Embracing a Cohesive Christian Life

“A humble knowledge of ourselves is a surer way to God than is the search for depth of learning.”
— Thomas a'Kempis

Hold, then to…
“We do not segment our lives, giving some time to God, some to our business or schooling, while keeping parts to ourselves. The idea is to live all of our lives in the presence of God, under the authority of God, and for the honor and glory of God. That is what the Christian life is all about.”
— R. C. Sproul

Introducing the Broadcast

Show 12 387 God – Part IV
The Holy Spirit
March 25th 2014

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism
— Salt Lake City Utah —
This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. —
Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity . . . Face to Face

And I’m your host Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.

We thank and praise the true and living God for allowing us to be part of this, His ministry. May He be with you – and us – tonight.

Announcements

Couple of announcements – five to be exact.

• The Heart of the Matter Television Network has been launched. If you live in or around the Salt Lake Valley you can turn into 19.3 on regular television broadcast TV – not cable, not dish, not direct. And you can pray that we will get picked up on these other networks in the future.

• We are streaming our verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. teachings live over the internet on Sundays at 10am and 2:30 Mountain time. Tune in and watch.

• We have a store available at www.hotm.tv. There you can find our own proprietary products we have created to help keep you informed, entertained and in the Word. For example, you will find our books, four CDs of the Word of God put to music, and two short films that talk about S-E-X called girl and boy and are excellent and relatable to the teen and young adult audiences.

• We are launching our own quarterly newspaper in the next six or seven months and we are accepting submissions for those of you who would like to submit well-written articles on Christianity today.

(TAKE A LOOK – Run new spot here)

All of this is made possible by the will and ways of God, your prayers, and financial support IF you are led and in a position (limited fixed income people do NOT qualify).

Legal Proceedings and Perspectives

Well, from what I can tell, the lawsuit against the LDS was dropped overseas.

The premise was somewhat unique and I suppose it was “too unique” for the British courts to uphold so they tossed it to the curb. I’ve read that the LDS asked for their attorney’s fees to be paid for by the plaintiff’s side and the court said no – pay your own fees. The LDS attorneys fought this decision saying that it would appear they have lost and I guess the courts said, “too bad.”

But you know, while I’ve been intrigued by this case, and wasn’t all too sure it would ever amount to anything, there was something sort of… distasteful about it. I don’t know how else to put it. It’s not that I don’t see Mormonism as one gigantic fraud and it’s not that I don’t truly detest what it is founded on (nor am I blind to what it does to many honest people seeking God) but… I suppose the distaste boils down to the fact that I am just not a fan of lawsuits.

Sometimes I know they are necessary – like in the case of extreme negligence on the part of institutions against human beings. But I think in the arena of religious charlatans and fraudulent spiritual doctrine there are better ways to expose the lies than through legal action. It just seems there are better methods to get at the Mormon church.

Engaging with Different Beliefs

…maintained that there are better ways to reach the LDS than picketing their General Conferences or Temple Pageants too. In my opinion, picketing a religion is even more absurd than suing one. I think information is good – great, in fact, but it has to be accessed by inquisitive (and even non-inquisitive) LDS folks on their own terms. This is why online ministries like UTLM.org and IRR and Bill McKeever’s methods are far more effective than over-zealous picketing of well-meaning LDS people (and their families) who have gathered together for some event or another.

Admittedly, television programs like this lie somewhere in between the polarized extremes of zealous street preaching and the quiet dissemination of informative information. Perhaps a good rule of thumb Christians can adopt is to speak the truth in a forum that allows LDS people the right to privately receive or investigate it all the while affording them the right to log-off or to turn the channel if they wish. To me, whether it be LDS Conferences, abortion clinics, or gay-pride parades, if the Body does NOT somehow police itself (and our zealots – and I have no idea how) we will find ourselves at the receiving end of lawsuits in the days and years to come… with the true message of Jesus Christ lost as a result. And with that, how about a Moment from the Word.

Exploring the Concept of the Trinity

We have been talking a lot about the man-made word Trinity of late – which I have painfully discovered is quite a sacred term to many believing Christians. One of the major issues I have had with the definition of the term is regarding what our theologians have labeled as “Eternal Sonship.” What this means is that in the pre-creative period – meaning from the beginning – God has existed in a Father, Son, Holy Spirit trinity of three individual beings, persons, or entities. I’ve had the relationship that existed from this time between the father and the Son described to me as reflecting the relationship that exists between an earthly Father and an earthly son. I personally have issue with this not only from how I have long understood God but from how I believe God is described in the Bible – particularly the Old Testament – relative to Eternal Sonship.

Hebrews 13:8

This brings me to a passage in the Word that I find quite intriguing. Ready? It’s short and says:

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8

Other Bible translations put it similarly, including the ASV, the Modern King James, the RSV and the TCNT. The only major differences in translation come from the literal (and more literal) Greek translations which say:

“Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to-day, and to the ages [to come].”
The Darby Translation

The Weymouth (which says):

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day–yes, and to the ages to come.”
Weymouth Translation

And Young’s Literal Translation, which says it this way:

“Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages.”
Young’s Literal Translation

I’m not going to get into the differences between forever and ages here but the point in question is what do people think it means when the passage says, “Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, and to day, and forever?”

“Is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, to-day and forever?”

OF COURSE He is… but what does this mean?

Reflection on Jesus Christ

I think ANY Christian on earth would agree that the LOGOS has always been the same and taking on flesh did not alter His make-up in the least. But in light of this passage, it’s important to make note of a couple of things:

First, Jesus Christ did not become “Jesus” until (the Word) was made flesh. Only then was the Word given the name Jesus. So we know this verse is speaking of Jesus – God incarnate when the Logos was made flesh – and not the pre-mortal Son. In other words if He was Jesus Christ from the foundation of the World then this passage could not be true because He became flesh… and therefore changed… and therefore is NOT the same yesterday, today and forever.

Get it? This is a very…

Jesus in the Context of the Mormon/Christian Debate

An important point in the Mormon/Christian debate is the understanding of Jesus' existence before the foundation of the world. The LDS suggest that Jesus was known by His name even prior to His birth. The Word became flesh and was given the name Yeshua. This is who the writer of Hebrews refers to as "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Understanding Jesus' Humanity

Additionally, we need to consider this passage more deeply. It is unique to Jesus the Christ, not Jesus, Son of Mary and Joseph. Jesus, Son of Mary and Joseph, evolved, matured, and changed from birth.

As Luke documented: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

• Luke 2:52

Thus, the passage in Hebrews speaks not of the pre-incarnate Logos but of Jesus once incarnate. The focus is on Jesus after overcoming sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., and the grave – at which point He remains unchanged.

The Importance of this Distinction

Why is this distinction crucial? It maintains the truth and aligns with worshiping God in Spirit and Truth. It doesn't detract from Him as Savior, God, and King; rather, it emphasizes His sacrifices for us. This distinction matters because it addresses His humanity and His immortality post-resurrection. Before resurrection, Jesus experienced death, which signifies change.

In our modern context, it's easy to overlook that God became Man and triumphantly overcame flesh for our sake. Misinterpreting "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" as referring to His pre-incarnate state undermines the humility and suffering He endured for our salvation.

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

Clarifying Misunderstandings in Doctrine

We've frequently discussed God at Heart of the Matter, aiming to rectify flawed Mormon doctrines and, as challenging as it may be, non-biblical Christian traditions to establish biblical truth.

Our focus starts with God. Recently, we explored "Integration," showing God's attempts at relationships with humanity: first through Adam and Eve (which failed), then through Moses' Law (which failed), and finally through grace and faith, integrating God into redeemed humans.

Most believe God's indwelling is through the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Ghost, which some consider a mislabel for our time.

Let's delve into what believers call the "third member of the Trinity," or the Holy Spirit, which differs from the LDS perspective as a literal spirit being destined for a physical body.

The LDS View on the Holy Ghost

body of His own – like the Father, and Son, (and you and I) possess. The reason the LDS Holy Ghost isn’t in a body right now is because He has to do spiritual things that a physical body would hinder Him from performing. But again, the LDS have long taught He will ultimately get one. “Hardy har har har,” laugh the Christians at this notion. How stupid is the thought!” Additionally, LDS doctrine plainly states that the Holy Ghost does exist in a spirit body presently. Having a spirit body before having a physical body is standard fare in Mormon teachings – and the Holy Spirit is no exception. Because He has his own spirit body the LDS teach that the Holy Spirit is incapable of personally being in more than one place at one time. To explain how His influence can be felt by people in different locations throughout the world, the LDS liken this limitation to that of the sun in the sky that too, can only be in one place at one time but whose rays and warmth and influence can be felt all over the world. So it is with the LDS Holy Ghost, they claim.

Understanding the LDS Godhead

In essence, the LDS holy ghost is perhaps the most mysterious of all members of their Godhead, but He is, according to their doctrine understandable in the following six points:

• a pre-incarnate spirit being
• with a human spirit form
• with a spirit body that was created by God the Father (just as Jesus was – but Jesus came down and took on flesh)
• who performs the will of God in spiritual matters.
• That he can only be at one place at one time but can radiate his influence world wide, and
• the LDS Holy Ghost will gain a body when His work among the children of men is done.

The fact that the LDS Holy Ghost is mysterious ought not to make us Christians smirk too big because quite frankly He is MORE mysterious in our faith than theirs.

Christian Perspective on the Holy Spirit

Before we get into the Christian ways and means of understanding the Holy Spirit, I want to reiterate that I have utmost love and respect for God and all of the loving, selfless extensions (of Himself) He has made to reach and teach Man. I worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God, and do not exclude any of them from being actual, and real, and completely Him. More and more I am astounded by fellow believers who cast me aside because I either question – or refuse – certain views they believe are true. The topic of eternal Sonship has been admittedly difficult and full of conflagrations but when it comes to the Holy Spirit I find myself AS A CONFIRMED AND DEVOTED FOLLOWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST more confused than ever – and the creedal explanations of the Holy Spirit do nothing but confuse me more.

Now, allow yourselves to really think about this for a minute. In fact, let’s, just “for a minute,” say that the classic Trinitarian explanation of God in the pre-creative period is correct – that there are three “persons” or core-essences, or entities that co-exist equally, uncreated and eternal. Let’s also say that we agree that there is the Father and the Son – His Son, His only begotten Son from the beginning, who relate to each other like a Father and Son relate to each other on earth. Let’s say we admit to all of these, these theological demands. IF these things are true what’s the deal with the Holy Spirit? I mean, He’s not the Son or A Son, so how does He fit in to this co-equal, co-eternal threesome of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Ever hear the line, “Three’s a crowd?” from the way I see it, with the Father having an only begotten Son, the Holy Spirit must feel a bit like a third wheel? Right? I mean throughout the New Testament Paul and the

Importance of Sonship in Faith

Like (Jesus too) use illustrations and parables that place a Son (in a household) of supreme value (as compared to others like servants and slaves) right? So even within the context of New Testament teachings by Jesus and others maintain that in relationship with God a Son of God is the ultimate.

But here in the Three’s a Crowd Trinity we have a Father and a Son from all eternity . . . and then we have the . . . (wha, wha, whaaaaa) Holy Spirit. Since He is not a Son to the Father, is He an uncle? A neighbor? All this respectful kidding aside (and look – God knows I am really do try and understand all this traditional rigamarole) what ARE we to say about the Holy Spirit . . . especially when He too is described as a “person,” a being with personality, with a core essence . . . but an core personality that is God from the beginning that is in relationship with God?

The Role of the Holy Spirit

Do you worship the Holy Spirit? If you do, do you give Him equal time and attention as you do to the Son? The Father? I want to worship One God in Spirit and in truth.

Worship and Unity in the Trinity

The Bible tells me God is one, that His Word became flesh and dwelled among us (because God so loved the World) and because of His Son incarnate I am able to have His Spirit upon me, and in me – testifying of the life and work of the Son who reconciled the world for the Father.

Granted, the LDS fairy tales of a pre-incarnate spirit getting bodies and being limited to one location at a time can go straight to where religious fairy tales go.