Show 59: Four Approaches, Three Major Fails – Part II

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in truth. And I am Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host. How about a prayer to God – I need it?

Introduction to the Four Major Stances

Well, last week we started in our three-part series on the Four Stances and what they represent to the world in terms of doctrine and practice. The four major stances are ORTHODOXY, PROTESTANTISM, and RESTORATIONISM. I've written on the board the majority of faith expressions that fall under these broad categories for your benefit (and mine, quite frankly), and last week we talked about Authority and Apostolic succession. At the end of the show, I let the cat out of the bag – that the biblical solution to all of the muck these three stances have contributed to was:

1. Unnecessary – in light of irrefutable evidences in the Bible that Jesus had come back to them then.
2. Really ugly in the face of the biblical attitude Jesus and the Apostles had toward the things of this world, the authorities of Man, their dress, their power, and their desire to bring people into captivity rather than bringing them out into liberty.
3. I showed that the claims of authority and apostolic succession are not proven with any certainty – and again – the GREATEST proof of this is what they have DONE with the authority they claim to have either been given OR that they claim to possess from the Bible narrative itself.

Addressing Comments and Misunderstandings

Now, a couple of follow-ups to last week. First, someone commented that our Talking to Mormons clip said that “God would never let his church leave the earth,” and then a few minutes later, I said, “I don’t think the church today is necessarily immune to destruction.” For starters, this can be explained, but even if it can’t, I rejoice in the idea that we can support a ministry that may say one thing while I say another – and still love and support each other. We see through a glass darkly. But what the context of that Cartoon clip was talking about was when speaking with Mormons, who do not believe that Jesus has returned and are waiting for Him to come back and take his church, God would never let the church Jesus established fall into total apostasy. I agree with that completely. However, since Jesus came and took his church-bride, I was speaking to another phase – the Body of Christ. This Body exists in heaven and on earth presently. But my point was that since His church-bride has been taken as promised, I’m not sure in this day and age the body can’t evaporate up altogether – I said I wasn’t sure, but that it seems possible.

Secondly, some have said that Jesus' return was impossible because it would ignore all the things that have been written and said over the years by the traditions themselves. That’s like saying Steven Jobs' Apple couldn’t have been what he said it was because China still uses abacuses.

Historical References on Jesus' Return

Let me quickly give you what some of the Christian leaders over the ages have said about Jesus' return:

“And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place.” – Eusebius 314 AD

“It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands.” – Athanasius 345 AD

“And so the times of the coming of Christ, the leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, SHALL PROVE HIM TO HAVE COME, EVEN

The Coming of Christ and Its Implications

ON THE GROUND OF THE TIMES DESCRIBED . . . “
Tertullian, 200 AD

“Remembering this saving commandment and all those things WHICH CAME TO PASS for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, THE SECOND AND GLORIOUS COMING AGAIN.”
Chrysostom, Liturgy

“I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem.”
Origin, the 100’s AD

The Destruction of Jerusalem

“Tis evident that when Christ speaks of His coming; His being revealed; His coming in His kingdom or His kingdom coming, He has respect to His appearing in those great works of His power, Justice, and Grace, which should be in the DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM and other extraordinary Provinces which should attend it.”
Jonathan Edwards 1776

RC Sproul's Perspective

RC SPROUL (from The Last DaysThe final years of the old covenant age—fulfilled in the first century, not future end times. According to Jesus page 158)
“The coming of Christ in AD 70 was a coming in judgment on the Jewish nation, indicating the end of the Jewish age and the FULFILLMENT of a day of the Lord. Jesus really did come in judgment at this time, FULFILLING his prophecy in the Olivet discourse.”

I’ll lay out some scriptural supports next week which will cause every critic of this fourth correct stance to have to say: Jesus and His apostles were wrong, OR they will have to admit He has already returned – and if He has already returned, they are just as awkwardly left having to explain the passages that describe the end of material religionA fulfilled system of temples, rituals, and laws—replaced by direct spiritual relationship..

Understanding Sin in Apostolic Teachings

But to this week's topic – sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. – what on earth do these three major camps do with sin? The answers, again and from what the New Testament clearly describes, are stunning. Now, let’s step back to the Apostolic age and that the Record describes as happening in that day when the Bride was under the governance of the Apostles. In the Apostolic Record we are presented with some information that is difficult to integrate because on the one hand the Apostles wrote things relative to the efficacious work of Jesus on behalf of the world, and on the other hand they were writing instructions for the churches in that day and age.

Because men and women have decided to ignore the facts of Jesus promised and prophesied return for His bride, all three religion approaches, and all of those who fall under them, speak and teach and address sin in a manner that tries to be consistent with what was written (and/or what men established by tradition) which causes them to entirely miss the big picture. Remember, my friends, remember – the Apostles' job was to oversee, establish, guide and protect the bride of Christ until Jesus came to save her.

They were dealing with incomprehensible tensions that came from the Greeks, the Jews, the Romans, and the Gnostics. As a means to keep the Bride united as one and free from infiltration that would surely corrupt the bride, the apostles spoke straight up strongly against forces, doctrines, and practices that served to threaten their survival. Let me give you an example:

In Paul’s letter to Corinthians, he writes:

1st Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded

Scriptural Context on Gender and Church Roles

to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These instructions were right and perfect for that day and age and to them/then – meaning the bride – as culturally, especially within Judaism – women were without rights and for them to suddenly step up and talk in a gathering would have ADDED to the pressures that the Bride was under – at that time, and in that day. So Paul wrote this. But we note that Paul also wrote in Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. If we are all one, how on earth could women be silenced? Context, time, purpose folks – Not speaking was to them then for the bride, that all are one if Christ Jesus is to us now.

Paul also wrote to the church at Rome and said in the epistle's conclusion:

1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you–for she also became a leader (prostasis – a woman set over others) of many, and of myself.

Additionally, isn’t it interesting that the first human to witness the resurrected Lord was not a male but Mary Magdalene. But not only that, the first person commissioned post resurrection was this female as Jesus instructed HER to go and tell/teach the apostles all that He had instructed her to say and tell them.

Various Stances on Gender Roles

So we take all of this context, and then we say: Well what have the three Main stances done with it all?

The Protestants, claiming to follow the Bible, take Paul’s words about being silent literally and stick to men being over their pulpits. Most of the Restorationists do the same thing. Those that don’t but allow women to speak in church enter into total irony as they claim to follow the Bible – but make exceptions when it suits them – proving their hypocrisy. But what about the wisdom and insights of Orthodoxy – who not only look to scripture but apparently also look to their traditions to prove what is right?

Simply put, Orthodoxy – Greek, Roman, Russian – preclude women from the priesthood. And in this we can see that the so-called benefit of following men and their insights has failed them from abandoning cultural practices and embracing biblically based liberties. Of course, Orthodoxy – like the Mormons – will, as a means to justify their biases, highlight the fact that they were the first to give women this right or that – but bottom line, their apostles continue to endorse antiquated misogyny – when the doctrine is in place for total emancipation in the scripture – its just in that day the world was not ready for the practice.

The True Apostolic Warning

Soooo . . . let’s not forget, that as a means to keep the Bride united as one and free from infiltration that would surely corrupt her and allow the gates of hell to prevail against her, the true apostles spoke straight up strongly against forces, doctrines, and practices that served to threaten their survival. With the rescue and saving of her in that day and age, the attempts to keep the apostolic brick and mortar religion going is wholly unnecessary.

Especially as it relates to . . . sin. In other words, what are the generally established approaches these three main groups take toward the term sin?

So let’s start with the basics – all three groups believe that there is such a thing as sin today, and all three groups believe that Jesus paid for sin – to some degree or another. I say to some degree or another because there is a broad spectrum of views relative to sin – when we think about it the way these respective groups view sin plays a huge role in their approach to the faith.

So let's speak first to sin within orthodoxy – and I am speaking pretty much of Roman Catholicism and Greek and Russian Orthodoxy and other lesser-known expressions of Orthodoxy. First of all, Catholics believe that people not only experience of Adam’s sin but they are guilty for it. Orthodoxy believes that while all people bear the consequences of Adam’s sin,

Understanding Sin and Confession in Orthodoxy and Catholicism

Sin is understood differently within Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism. Orthodoxy asserts that Adam’s sin is hereditary and does not categorize sin into mortal or venial as Catholics do. In Orthodoxy, any sin not repented is regarded as mortal or damnable. On the other hand, Catholicism has distinct views due to its belief in purgatory, which Orthodoxy does not accept and considers a later development.

The Nature of Sin in Catholicism

In Catholicism, committing a mortal sin without repentance before deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God. can result in eternal damnation in hell. Venial sins, while weakening the believer, may result in a stay in purgatory before one ascends to heaven. According to Father Christopher, a mortal sin must be serious, the person must have full knowledge of its severity, and it must be committed deliberately. Examples of mortal sins often revolve around sexual acts but can also include violence and corruption. For venial sins, Catholics are not required to confess.

Confession Practices in Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy emphasizes confession, viewing it as one of its "Holy Mysteries" or Sacraments, where divine forgiveness through Christ is achieved. Confession is made to God in the presence of a priest, who offers pastoral advice. Orthodox believers are encouraged to confess not out of hubris or self-determination but to humbly conform to God’s establishment through His church. Priests, as spiritual physicians, guide in spiritual healing, akin to a surgeon healing the body.

The role of confession in Orthodoxy is integral to maintaining the soul’s well-being and illustrates the church's authority and tradition. While confession can lead to shame and guilt, it is perceived as a necessary act of allegiance and rite for spiritual refinement. The control over confession exemplifies the church’s authority over sin, emphasizing the importance of spiritual guidance through confession.

The Contrast with Protestant Views

Unlike Orthodoxy, restorationist churches, which have some similarities with Orthodoxy, demand confession as a means to scrutinize and discipline sin. This, in part, led to Martin Luther's actions against the Catholic Church’s practices, reflecting a divergence from Orthodox and restorationist practices in understanding and dealing with sin.

Understanding Sin and Forgiveness

When I read Here I Stand by Roland Baiton over twenty years ago, I realized that Luther's plight was similar to mine – through Catholicism he could not find the surety that he was forgiven of all of his crimes. I want you to know that this is the goal, and people wind up either constantly in confession (if they are earnest for God) or they lie to themselves, or more typically, to others.

God KNOWS that this is what religion does to people, He knows what priesthoods and mortifications cause. That’s why when it comes to sin, God . . . Took . . . care . . . of . . . it. Protestantism is a “cluster-flew” when it comes to sin. Like a troop of bi-polar traffic cops, they are all over the board with directions, opinions, practices, and hypocrisies.

Protestant Views on Sin

Where Orthodoxy is more inclined to create lists of sins (especially the Catholics – who are masters of master sin-lists), many Protestants generally begin by ignoring the sins of an individual (who has yet converted) and then incrementally, as the convert is supposed to mature, puts the pressure on for holy living – in order to have acceptance. Unless you attend a Protestant Megachurch, which uses sin to its political advantages and manipulations, but does little to police the sin life of others – but they still talk about it – they ALWAYS talk about it.

Protestants claim sin is sin, but they are huge on picking out their favorite flavors of sin and making them particularly icky (and again, this is all on a spectrum – and generally focuses on sins the flesh more than sins of the heart). In other words, being a practicing homosexual is always worse than being an adulterer, but being an adulterer is the worst of the hetero worsts – with porn (and all that goes with it) following on in right behind. Some focus on drunkenness and drugs, some on dating but what is fascinating is generally speaking the sins of the heart – like meanness, gossip, coldness, being mean to sinners, stinginess – stuff like that – is almost always ignored by Protestants in general while the sins of the flesh are put up in lights.

Different Perspectives on Sin Within Protestantism

Of course, there is a wide range of views on sin within Protestantism – with some on the one hand not caring about it at all under the auspices of hyper-grace, and others being more legalistic than a chastity belt manufacturer. Here’s the gig – sin – hamartia in the Greek – simply means missing the mark. God and His holiness and ways are the mark – seen in perfect love – and guess what? Humans miss the mark, folks! That’s what we do! When God created us, I think He said in His mind:

This is what humans will do:

“They will breathe, they will eat, they will eat and drink, they will eliminate, and they will miss the mark.”

And God, so loving the world, took care of that last part. Completely. Realizing this, all Christians have to try and figure out what that means.

Let me explain:

Sin (which we all do even if we don’t know it sometimes) and Jesus

Paid for Paid for Paid for Paid for Paid for Paid for all.
But really some if you have sins of some all sin but
hard to get sin but not faith and (the elect). people
its benefits (Hierarchy) then repent They are are too
and pay for all good. The rest stubborn
your sin with are screwed to accept it
contrition, tears, time, service

Brutal Legalists
Mormonism
Most popular Protestant view
Protestant Calvinism
Protestant Arminianism
TRUTH
R E L I G I O N

So, let's get to this last view – the fourth view – the view of Jesus having had the victory for all over all things on our behalf and wrapping that former age of the Apostolic Church up. Let me begin by looking at the typical way Christians of all sorts see the human race.

Understanding Sin and Redemption

Today from birth –

They see us born dead in sin. Dead in sin because of Adam. There are passages that allude to this and so taken out of context, the church has stood on this premise in some sense or another. This is the first mistake. Why? How?

Let me present this to you simply and as straight as I can: Prior to Christ, the entire world was born in sin (due to Adam and the fall). Not that we are guilty of the sin, but we are susceptible to committing sin in our flesh because of Him. Got that? Scripture says:

“The WAGES of Sin” – which we all commit – “is death.” From Adam to Christ death and resurrection, all people suffered the wages of sin – by dying in the flesh of course, but more applicably, when physical death occurred all were separated from God – even Abraham – and were in Sheol, what we call hell.

Misconceptions About Sin

The wages of Sin is death and prior to Christ, all died physically and remained dead spiritually in being separated from God and in Sheol. But here’s the deal – Romans 5:8 tells us:

“But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

Do you know what that means, it means that when we were all in sin, dead in sin with Adam, Christ died for us. Now who is the us? Most Christians think that us is for believers. Not so. While we were yet sinners Christ died for US THE HUMAN Race. His death for sin was especially important to believers, but Christ’s death was for all, which is why John wrote, speaking of Christ:

1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

By the way, world there means “world” here – for the WHOLE WORD, Jesus is the expiation for our sins. The wages of sin is death, right? It is. So who died – suffered death – for the sins of the whole world? Jesus, of course, suffered the substitutionary death for all of us and our sin. All. Nearly 2000 years ago.

So if or since Jesus paid the price of death for all of the world’s sin, why are Christians still talking about sin? Why are they saying that all people are born in sin? The sin has been paid! How are we born in it? It has either been paid for (and if it has it is a non-event since it was paid for by all) OR it has not and we are all still trying to get sins forgiven and we are going to hell if they aren’t and all of that.

New Perspective Post-Christ

Now, let me tell you how we ought to be seeing ourselves SINCE Christ. Ready?

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:14:

For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all (that is Christ) therefore (listen, now) therefore all . . . have . . . died.

Prior to Christ all were dead in sin, and suffered the spiritual separation from God as a result. But now, BECAUSE he paid for the sins of the world THEN, nobody is born dead in sin, but all are born dead in Him. While we were yet sinners Christ paid for our sins and we are all – all – through His substitutionary death, as having paid and suffered for our sins. We are all dead in Him.

Do you get what Paul is saying there? If the wages of sin is death (separation from God and a destination called hell) but Jesus PAID FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, and we, IN HIM, have all experienced death for our sin, God is not looking at any one as sinful. None. He is not angry and taking a tally in His books of who is naughty and who is nice.

Jesus, His son, paid for the sin, while we were still sinners, and as a result all human beings are, as Paul says, Dead in Him. Not dead in sin. Dead in Him. Whether people realize this or not is irrelevant to the fact. Listen to what Paul says in Colossians 1:20-22:

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind.

Ministry of Reconciliation

by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Listen to what Paul says, speaking of the ministry of reconciliation that he as an apostle was given, describes that ministry of reconciliation in 2nd Corinthians 5:19, and says

19 . . . that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God has given us apostles the ministry of reconciliation, which means, namely . . . “that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” Such a passage!

Impact of Christ's Sacrifice

In other words, because of His work for the world, none will die and have God say with a mouth full of wrathful fire – Because of your sin justice is necessary and that justice is re going to hell.

Jesus DIED for the wages of all of our sin, which was death, and as a result, all of us since are dead in Him. All. So let’s move past this idea that we are all dead in sin and start preaching the truly good news – that all are actually dead in Him. Start seeing each other in this light, start realizing exactly how far-reaching Jesus' substitutionary death was for the sins of the world.

The whole world. No exceptions. Don’t add qualifiers to it by suggesting that a person has to believe to receive the blood as a means to have their sins paid for – remember, while we were yet sinners the debt was paid for all in full for all. That is the unmerited, unencumbered gift God has given to all – sins paid in full. And get this, as a result, all will be resurrected – all. Why? Because all are without sin due to Him!

Rethinking Sin and Resurrection

The wages of sin is death, HE paid for the sin, we (as in everybody) no longer remain in the grave! We will all experience rising from the grave. The good, the bad and the ugly. All.

Okay. So this is obviously a VERY different picture than the standard views of the religionists who mitigate God in Jesus reconciling the world to himself, right? I am not a universalist – all of this is done by and through Christ, nor am I suggesting that all in the afterlife are equal. Far from it, as the Bible is clear on the laws of sowing and reaping.

But when it comes to the topic of SIN – and SIN alone, all of it – past, present, and future fell squarely on the shoulders of Jesus, who bore it on our behalf, suffered the wages of it (on our behalf) and then . . . (Listen now) . . .

. . . and then He rose again. Where Orthodoxy, Protestants and Restorationists tend to make a huge difference between “sinners and Saints,” and then make their respective eternal destinations a burning hell or glorious heaven, the universal propitiation for the sin of the world by Jesus has closed the entrance to hell and thrown open the heavens, making it the final destination of all peoples – all – through Christ alone.

But to suggest that just because all enter heaven (due to the reconciliation of Christ) and receive resurrected bodies of some sort, does not mean the afterlife experience is the same for all. This is just not so – and scripture manifestly proves it.

But listen – thus far – and I have only shared with you a few passages that speak to Jesus' total victory over sin, death and the grave, we offer our children and the world, a view that is much more reasonable, respectable and scripturally viable than what these other three push – and have pushed out. It’s the great newsThe message that prophecy is fulfilled and we are free to pursue God in love and liberty—without fear or religious control. – and I want to wrap the show up by showing you a clip of my explaining the Great News to my grandsons, Lazar and Samson.

Now, I want you to know I have never discussed these things with them nor have I ever preached Jesus or God to them – but I have used God in my language with them. These boys were not coached in any way by me or their parents. We are taking them as they are – honest and raw. And I want to show you how I choose

Justice and Consequences

to approach my grandchildren with the Great news.

(RUN TAPE here)

We’ll see you next week. Here on Heart of the Matter.

A Conversation About Justice

FOR THE BOYS – not prepped or coached, never talk to them about any of this. Totally off the cuff.

So, let's just talk together for a minute. What do you think about the idea that most people do good things and bad things in their lives? Now, when it comes to doing good no problem. We pretty much love it when people do good. But what about when people do bad things? Well, I want to talk to you about two words that are related to doing bad things – justice and consequences. And we are going to talk about them in three ways. (ON BOARD) So let's talk about justice and consequences.

The Three Aspects

LAZER AND SAMSONS THE WORLD THAT AND THEN IN HEAVEN
HOME LAZER AND SAMSON
LIVE IN

PAPA AND MAMA POLICE AND JUDGE GOD
(DRAW THEM) (DRAW THEM) (DRAW HIM)

Justice Justice Justice
Consequences Consequences Consequences

Castle destroyed Steal your bike ALL THE BAD THAT
Pull hair Hit your papa in the mouth WE ALL DO
JESUS

Justice and Consequences

Justice and Consequences – they are related to each other. In other words, for there to be true justice there must be consequences or justice cannot exist.