Interview with Pastor Mike

Introduction to the Guest

Hey all, Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. and tonight I have the pleasure of sitting with our first Pastor guest of the year – Pastor Mike Imeriale of the First Presbyterian Church of Salt Lake City.

Before we get to Pastor Mike I want to remind you all to check us out on all social media extensions and especially go to www.hotm.tv where you will have access to EVERYTHING this ministry has done and continues to do.

Early Encounters with Pastor Mike

Now before we sort of open up with Pastor Mike as a means to learn about First Presbyterian Church downtown, I have to tell you a couple things that I know about Mike. Way back in 2006 and 07 I used to spend my mornings in the JB restaurants at the Plaza hotel preparing and studying. And every week on a given day – Pastor Mike would come in and sit with a group of men at a table nearby. I would casually look in at them and sometimes even hear what was being said. And what I saw and heard was a man (pastor Mike) taking the lead with a group of believers, and talking about Jesus and faith in action. And then I would watch them earnestly pray together.

Watching this touched my heart and after a month or so Mike acknowledge knowing the show and we were on a casual acquaintance from that day forward. A year or so back I changed morning locations and moved into the Einstein bagels right down the street from First Pres and there Mike and I started to see each other more regularly. I asked him to be on the show and he agreed. So, my brother . . . welcome.

Pastor Mike's Background

Tell us a little about your personal history leading up to becoming Senior Pastor at First Pres salt Lake

I had a pastor who is a Lutheran say to me not long ago, “I wouldn’t walk across the street to make someone a Lutheran.” I said, “what if they were Catholic?” He said nope. I said, “a Mormon” and he said, “oh yeah.” What so type of people would you take the time to walk across the street to make a Presbyterian?

Distinctive Qualities of First Presbyterian Church

What is it about first Presbyterian that you would say is a plus that cannot be found in most other churches in town?

Theological Stance

As a Pastor who teaches the word, what are some of the theological lines that you draw in the sands of fellowship? What I mean is where do you stop and say theologically, “that type of believer is NOT a Christian?” That person is going to hell?

In your estimation will a card-carrying devout member of the LDS church go to hell after this life?

Presbyterian Church Structure and Beliefs

• Governing Body: The Presbyterian Church governing body is based on a system of elders. Teaching and ruling elders, or ministers, are ordained and responsible for the discipline, nurture and mission of the local congregation. The practicalities of buildings, finance and temporal ministry to the needy in the congregation are delegated to a group of officers called deacons.

2. Doctrine: Presbyterianism is historically a "confessional" type tradition. Confessional churches express their faith in the form of "confessions of faith." In confessional churches, theology is not solely an individual matter. While individuals are encouraged to understand scripture, and may challenge the current institutional understanding, theology is carried out by the community as a whole. It is this community understanding of theology that is expressed in confessions.

3. Education: Presbyterians put an emphasis on equal education for all people. Because of this they "planted" and encouraged schools across the U.S. as the country grew and the missionaries were sent out to the people. In times past when Presbyterians arrived in a new place, they would usually build a church, a school, and a hospital, in that order. Presbyterians see the right to worship of God as paramount, and education as necessary, so that they can serve the world in God's name.

4. Majority Rule: When Presbyterians have a policy or an action to consider, they pray, they talk, and then they vote. In fact, Presbyterians probably take more votes than any other religious group. They believe that the Holy Spirit lives in individuals but works through the community. Because of this lay and clergy votes count the same.

5. Sacraments: Presbyterians traditionally have held the worship position that there are only two sacraments: Baptism and Communion. Presbyterians baptize infants as well as unbaptized adults by sprinkling or pouring water, rather

Differences Between Presbyterian Denominations

Infants are baptized on the biblical belief that because Hebrew infants were circumcised in order to show that they were part of the covenant community, infants of believing parents should likewise be baptized. The ritual of communion, also known as partaking of the Lord's Supper, is based on the belief that Christ is present in the bread and wine through the Holy Spirit.

I was recently asked to outline some of the major differences between the Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) and my own denomination the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and I came up with the following 13 point list:

1. The PCA does not ordain women to either of the offices in the church (Teaching/Ruling Elder, Deacon). The PCUSA by contrast ordains women to both offices. 2) The PCA affirms that the bible is inerrant and infallible in all that it teaches. The PCUSA does not. 3) The PCA repudiates abortion and considers it a violation of the sixth commandment. The PCUSA believes there should be no limits on access to abortions, there should be public funding of abortions, and that there should be limits placed on people who demonstrate against abortion. 4) The PCA is against homosexual behavior and same sex marriage and believes both are sins. The PCUSA does not consider homosexuality to be a sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., ordains practicing homosexuals and came within 30 votes of giving the go ahead to same sex marriage ceremonies in the church. Their next General Assembly (GA) will probably do so. 5) The PCA is against divorce except in cases of adultery or desertion. The PCUSA by contrast allows for no-fault divorce and remarriage.

Ordination and Doctrinal Standards

Question: What distinguishes the OPC from the PCA? More specifically, are there differences in ordination requirements?

Answer: The OPC and PCA have fraternal relations. The OPC separated from the northern Presbyterian church in 1936 because of theological liberalism. The PCA separated from the southern Presbyterian church in 1973 because of theological liberalism. The OPC and PCA share the same doctrinal standards (the Westminster Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms). The OPC tends to be more conservative than the PCA, holding to a more "strict subscriptionist" position relative to the Confession and Catechisms. It also tends to be more conservative in its worship.

Ordination requirements in both the OPC and PCA are very similar. OPC ministers have no difficulty transferring into the PCA, and PCA ministers have no difficulty transferring into the OPC. As stated earlier, doctrinally we have the same secondary standards – the Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms produced by the Westminster Assembly (1643+). The Bible is our primary (first) standard. This is a confession of the Reformed faith, the faith that grew out of the Protestant Reformation. We both also have tertiary (third-level) standards—a form of government, a book of discipline, and a directory for worship.

Church Unity and Missions

There is some difference in how this works out in the life of the church. The OPC is predominantly unified in the way in which the Reformed faith is living in the church. There are differences of emphasis, of worship style, of programs. For example, the OPC cherishes full discussion of problems that arise in the judicatories in order to promote unity, which is why we limit our General Assembly to 150 commissioners so that there can be full and open debate.

Both churches seem to be strict in some areas and not so much so in others; the OPC is strict in things like tendencies toward Arminianism and charismatic gifts but not on the "young earth" idea (though the OPC does not allow for atheistic evolution). Also, the OPC seems to place more emphasis on unity, the PCA on diversity (gracious Southerners!). The major focus of the OPC, even in its evangelism, is the worship of the Lord and the preaching of his Word.

In foreign missions there seems to be a difference in that the OPC is committed to working with the indigenous Reformed churches in the fields in which we are involved, rather than working with parachurch groups. Our goal is to establish and strengthen Reformed churches. The OPC has always been committed to the unity of Christ's church and its interdependence. This commitment has brought us into membership in the International Conference of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 21 Reformed churches from around the world. It is a fellowship that recognizes not only interdependency but also interresponsibility for the health and faithfulness of one another, considerably different from the World Fellowship of Reformed Churches which the PCA had a

Differences Between OPC and PCA

You will find more details on our ecumenical principles on our Web site, especially in our document, "Biblical Principles of the Unity of the Church." I should commend that to you as a biblical statement.

If both believe the others are acceptable before God then why the differences? Why the Split? Question and Answer Presbyterian Church in America.

Question: What distinguishes the OPC from the PCA? More specifically, are there differences in ordination requirements?

Answer: The OPC and PCA have fraternal relations. The OPC separated from the northern Presbyterian church in 1936 because of theological liberalism. The PCA separated from the southern Presbyterian church in 1973 because of theological liberalism. The OPC and PCA share the same doctrinal standards (the Westminster Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms). The OPC tends to be more conservative than the PCA, holding to a more "strict subscriptionist" position relative to the Confession and Catechisms. It also tends to be more conservative in its worship.

Ordination requirements in both the OPC and PCA are very similar. OPC ministers have no difficulty transferring into the PCA, and PCA ministers have no difficulty transferring into the OPC. As stated earlier, doctrinally we have the same secondary standards – the Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms produced by the Westminster Assembly (1643+). The Bible is our primary (first) standard. This is a confession of the Reformed faith, the faith that grew out of the Protestant Reformation. We both also have tertiary (third-level) standards—a form of government, a book of discipline, and a directory for worship.

There is some difference in how this works out in the life of the church. The OPC is predominantly unified in the way in which the Reformed faith is living in the church. There are differences of emphasis, of worship style, of programs. For example, the OPC cherishes full discussion of problems that arise in the judicatories in order to promote unity, which is why we limit our General Assembly to 150 commissioners so that there can be full and open debate. Both churches seem to be strict in some areas and not so much so in others; the OPC is strict in things like tendencies toward Arminianism and charismatic gifts but not on the "young earth" idea (though the OPC does not allow for atheistic evolution). Also, the OPC seems to place more emphasis on unity, the PCA on diversity (gracious Southerners!). The major focus of the OPC, even in its evangelism, is the worship of the Lord and the preaching of his Word.

In foreign missions there seems to be a difference in that the OPC is committed to working with the indigenous Reformed churches in the fields in which we are involved, rather than working with parachurch groups. Our goal is to establish and strengthen Reformed churches. The OPC has always been committed to the unity of Christ's church and its interdependence. This commitment has brought us into membership in the International Conference of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 21 Reformed churches from around the world. It is a fellowship that recognizes not only interdependency but also interresponsibility for the health and faithfulness of one another, considerably different from the World Fellowship of Reformed Churches which the PCA had a large hand in starting. You will find more details on our ecumenical principles on our Web site, especially in our document, "Biblical Principles of the Unity of the Church." I should commend that to you as a biblical statement.

Differences Between PCA and PCUSA

13 Differences Between the PCA and the PCUSA
Posted on April 16, 2013, by Andrew Webb

I was recently asked to outline some of the major differences between the Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) and my own denomination the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and I came up with the following 13 point list:

1. The PCA does not ordain women to either of the offices in the church (Teaching/Ruling Elder, Deacon). The PCUSA by contrast ordains women to both offices.

2. The PCA affirms that the bible is inerrant and infallible in all that it teaches. The PCUSA does not.

3. The PCA repudiates abortion and considers it a violation of the sixth commandment. The PCUSA believes there should be no limits on access to abortions, there should be public funding of abortions, and that there should be limits placed on people who demonstrate against abortion.

4. The PCA is against homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage and believes both are sins. The PCUSA does not consider homosexuality to be a sin, ordains practicing homosexuals, and came within 30 votes of giving the go ahead to same

Main Distinctions Between PCA and PCUSA

Sex marriage ceremonies in the church. Their next General Assembly (GA) will probably do so.

5. The PCA is against divorce except in cases of adultery or desertion. The PCUSA, by contrast, allows for no-fault divorce and remarriage.

6. The PCA has a constitution consisting of the Westminster Standards and Book of Church Order. All church officers must subscribe to these documents as their Confession of Faith. Teaching against the doctrines contained in these documents or violating them could result in trial and deposition from office. By contrast, the PCUSA has a “Book of Confessions” containing all of the major Reformed Confessions, and some modern confessions of faith which change or even deny things contained in these confessions. They are viewed more as a series of general guidelines or suggestions that do not bind the conscience of officers in any way. PCUSA church officers routinely teach contrary to the doctrines contained in these documents.

7. The PCA is explicitly Reformed in its theology. Someone denying Calvinism would have an extremely hard time being ordained in the PCA. By contrast, the theology of PCUSA congregations varies widely from church to church and can cover a spectrum from de facto Unitarian Universalism to Neo-Orthodoxy to soft Arminianism. Very few PCUSA congregations are explicitly Calvinistic in their teaching and preaching.

8. The PCA is explicitly evangelistic in its belief that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life” and that “No one comes to the Father except through [Him]” as well as its desire to see all people come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whereas in the PCUSA, evangelism is much less popular and often either non-existent or repudiated in the manner of influential PCUSA Pastor Rev. Randall K. Bush who stated recently: “As of this point, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached to all the corners of the world, so knock it off…. Once the evangelical notion of the church can be turned down for a moment, the wisdom of other faiths can finally speak.”

Organizational and Theological Differences

9. The PCA is committed to a principle of voluntary association and all PCA congregations own their own property. Additionally, all giving to the administration and permanent committees of the PCA is voluntary. By contrast, the property of PCUSA congregations is “regarded as held in trust for the benefit of the PC(USA).” This makes the dissolution of the denominational bond much more difficult in the PCUSA and can sometimes mean a congregation must leave without their church building.

10. While the PCA is gradually centralizing power, the PCA was originally intended to be a “grass roots” denomination and power is still vested largely in Presbyteries in the PCA. By contrast, in the PCUSA, power is much more centralized in the administration and General Assembly.

11. While the PCA is gradually becoming tolerant towards the teaching of theistic evolution, Creationism is still the doctrine held and confessed by most PCA pastors. By contrast, in the PCUSA, evolution is widely accepted.

Political and Worship Perspectives

12. While the PCA is gradually becoming more open to being involved in national and international politics, particularly through its membership in the NAE, they generally hesitate to take stands on issues that do not clearly fall under the oversight of the church. The PCUSA, on the other hand, routinely takes stands on a host of political issues ranging from immigration to increased funding for public schools to condemning big tobacco to divestment from Israel.

13. (Addendum Regarding Worship) – There used to be significant theological differences between the PCA’s and PCUSA’s theology of worship. These differences still exist on paper even though they no longer exist in practice. The PCA confesses that all of our worship should be directed only by the Bible, while the PCUSA states that worship should be an amalgam of bible, culture, feeling, and tradition.

What’s the Difference between the PCA and the OPC?

Camden Bucey – 19 July 2016 – Ecumenism / Modern Church – 23 Comments

Occasionally, I am asked about the difference between the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and my denomination, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). I’ve had different thoughts about this during my brief sojourn as a member of the latter. It’s a question that can be answered from several different angles. The PCA was founded in 1973 after many conservatives left the progressive Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUS), which is often called the “Southern Presbyterian church.” The OPC was founded in 1936 out of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the mainline Presbyterian body of the north. The PCA and OPC share the same doctrinal standards, but other factors give rise to denominational differences. The PCA is roughly

Differences in Theological Approach and Governance

Ten times larger than the OPC, and perhaps because of the size, demonstrates a greater diversity in several theological matters and worship style. I haven’t seen any empirical studies to substantiate this claim, but some contend that the OPC is generally more uniform among its congregations. The two bodies also have slightly different ways of organizing and governing their work.

The OPC, being founded immediately as a result of a controversy over foreign missions, has taken a specific approach to the foreign mission field. Whereas other missions organization focus more broadly on social justice and humanitarian efforts, the OPC is particularly focused upon planting and raising up indigenous churches. The OPC has sent many ministers along with elders and deacons to the field to support the work of the Great Commission. The OPC calls these ordained men to the work and funds them entirely and directly. Like most other missions organizations, the PCA’s Mission to the World often requires its missionaries to raise financial support. Many argue that this is more effective and leads to a greater number of missionaries being sent to the field. Others view the practice critically, believing it effectively makes “fundraiser” one of the qualifications for ministry. Regardless, the PCA and OPC partner with one another in several mission fields, encouraging one another and recognizing each other as co-laborers in the harvest.

There are other slight differences. For example, all ministers are invited to attend and participate in the PCA’s General Assembly. In the OPC, each presbytery is given a specific number of seats depending on its size, and a minister must be elected and sent by his presbytery to become a commissioner. As you’d expect, this changes the dynamics of the assembly and its related activities.

Substantive Matters of Ecclesiastical Union

But are these matters really substantive, at least to the point that they should be a barrier to ecclesiastical union? It’s an important question that was asked and answered over forty years ago. Why didn’t the conservatives who left the PCUS join with the OPC or other churches of like faith and practice? I believe Sean Michael Lucas identifies the reason:

While many in the Machen cohort that led the OPC in its early days sought to maintain a confessional Presbyterianism for its own sake, the majority of those who helped to develop the PCA were less interested in arguing over secondary theological issues that would distract from the larger goal of evangelizing and renewing American culture. In fact, it appeared that conservatives within the PCUS were influenced more strongly by the rising “New Evangelicalism” and its luminaries, particularly Billy Graham, than by leaders or emphases from the OPC. . . . Thus, rather than link arms with smaller, separatist northern Presbyterian bodies, the founders of the PCA forged a body that would emphasize conservative doctrine for the purpose of renewing American culture (Lucas, For a Continuing Church: The Roots of the Presbyterian Church in America, pp. 3–4).

Identity and Influence

Lucas continues: The PCA has sought to be evangelical Presbyterians and Presbyterian evangelicals, which has given the church a voice to the broader culture. Holding the church together has not been easy. For some, frustrations have arisen from the church’s tendency to opt for an identity that is more comprehensive than pure. Others are disappointed that the church often spends a great deal of time on relatively fine points of Reformed doctrine instead of focusing on mission, cultural engagement, or evangelism (Lucas, For a Continuing Church: The Roots of the Presbyterian Church in America, p. 11).

I’m sure many in the PCA would agree with Lucas’s assessment while others would cast the issue differently. Answering the question of identity with relatively diverse groups of people must be reductionistic to a degree. Lucas, however, has identified an important feature of the PCA. In comparison, a prevailing view of the OPC is that it espouses a pilgrim—rather than an evangelical—mentality.

Charlie Dennison, one-time historian for the OPC, reflects on this issue: While everyone in the OPC understands our opposition to liberalism, some have had trouble understanding the aversion that others have to evangelicalism. They have been unable to accept the conclusion of Cornelius Van Til and others that evangelicalism, as a system, is Arminian. They have been unable to accept the criticism that modern evangelicalism’s view of regeneration is subjective, incapable of rising above a personal experience of sin and grace to the level of the covenant and the federal headship of Adam and Christ. Further, they have been unable to accept the growing historical and social evidence that contemporary evangelicalism is worldly, individualistic, and adolescent, craving acceptance and desperately wanting to make an impact.

(Charlie Dennison, “Some Thoughts about Our Identity”)

Modern Practical Theology

Modern practical theology, however, has moved in a man-centered direction, having adopted a worldly agenda for remedial goals and perceivable gains. Growth and year-end statistics have become gods. Christian maturity is confused with the mastery of methods, managerial skills, and the ability to cope. Modern practical theology trivializes the biblical vision by exalting incidental matters to the level of greatest concern. This is usually done, sometimes unwittingly, through a blend of social sciences, religious technology, and commercialism. In its more tragic expressions, it is ridiculous. (Charlie Dennison, “Some Thoughts about Our Identity” in History for a Pilgrim People, pp. 205–206).

Perspectives on Ministry

I suppose your reaction to these statements would disclose whether you’re more of the PCA or OPC persuasion. If you’re offended by Dennison’s remarks and feel that this is a pessimist and short-sighted view of ministry, you may be more of an evangelical. If you feel that Dennison is speaking to some deep part of your soul, giving voice to latent eschatological purpose, you may be a pilgrim. It’s a matter of heritage, disposition, philosophy of ministry, and eschatologyStudy of “last things”—TGNN teaches all biblical eschatology was fulfilled in 70 A.D. More. I believe Danny Olinger captured it well when he spoke of John P. Galbraith in our recent “documentary” on his life and ministry. Galbraith understood his ecumenical work within the context of a separatist church that nevertheless was not isolationist. He was an engaged pilgrim.

Unity in Diversity

There are meaningful differences between the PCA and OPC, but we shouldn’t overemphasize them. The two ecclesiastical bodies are united ecumenically as closely as our polity allows. We often share pulpits among our sister churches, and many of us have been members in both denominations. We join together in substantial unity wherever and whenever we can, even while we continue to labor as two distinct ecclesiastical bodies under the same head, Jesus Christ.