Acknowledgment and Gratitude

“Does it make any sense that Jesus came “to set the captives free” and “open the prison doors” only to have most people end-up after this life being tortured in an inescapable fire forever?” — Jaques Assimovrinko

Eternal Punishment: Part VI

Show 51 427
December 23rd, 2014

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, this is Heart of the Matter where Religion meets Jesus Christ face to face. I’m your host Shawn McCraney.

Acknowledging Our Team

Well we’re almost to the end of the year and before we get into our message tonight I want to take a minute and personally thank all who are involved in putting the show together on a weekly basis – in most cases for years on end. All of them have contributed an enormous amount of time and resources to support this ministry and they have stuck with us through thick and thin.

So here “in the house” we have our operators – Wendy J., Linda C., and Denita W. They bring the spirit of service and love (with a tad bit of seasoning) to the ambiance of the show. I love each of them very much. Thank you ladies for your devoted service.

We have Derrick W – D – on cameras and lights. Derrick is also the greeter here at the show and has the ability to make friends with anyone. He and his wife are very generous people with a tremendous work ethic. Their dedication to the ministry and their love for others is inspiring. I love them like my own siblings. Thank you, D and D.

We have Kathy “MH”, “Merle H.” and Seth M in what we call the cage – which is the brains of the operation. These three are like a team of surgeons cutting here, sewing there, and sometimes just having to throw their hands and say, “it all yours, God.” Every week they are the ones who get the shows out to you visually, audibly, and in the proper formats. I am so grateful to each of them and their tireless dedication to the cause – especially since they are often wondering exactly what the cause is! But I think they all know at the heart of it all is the Lord and King Jesus – because that is who they serve. I love you guys. Thank you so much.

Refreshments have voluntarily been handled by a number of people over the years but special thanks to Larry G. for his constant supply of donuts, cupcakes and other pastries that he brings week in and week out. We then have Kathy MH who (among many other things) cleans the studio/church every week voluntarily and without complaint, takes care of the kids all day Sunday with Linda, prepares the food and actually drives the trash from the building away in her car! When Jesus says the greatest among us would be servants Kathy MH sets the bar in my life.

(And though she is as stubborn as a “jacketh asseth” and calls me out on whatever she wants, this ministry would not function without her. And speaking of not functioning we have Derrick and Denita who fill all your orders and handle all the finances for the ministry and church – including taxes, bills, and keeping me out of jail – thank you for your countless hours of devotion to the ministry and the King.

Mary, my wife, week in and week out is responsible for graphics in addition to managing the ups and downs of being married to me. If she could only write a book. Week in and out, she is either driving me to or picking me up from an airport, making travel plans, caring for the family while wondering at times if she is still married – a true unsung hero to me personally. Thank you for all you do. I love you very much.

Cassidy Shawn manages all the thousands of emails that come in and creates all the video spots we use on the show. She has been a devout supporter in time and talents and has helped guide some very important decisions in the ministry. I am grateful for her wisdom and knowledge of the Lord. Mallory Lundqvist creates music from the word and is a constant supporter from Sweden by prayer and phone calls and Delaney Belle, well bottom line, she has simply sacrificed.

Reflections on Gratitude

Our time together as Dad and daughter since she was 11 years old so I could be involved what you watch each week. She’s now 21 and getting ready to get involved full time.

All of these people mean the world to me and I thank God for them and their support. I thank God for their examples of Christianity, for their honesty, for their devotion to the King.

Finally we thank all of you who tune in – friend or foe – and want you to know no matter what, we do love you – even if you are a Calvinist. We thank those who have supported this ministry by telling others about it, who send us information, and who have supported us financially.

And last to be named but always first, we thank the true and living God for loving us so much He sent His only begotten Son to save us and for the blessing we have each week to get up here and talk openly about Him and to share Him with others.

We could not accomplish anything without Him and His patient approbation.

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

Understanding the Lake of Fire

All right, we left off last week talking about hell – what the Bible says about it and what it doesn’t. Let’s wrap our topic up – and the year – by talking about the Lake of Fire.

Last week we proved through scripture that hell gives up its dead. And then we read that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life are tossed into the lake of fire. What is this place all about?

Purpose of the Lake of Fire

Let’s begin by asking who was this lake created for? Guess what? Scripture tells us. In fact, in Matthew 25:41 Jesus tells us that, at the judgment of the sheep and the goats, He will say to those on his left hand: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into “everlasting fire,” prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Take note, the place that the King James calls a place of “everlasting fire” was NOT prepared for Man. To me, if something was not prepared for human beings but was prepared for fallen “once heavenly creations” (like Satan and His angels) it may not have the capacity or purpose to retain the souls of Men.

Sort of like holding a gorilla in a stucco room made for children’s Sunday school. It will never suffice for holding man because it was never intended for him in the first place.

Additionally, there are some believers who think that the Lake of Fire is where Satan and his angels live presently but scripture suggests otherwise. Ephesians 2:2 describes Satan as “the prince of the power of the air” and 1st Peter 5:8 describes him as a “roaring lion walking about.” Additionally, Revelation 20:7 and 10 tells us that Satan “will” be thrown into the Lake of Fire so I think we are mistaken to believe he is there now.

Location of the Lake of Fire

Finally, when we speak of the lake of fire where does scripture say it is located? You may be surprised. Revelation 14:10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.”

From this we can clearly see that the Lake of Fire IS IN THE PRESENCE of SATAN AND HIS ANGELS!

So are we to think that those who get tossed INTO this lake (which is in the presence of the Lamb and His angels) are burned forever and ever and ever in the presence of the Lamb? This is what those passages seem to intimate, don’t they? I'm going to get back to them and the words they use in a minute.

In any case, we Christians talk about…

Understanding The Lake of Fire

Real burning in flames and “eternal suffering” I would suggest that what they are really speaking of is the Lake of Fire and the King James descriptions of it. So far I think it is fairly safe to say in summary of all we’ve talked about that:

• Hell is not the Lake of Fire.
• The Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels, and
• The Lake of Fire is a future experience for those who have been in hell, came out, and discovered that their names were NOT written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
• The Lake of Fire is in the presence of the Lamb and His angels.
• And according to the King James Revelation 14:10 those in the lake of fire will (to quote scripture):
  • drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
  • which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation
  • that they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
  • that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
  • that they have no rest day nor night,
  • AGAIN, according to the King James they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

The Nature of the Lake of Fire

So what is this Lake of Fire really? Revelation describes it with one declarative sentence:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

Every human being experiences the first death, right? 1st Corinthians 15:22 says it – “For as in Adam all die.” But not everyone will experience this “second death.” Apparently it is only going to be experienced by those who are cast into the Lake of Fire. And again, who are these? Revelation describes them, saying “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Now, let me pause here, for clarity's sake, and sort of gather up all we have discussed thus far. Repetition is good for us.

First, since hell will give up its dead we cannot say (and be correct) that hell is eternal. So we really need to stop saying this as a means to be clear on our terms. No matter how tormenting and dark the holding tank of hell may be, it will end, and all those in it will be brought forth the great white throne and will be judged. Second, if those who come out of hell whose names are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire created for . . . “them?” No. “Created for Satan and his angels.” The Lake of Fire was not created for Man. Got all of that? So some questions remain:

Eternity and the Lake of Fire

First, is the Lake of Fire experience for humans (who enter therein) eternal, forever, ever-lasting?

Reading the King James (and probably the NIV’s and ESV’s and most of the other non-literal translations of the Bible) we are presented with English words that tend to say in absolute terms, “Yes, Lake of Fire suffering is eternal, everlasting, endless, etc., etc. Let me offer up some examples.

In the King James (of Matthew 25:41) Jesus describes “the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever,” and Revelation 20:10 says, speaking of those who enter the Lake of Fire that “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Such passages lead us to believe that the suffering in the Lake is unending. And it is because of these verses that many Christians today make such claims. For example, in the King James of Matthew 25:41 Jesus describes “the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever,” and Revelation 20:10 says, “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Admittedly and AGAIN – such passages lead us to believe that the punishment is unending. And if the King James Translators were correct in the way they translated these passage the idea would be sound. But they weren’t. Here’s the gig. Where we have the word Eternal or everlasting in passages like this in the King James other more literal translations, like “Young’s LITERAL translation” or “Weymouths New Testament” or “Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible” or the “Concordant New Testament” we have the translations all reading things about suffering being limited to age.

For example where the King James says in Matthew 25:46 – “And these shall go away into

Understanding Aion and Aionious

Everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These other translations read: “And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'" OR "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages." “And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Why the difference?

Did I just go out and find Bible translations what would support my views? And what is the deal with this focus on “age-abiding” or “punishment of the ages” VERSES eternal punishment, like it says in the King James?

The Greek Words Aion and Aionious

It all comes down to the Greek noun “Aion” and the adjective, “Aionious.” In the King James, which takes this Greek word and translates it, “forever and ever,” other MORE literal translations of the Greek to the English would translate it, “unto the age.” What is an age? A period of time. The noun aheeohn (Aion) means age. Period. A specific period of time. It begins and it ends.

What’s really intriguing is when we get to the adjective for AHEEOHN the translators actually assign the opposite meaning to the term and instead of saying it means “a period of time,” they say it means “without end, without beginning, without beginning or ending.” So I would first and foremost suggest that this is “at best” a dubious development of the adjective from the noun. I can say this because the adjective simply does not work in many passages of the New Testament.

Translational Discrepancies

Let me put it to you another way. When we take the Greek Word “Aionon” and its adjective, we know they have a given meaning – from the root word “age or eon.” Got that? Every time the Greek terms are used they ought to translate into age related phraseology. It’s like the Greek word for tooth or teeth OD-OOSE. WHENEVER od oos is found in a manuscript it should be translated either tooth or teeth. Nothing else. Same with Aion and Aionhous – they mean age or ‘age-related.’

But in the case of Aion, instead of remaining true to the definitional root of the Greek Word (AGE), the King James translators took aionon and aionous and subjectively translated the word into various English terms depending on the context of the passage! Why would they do this? Because they were intent on maintaining doctrinal purity as they translated! In most cases this proved beneficial and congruent but in the case of eternal punishment it was a fail.

Literal vs. Doctrinal Translation

So along come these other scholars (like Rotherham and Young or Weymouth) and instead of translating Greek words into English words they think fit best, they produced LITERAL translations and EVERY TIME a GREEK word with a specific meaning showed up in the text they used the specific meaning. Therefore Rotherham and friends translations read consistently regarding the Greek. And every time we come across the Greek word Aionos or Aionious we find an age-related definition. But with the King James (and others that took up its cause to preserve doctrinal purity), we are presented with prejudicial confusion.

Why do I say this? Because the King James translators, instead of ever translating aionos and aionious in terms of the English word age (a period of time with a beginning and an end), they translate the terms 197 times using all of the following English words. For the noun Aion they used the English words Ever (72 times), World (40), NEVER (7), Evermore (2), Course (1). And for the adjective, they translated the Greek word Aionious Eternal (42), Everlasting (25), World (3), And Ever (1). Only twice out of 197 times were these specific Greek words (aion and aionous) translated in accordance with correctly defined definition of age.

I mean the exact same Greek word in one place of the King James is translated “eternal” and in another place it is translated “never,” and in another it is translated, “world.” There are forty places in the King James where the Greek Word Aion is translated world. The Greek word for world is Kosmos, not Aion. Aion means age. So by reading these literal translations, we discover that the Bible, from the Greek, literally does not teach eternality of the lake of fire but “an age abiding” lake of fire. “The smoke ascends up unto the ages of ages, not forever and ever.”

Reading the Greek properly, we would read the following passages like this: God has a “purpose of the ages” Ephesians 3:11. He is the King of the ages 1st Timothy 1:17. He prepared the ages by His word Hebrews 11:3.

Why did the King James translators use words like eternal and everlasting in their descriptions of hell instead of focusing on the definition of an age?

Examining Greek Words and Eternal Concepts

Because by the time the King James was being translated, St. Augustine's notions that people would burn forever and ever as a means to destroy the flesh were firmly established as the belief of the day, and above all things, the King James translators were told to uphold current doctrine in their translation process.

Now, stay with me. There are two very simple Greek words that would and could have cleared all of this up had they ever been used: “Aperantos” and “akatalutos.” Both of these Greek words clearly mean endless.

For example, in 1st Timothy 1:4, where Paul speaks of “endless genealogies” (aperantos) is the Greek word. And where Hebrews 7:16 speaks of the power of an “endless life,” the word is (akatalutos). ENDLESS.

The word immortal (athanatos) and immortality (aptharsia) also indicate never-endingness but . . .

Terms and Concepts Missing in Eternal Punishment

LISTEN –

NONE of these clearly defined terms, which denote eternal and endless, are EVER assigned to hell, damnation, or punishment for sin in the manuscripts. Additionally, there are two simple and prevalent adverbs in the New Testament which would have made the argument decisive regarding punishment being eternal – aei (which means “always”) and pantote (which means “evermore”) but AGAIN neither of them are ever used to describe damnation, hell, or punishment for sin.

You want something really interesting ???

The super strong phrase “to the uttermost” is used only once and does it describe hell? NO. The punishment in the lake of fire? Nope. It describes God’s ability at saving us.

Listen to the singular use of the term in Hebrews 7:25: “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

Jude 25 says “the glory of Christ shall last “to ALL the ages . . .” Had this been applied only once to punishment the argument would be over. But it’s not.

The Greek Perspective on Age and Eternity

The Greek phrase “for perpetuity” could have also been used to describe the Lake of Fire punishment – but it is only used to describe God and ultimate sanctification.

LISTEN – no Greek word that is ever truly used to describe forever, forevermore, evermore, always, endless, to the uttermost, etc. is EVER connected to punishment . . . but the terms that are related to age (to a beginning and an end) are.

Let me conclude with a statement from the book THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan). It might be helpful as it says, talking about the Greek word aionios:

“In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).

Before we open up the phone lines I want to look at scripture one more time. But this time to the Psalms.

When I read them I am able to hear the “heart of God” shining through. In light of all we have talked about over these few shows allow me to share a few with you that stick out for me. See if they strike you the same way.

Psalm 2:7-8 “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.”

Psalm 22:27-28 “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.”

Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the LORD'S, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.”

Psalm 65:2 “O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.”

The Nature of God’s Mercy

68:18 “Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.”

Psalm 89:11 “The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fullness thereof, thou hast founded them.”

Psalm 86:8-10 “Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works. All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.”

And of course, while not a Psalm, a great passage from the Old Covenant:

Isaiah 45:22-24 “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.”

God's Justice and Love

Didn’t Paul say love never fails? If God is love, can He (will He) ever fail to bring about His Good will and pleasure in spite of our failures? In spite of Satan? In spite of darkness’s drive to consume the light? Doesn’t the Word say that Death will be swallowed up in victory? Does some death escape Christ’s victory on the cross? Isn’t the second death subject to His victory too? Or just physical death? As I’ve talked on this topic over the last few years I’ve had a number of Christian people respond (in their efforts to establish eternal punishment as a fact):

“But God is just, God is just!”

I cannot help but agree. And because He is just, and because He so loved the world, He sent His Son to save it – the world – a Son who not only saved all men but a Son before whom “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.” Do you know what James, the brother of the Lord Jesus wrote about God’s mercy and His justice?

Mercy and Judgment

James 2:13 says, “Mercy triumphs over judgment.” God is certainly just, my friends, and all will reap what they sow, but “His mercy endures forever.”

We’ll stop here and finish up the whole matter next week.

SPOT
EMAILS

CALLS

From: Callum

Subject: UK Church membership decrease

Message Body:

Hello Shawn,

I thought you might find it interesting that the Mormon church membership decreased by over a thousand from 2012-2013 in the UK.

In the UK the church is forced to make its books public — View Document — Go down to page 7 to read the numbers. Not even 80,000 missionaries can keep up with the resignations lol

Keep up the good work!

Callum

From: Ben Wanamaker

Subject: Finite vs. Infinite separation from God?

Message Body:

Hey, Shawn. Hoping you and your family are well. I’ve been enjoying the recent episodes, in which you attempt to build the case that Judgment and separation from God in hell is not of infinite or eternal duration. I especially find fascinating your treatment of "first fruits" as contextually understood in ancient Jewish culture, story, verse, allegory, etc.

This subject is brushed over in almost every literary work, due to its very controversial nature. I wished to just list a few passages that might either outright contradict a temporal theory, or throws serious doubt upon it. I’m hoping you can help me out in understanding them in light of an infinite, orthodox understanding of judgment and hell. I readily realize that I’m not completely sold either way yet- I just want the truth, no matter how hard to switch previous doctrinal understandings. I’m a student of apologetics, however I’m not absolutely fixed permanently on this concept of hell.

After all, if those of us that have officially renounced Mormonism as being true can attest to, the road to truth can (and maybe should be) paved with thorns and windy roads. To err is to be human, and all we can do is compose a case upon the best reasonable inference from the table of information available, through God and man. But in the end picture, "narrow is the way" as the final destination. Thanks for your efforts, work, and ministry!

1. Matthew 10:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy.

The Concept of Destruction According to Christ

both soul and body in hell.

Question:

If it's explicitly stated by Christ that one can be destroyed through judgment, how are we to understand this? Can we with good conscience and reason infer that to be destroyed in our soul is not to be feared as enduring infinitely? Will God restore, rebuild, and reverse the destruction of that soul in hell through their eventual, sincere repentance and conversion?

Thoughts on Matthew 10:28

First, the Greek.

The word for destroy in the passage, “Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell, is apollomai and many believe it means utter destruction. It can. But does not necessarily. (remember the example from Jesus and the lost sheep). Secondly, the word for hell here is Geehena, not Tartarus nor Hades – and therefore Jesus could easily have been referring to the literal place in the Valley of Hinnom and not hell.

These are just observational that may or may not have merit.

Understanding Spiritual Loss

The second thing that I think is more important is that IF destroy means to be marred or to suffer loss instead of “utterly be destroyed,” I see continuity. When Jesus said, “What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world but loses his soul,” He may have been tapping on this same idea. And the idea is this:

Those who are not saved from hell and the Lake of Fire will suffer loss – “losing their soul, which defined by the Greek is their mind, their will, and their emotions. In other words, their individuality. Whatever in them that is dark, earthly and of the flesh will be lost. Contrary wise, whatever is covered by the blood for the redeemed will be retained. So I think the words are in harmony with the idea of loss that comes with afterlife punishment.

2. Revelation 14:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Permanent vs. Temporary: The Nature of Hell

Question:

In verse 11, if hell is not permanent, but has an end, how are we to consider "the smoke of their torment will rise FOREVER AND EVER ? Every commentary I've briefly looked at describes this as the soul being miserable forever, without end.

Watch the show tonight!

Ben W.