.. based on the notion of uniformitarianism. Is uniformitarianism true?

?: Do you believe in a world-wide flood that destroyed every living thing except Noah, his sons, daughter-in-laws and the animals on the ark?

Jesus did. That's what the Word of God teaches.

If you do, then it's easy scientifically to show that the same "evidence" we see in the rock layers with fossils throughout doesn't support a gradual evolution of things or millions or billions of years, but the evidence for what would happen when a world-wide flood lays down layers of sediment (very quickly) and kills a bunch of stuff. Same evidence is available for creationists as it is for evolutionists. It's just a matter of the viewpoint you start with.

Is Adam and Eve real or symbolic? Jesus believed and taught they were real. Is Genesis 1 and 2 myth or history? Jesus taught it was history.

Belief in Biblical Creation

Using billions of years or in 6 days? Jesus through Exodus 20:11 clearly teaches that God created in 6 days when he "spoke it" into existence. Do the genealogies clearly listed from Adam to Jesus give us the foundation to believe the first man didn't live millions of years ago?

The battle is NOT with the evidence. The battle is do you trust God's Word (clear interpretations) or will you place your trust in a so-called science that has its own creation myth based on billions of years, time and chance? And morphing the Bible to fit what you think is true today in science?

Science theories come and go. What they said was true last week is changed today… and what one study found as "truth" yesterday is changed today. I love real science. I'm fascinated by it. But when "so-called science" is contradicting the Bible, I will trust the Bible. I will trust a God who was a witness to those events and recorded it in plain language for us, rather than "science" (in its modern form) which is clearly based only on atheistic materialism and a denial of anything miraculous or metaphysical.

Science and Belief

The reason we are losing kids is not that we are setting them up with believing in something that is going to be destroyed by "modern science." It's because we are not showing scientifically that belief in a young earth, or six days creation CAN be explained with solid science. It can, and the evidence scientifically for a large percentage of what we do see points to a young earth and not one that is billions of years old.

You are right; we really don't have a war between true "science" and the Bible. All truth, whether revealed in scientific discovery, will support the revealed truth in God's Word.

Anyway, if you can't believe the simple truths revealed in Genesis, why would you believe any of the truths revealed in the Gospels or the NT? Why not reinterpret everything to line up with what modern science will allow you to believe?

No flood. No creation. No resurrection. No heaven. No hell. No miracles. Sorry. Same evidence but a different starting point. Complete trust in what God has revealed.

I do like Ken Ham. I think his ministry is a call to the church to come back to the truth revealed in Scripture and the need NOT to compromise our trust in what clearly is taught in Scripture with science. In fact, true science has plenty of evidence to defend creationism and a young earth.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/did-jesus-say-he-created-in-six-days is a pretty good article. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2004/04/06/jesus-christ-infallibility-of-scripture

Searching for Authenticity

Hi Shawn,

I saw you on the bus from the airport parking lot to the terminal on Wednesday and recognized you from watching your show a few times several years ago. I believe it was an answer to prayer as I have and still am searching for how to be an authentic born again Christian while still an active member of the LDS church (long story as you know). Seeing you on the bus led me to looking you up online, which led me to read your book, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Thank you for your sincerity. We definitely share a sincere desire to know the truth.

I believe very strongly in the necessity to be born again and the reality of it, and I fully agree that the LDS church and its culture do not teach or help people to find this reality (I believe because we don't teach our own doctrine). I struggle, however, to see why it is so important to so many "biblical Christians" to dismiss LDS doctrine. For me, I feel like the Book of Mormon is an excellent source to lead someone to Christ. Why is it important that it be classified as fiction? It doesn't tear down the doctrines in the Bible and actually is filled with narrative and imagery of the criticality of and process to being born again. How can anyone be sure it's made up any more than someone can be sure it's true?

I have seen the failures of the LDS church most of my life and have considered attending a Christian congregation to be taught this most important doctrine of being born again, but I can't bring myself to say that LDS doctrine is all incorrect or that Joseph Smith was not a prophet in the sense that I believe he restored a lot of truth to the earth. All prophets are fallible, so it's not all or nothing. Even he said he was only a prophet when speaking for God; otherwise, he's just a man as flawed as the rest of us, but this is a topic all on its own.

Understanding Truth in Faith

I don't believe the claims of authority by the church and the reliance on man that they create, but I don't think this automatically disqualifies all Lds doctrine. It may or may not be true but isn't adhering to man's "accepted" interpretation of the bible giving authority to those men in much the same way Mormons do? Shouldn't every sincere seeker of truth be open to any possibility that doesn't violate faith in Jesus Christ as potential truth until they KNOW differently? What real difference does it make if I believe God the father, Jesus Christ and the holy ghost are separate and distinct beings or that Satan was our elder brother or that I have the ability to progress eternally (because of Christ's atonement)…

Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't but claiming to know something isn't true seems like the same thing Mormons do when they claim to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is. How are you so sure on these points? If history proves anything, it's that ten men will interpret scripture ten different ways, but as I think you believe from reading your book, truth can only be learned through the spirit. You highlighted at the end of your book how the really important things come to the forefront and the trivial drop away when tragic things occur. Why don't we focus on the common and most important belief that we all must be born again to enter the kingdom of godGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future..

The Role of Being Born Again

This is as much Book of Mormon doctrine as it is biblical doctrine (the books complement each other, why dismiss one?). Once a person is born of God, everything else will work it's way out. In the Book of Mormon, the first thing Christ taught was not to contend over his doctrine. That's sound Christian advice, whether it comes from ancient scripture or not.

Long story short, doesn't humility require us to admit we don't (unless we truly do/ I.e been visited by God and such) have all the answers and we are therefore putting our faith in Christ? Maybe if we all stopped claiming all of these "absolute" truths or falsehoods, our humble admission of not knowing might lead us individually to that absolute truth that only the spirit can convey. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts if you don't mind taking the time. I appreciate your efforts!! Thanks a lot!!

Expressions from Sweden

FROM JESPER in SWEDEN

Hi Shawn! 😀 How are you? How's the new show going? Haven’t watched much of it yet but I hope it goes as God has planned 🙂

Just a question; do you believe Christian should be out on the streets and share the good news, hand out tracts and try to reach people? Not sure if I know your position there. Take care and say hi to La Familia from me!

/ Jesper

FROM SCOTT S

Shawn, I agree with you totally about culture. As a missionary to Japan (14 years) the only thing I tried to give the people was a love for God's Word and a love for God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). That is the only foundation that will last. If I built it on my personality (We love you Scott!) Or my culture (I couldn't stop being a white guy from Oregon..) Then the day I left the mission field would be the day that whatever "I" did would be crumbling to nothing… Nothing but the foundation in His Word and a vibrant love relationship with Jesus would last.

Culture and the Christian Mission

Like you said, put two people together and you will have a "culture." Christianity in Korea will be different from Christianity in Japan, from Christianity in America. Your example of the body is very good. Church to church there will be different cultures. All one in Christ. (Even before you got to that verse in Galatians I was thinking that sums it up). Neither Greek/Jew, male/female, bond/free.. just one in Christ.

The only thing I would remind you of… you said, don't make culture an "us vs them" attitude. But I'm sensing that you are starting to do that same thing you are preaching against. Can you see this?…. You are judging evangelicalism by a few pastors/churches you visited? That is not "the church" I know, or belong to… Absolutely every "church" you visit is going to be falling short… the church you are leading is falling short… right?

And you are judging churches by worship styles? (You are setting up yourself as the judge) and doing exactly what you said we shouldn't be doing. So worship styles will be a target for you? Speaking styles? Whether a church has means or not? Boy you are defining what is

The Culture of Preaching in Christianity

The true "culture" of Christianity? If you preach topically or exegetically? Only exegetical preaching is kosher? Boy that's Jewish of you… I would think there would be appropriate times for both styles of preaching. Did Jesus only quote Scripture? OT Scripture? Or did he use analogies and parables and stories (sometimes very pointed and "topical" parables)? The Kingdom of God is like… The Kingdom of God is like… sounds like he is on a "topic". What the Kingdom of God is like… Not always quoting OT Scripture. Or sharing the truth verse by verse. I agree that exegetical preaching is a weakness in many churches, but there is a balance to everything. Not an all or nothing (setting up a standard) approach or culture, right?

"Come and meet the people we work with…" "Our people are the true church…" your emphasis… (boy you are sounding just like the people you are judging…) They are everywhere. (that is correct)…

Shawn, I can see you are carrying some baggage with "evangelicalism" (the political points of view, must have set you off). The termination of your contract? You are setting up straw men (your definition of "evangelicalism") and then go knock it down.

Different Perspectives on Evangelicalism

How many churches have you visited in your life? I've been in hundreds as a missionary and I work in a non-profit that is actually seeing salt of the earth churches and believers from many different theological spectrums of Christianity come together in Christ and love their communities and the people around them through acts of compassion (visible and active faith)…

So the evangelicalism I'm seeing in Portland, Oregon, is a movement of God that loves his Word and is actually being "The Church" in their communities. I actually think you have a sheltered view of evangelicalism, based on a few experiences (magnified by the people you see on TV). "Holy rollers…" (in a derogatory term). I wonder what you might have said on Pentecost Day in Acts? They were "drunk" in the spirit… even the non-believers around them could see that something was "strange."… Do you "judge" holy rollers? "Spirit-filled" Christianity… I think there is room in the body (like a family) for brothers and sisters to have different giftings, styles, and strengths…

Worship Styles and Personal Freedom

The "evangelicalism" you are talking about is not something I see in the church. I see it in the "TV" preachers on TBN. (So many false teachers). And you are right, some of the mega churches are being built on false preaching.

But worship styles, Shawn? What is the right worship style? Dancing in Africa? Silent meditation in a convent? Clapping hands, raising hands? No hands? No string instruments? No loud drums? Trumpets? The worship I see in Revelation is pretty loud, pretty free… But should I be the judge based on my view? My freedom? I think I remember that the freer you are… you shouldn't be judging your brother who is weaker (less free)…

Love you, Shawn… Just be careful that you are not doing the very same thing you say "evangelical" churches are doing… setting up standards (really our own culture) by which we are judging people… Don't set up straw men just to knock them down and judge part of the body by your own body part standard…

The measure of our maturity in the faith is the amount of Grace we live by and express to those around us… Grace, grace, marvelous grace… Grace that is greater than all my sin…

Scott

FROM SERVEINE IN FRANCE

From: Servanne Illien

Subject: Your show

Message Body:

I really love your show and it has opened my eyes about the legalismRule-based religion is over. Faith and love—not law—define life with God now. of the Mormon church. I would just tell you that though you disagree with the Mormon view that we are saved by grace after all we can do, I still think that though our works will never be sufficient to save us and grace is what will, as Christians we still have a duty of being wise in what we do and how we live and we also have a duty to try and live the Christian values, in particular when it comes to marriage, love, fidelity and commitment and treating other people well. We also have to be wise with whom we mix for our own protection and safety.

So though I will never adhere to the polygamy, and other complicated things of the Mormon church, I still think it is wise to live a safe, wise, and temperant life and that Jesus would have us do it. The difference with the Mormon church is that there is not eternal

Exploring the Culture of the Mormon Church

Condemnation if we make mistakes and recognise them while in the Mormon church the shunning can be real. There are still very good people in the Mormon church … And though I find their healthy code a bit extreme especially when it comes to coffee or finding that drinking a glass of wine is a sin, I still think that avoiding harmful substances is a very wise ideo.

Engaging with Mormon Missionaries

FROM LEWIS

Hey Shawn, I live in North Carolina and I notice an increase in Mormon Missionaries in my area. I was wondering what would be the best way to reach out to those trapped in this Cult? I feel called to start some kind of ministry to reach out but don’t know how to approach it? Any advice would be appreciated!

Closing Thoughts

God Bless,
Lewis