Interview with Father Christopher

Interview with Father Christopher Gray

Live from Heart of the City of Salty Lakes, This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., I’m your host Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion. – and I’m am truly excited about tonight’s guest. I hope anyone who has a question about Catholicism will call in and present it in our second hour together. In any case, this is Father Christopher Gray, of the Cathedral of the Madeline, which is in downtown Salt Lake City.

Announcement

Show 36 Father Christopher Gray 2 Hour Special July 3rd 2018

Two things – Heart in the Parking Lot. Open water Baptism and wiener roast. Sunday July 29th 2018. 12 Noon here at CAMPUS. Bring change of clothes and towels and appetite!

Secondly, next week we begin a three part interview with an old friend of mine from Orange County California – her name is Kristy Johnson and she has been in the news around these parts lately. Tune in and hear one of the most remarkable stories orbiting around LDS culture – its tragic, brutally shameful but when we get to part three the payoff is simply remarkable. That’s next week – part I – right here on Heart of the Matter.

Misconceptions about Catholicism

Okay, to the subject and person at hand. Father Christopher Gray of the Cathedral of the Madeleine, which is located downtown area of Salt Lake and is one of the most beautiful religious edifices in the state. Concomitant with the beauty of the building is this man who is employed in the works of God there – Father Christopher Gray.

Now, I grew up reading Bruce McConkie of the Mormon faith who said unabashedly that the Catholic church was in fact, the Whore of Babylon. Moving into Evangelicalism was not much better as the most ardent EvilGelicals would say things like: Catholics are NOT Christian. Catholics are going to hell. Catholics have a different gospel (but interestingly enough, not a different Jesus as Catholics and Evangelicals all endorse the Trinity.

Other things Catholicism has in common with Evangelicalism in addition to the Trinity is a view of

1. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus

2. The Virgin Birth

3. Christ’s infinite atonement

4. Eternal afterlife punishment

5. And innumerable agreements on sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., holy lifestyles, and the like.

What is really fascinating is Catholicism seems to have MORE in common with some factions of Evangelicalism than Evangelicalism has with its liberal brothers. So what’s the gig with the Catholics – especially among zealous Evangelicals? I was once one of them, and I have to admit that I was part of that group without really checking the facts.

Of course, some of the apparent glaring, “ungawdly” differences that separate Evangelicals and Catholics are said to be that Protestants claim “The Bible” is our authoritai! while the Catholics say, We hold the Bible and our traditions as equally authoritative. That one is sheer comedy to me because I’ve not met many Protestants who don’t blindly hold religious traditions up as just as authoritative as the Bible – perhaps we can talk about this.

And another big difference I’ve been taught between Catholics and Protestants is on the subject of salvation, perhaps more to the point, justification. And of course there is all the minutia people get all up in arms about like Maryology, Immaculate Conception, the hats that the Pope wears, nuns getting preggars, priests molesting boys, and all that stuff.

So I am sitting in Einstein’s working and across the room sits this bearded Catholic – collar and all. In time we exchange pleasantries and before I know it I become friends with “ONE OF THEM.” And something begins to happen. The Catholic I was able to become friends with actually possessed the ability to explain some things to me – a LOT of things to me – and the explanations are profound.

Add in the fact that he happens to be a Catholic priest who takes his faith seriously, he takes holy living seriously, he takes his role as a priest VERY seriously (which we will discuss) and after a few breakfasts I realized something – I established my views of Catholics and Catholicism off half truths and inflammatory rhetoric. Now, admittedly, there are probably few people on earth more differently inclined in our approaches to God – but by golly, my life as a follower of Jesus has been tremendously blessed through this friendship with . . . Father Christopher Gray.

And as a result of his taking the time and effort to explain things from an unfabricated, non-fictional, and often unapologetic stance, I have become a better Christian, not worse. You all know that no matter the religious institution, yours is truly not a fan. Christopher knows this too. But He has

Introduction

Welcome, my friend. In this first hour, let's start with a little about you. Origins, faith as a kid, interests, family, stuff like that. Explain what it takes to become a Catholic deacon and then a Priest.

THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT PRIESTHOOD

Now, what does it mean – to Roman Catholicism – to BE a priest? What are you doing? What does it represent? Are you really necessary to the life and salvation of those who congregate around you?

Priesthood and Personal Devotions

SHAWN INSERT

• Christopher’s personal devotions
• Daily Prayers
• Lifestyle
• Mass
• Visiting the needy
• Poverty
• Music
• Latin
• Self Flagellation
• Old School verses new order

Summarize the purpose and point of Catholicism.

• Confession
• Communion
• On being Catholic – records, proof
• History of reasons and pragmatisms
• Protestantism
• Orthodoxy

Let’s talk about sin. What is the goal of a Catholic toward sin, what is your job as a priest toward it? Homosexuality and the Faith. Holy living? Sin and the Religious Approach to it. Does a person HAVE TO be baptized CATHOLIC to enter heaven?

GO FOR ONE HOUR – TAKE A SPOT BREAK

“When we come back, some harder topics and opening up for your questions”

Doctrine and Theology

Mariology, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Confession, Excommunication, Money, Historical fugliness, The Pope, Rolls and memberships, Eucharist and Transubstantiation, The system of Catholicism world-wide, Hell, Heaven, Marriage and Divorce.

Eucharist and Interpretations

Tell us about the Eucharist. When Jesus instituted the supper, he had not yet been crucified. How then was the Eucharist his crucified body and blood? If, as the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that the Eucharist Wine is the literal blood of Christ, then how is that not violating the Old Testament law against drinking the blood of any flesh (Lev. 17:14)?

How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the actual body and blood of Christ if, by definition, a human body is only in one place at one time as Jesus' body was in the incarnation, especially when you realize that Jesus is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9).

The Roman Catholic Church says that individuals are not allowed to interpret the Bible, but that they must submit to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. How then can you know if the Catholic Church is correct if you can't check it against Scripture? Remember, Paul praised the Bereans for checking even what he said against scripture (Acts 17:11).

"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ," (CCC par. 85).

"…no one, relying on his own skill, shall,–in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine,–wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,–whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,–hath held and doth hold," (Trent, Session 4, "Decree Concerning the Edition, and the Use, of the Sacred Books")

Does the phrase "let each man be convinced his own mind" (Romans 14:5) mean that a person is able to look at the Scriptures and be fully convinced according to what he sees it says? If not, why not?

If the phrase "let each man before he convinced his own mind" means that he is able to interpret Scripture on his own, what does he do if he believes what he sees in Scripture contradicts the Roman Catholic Church's teaching? If the phrase "let each man before he convinced his own mind" means that he is able to interpret Scripture on his own, then doesn't that contradict the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church which denies you the right to interpret God's word regarding faith, morals, and doctrine in a manner inconsistent with what it proclaims?

How many verses has the Roman Catholic Church officially, infallibly interpreted? It is extremely low. How then do you know what is actually correct?

Jesus

Can you, as a Catholic, pray directly to Jesus, not going through Mary, and ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins? John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name…"

The Role of Jesus in Forgiveness

name, I will do it.

• If you did, would you be forgiven of all your sins?
• If you were forgiven by Jesus, then do you need all the rituals and sacraments of the RCC in order to be forgiven?
• If you’re not forgiven by Jesus when you pray to him and ask him to forgive you, then why is Jesus not enough to save you?

Questions About Mary

Mary

• Do you really believe that Mary is able to hear and understand the prayers of millions of people all over the world, simultaneously, in different languages, spoken, and thought?
• If you do believe has all of those abilities, how are you not attributing godlike abilities to her?
• Why pray to Mary when Jesus said to come to him (Matt. 11:28), ask him anything (John 14:14), and he has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18)? Isn't Jesus capable enough without Mary?
• Is Mary better than Jesus?
• "After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 972).

Oral Tradition and Its Origins

Oral tradition

• What exactly is oral tradition? Is it passed down from one person to another via whispering, talking, writing? Have you ever thought about this?
• Where does this oral tradition come from in present day? Is it in the Vatican only? If so, why? If not, then where is it?
• How is the oral tradition passed down? By word of mouth only? If so, how do you know it is true?
• Is all the oral tradition inspired and inerrant?
• Are these oral traditions immune from corruption through the many centuries and hundreds of generations of oral communication?
• Who then are these people who have this oral tradition?
• When is the oral tradition given to them?
• Is it given to them in the halls of the Vatican? Is there a special room where they meet, and everybody in it talks about things of ancient times?
• Do the members of the magisterium recognize what is ancient oral tradition and what is not? If so, how?
• If not, how does the Church know which oral traditions are true and which are false?
• What standard does the magisterium use to judge what is authentic oral tradition?

Salvation and the Gospel

Prayer

• Is a Protestant wrong for praying to Jesus alone and asking Jesus to forgive them all of his sins?

Salvation

• What is the saving gospel?
• Are you keeping the commandments of God?
• Are you doing what is necessary to be saved? In Roman Catholicism that which is necessary for salvation includes the church (CCC 846), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), sacraments (CCC 1129), service and witness to the faith (CCC 1816), keeping the ten commandments (CCC 2036 and 2070), and detachment from riches (CCC 2556).
• If you are keeping the commandments of God, do you also go to confession?
• Since it is possible for you to lose your salvation in Roman Catholicism, are you doing enough good works to keep yourself saved?

Scripture

• Is it okay to exceed what is written in Scripture and teach things that are not taught in Scripture as though they are doctrinally true?

My brother and friend – thank you . . .

Next week, Part One with Kristy Johnson and her amazing, disturbing, remarkable story. And remember – July 29th Sunday, right here at the CAMPUS church/studio 12 our annual HEART IN THE PARKING LOT including Open water baptisms and Roasted Wieners.

See you next week, here on HOTM.