Eternal Punishment and the Nature of God

“the wicked will gnaw their tongues for anguish and pain; they will curse God and look upwards. There the dogs of hell – pride, malice, revenge, rage, horror, despair, continually devour them.”
John Wesley, Sermon 15

“The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings.”
Jeremy Taylor – Church of England

Annnnnnndddddd . . . run da open!

Then to Shawn

Show 47 422 Eternal Punishment II
November 25th 2014
“Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, this is HEART OF THE MATTER where . . .

Institutionalized Religion Meets Jesus Christ Face to Face

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraney

Winter Special Announcements

Got a lot to cover so let’s get right to it but first, let’s have a prayer.

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

So two weeks ago we touched on some introductory questions that we need to consider before we get into what the Bible really says about after-life punishment (for lack of a better phrase).

First, we asked, “Is God love?” And we answered from scripture, “yes, he certainly is.” And we said that His kind of love never fails . . . nor does it lose out to any other forces in the universe.

Then we asked, “Is God all knowing?” And what we meant by that is did God know all things and how they would turn out prior to creating anything? The answer again that we gave was, “Yes. God is all knowing.” And we gave the reasons why.

The third question we asked was, “Is God all powerful?” This is a very big question because it includes elements relative to free will, predestination, sovereignty of God (as we have come to call it) and a number of other factors. So in the end the question came out to be:

“Does God have the power/ability to get His way in the end?”

The fourth question we asked was a two parter and we left off with it. It was:

• “Does God desire that all people would be saved? And,
• “does God desire that any should perish?”

Interestingly enough, there are many Christian’s out there – good, well-meaning Christians – who when asked this question actually respond by saying, “No, God does NOT desire that all people would be saved,” (and to the second query they actually suggest that) “God does desire that not only some but that many will perish.” And we are left holding a very paradoxical bag of beliefs.

The Paradox of Love and Judgment

If God desires that some (even many) will perish, how could He be described as the ultimate entity of love that is patient and longsuffering and never ever fails? And if He is love, how could this same God, fully aware of the outcome before creating anything move ahead and create most of the human race that He knows will burn forever in a dismal, painful afterlife? And if He is all-powerful, why doesn’t He use His power to save all human kind from eternal punishments? I mean if He can save all of humanity from eternal punishment but doesn’t how could we view Him as being benevolent and loving and even victorious?

Let me go back a minute. The year is July of 1509 and a babe is born in France. His name is Jehan Cauvin (later to be called Jean Calvin) and he is the father of a system of Christian theology known today as Reformed theology or Calvinism. Calvin was very intelligent, trained as a lawyer and a devout Roman Catholic. In time he abandoned Catholicism for the Martin Luther’s revolution which is today known as the Protestant Reformation (people protesting against Catholicism and reforming their teachings and practices).

Armed with a steely mind and a penchant for order and austerity, Calvin decided, when he read and studied the Bible, a few general principles which were later summarized in five points by a group of people who did not agree with his opinions. The points are represented in an acronym known as T.U.L.I.P.

Let me say at the onset that there are many, many great and devout Christians who embrace all five points of modern Calvinism and live the Christian faith better than I could ever hope. This fact alone suggests to me that doctrine does not matter because

Examining Calvinism and Doctrinal Discrepancies

The same could be said for ardent Arminiasts and Catholics and even Mormons. What we can say, however, in the face of what Calvin created is that doctrine does divide, and destroy, and creates the antithesis of what the Good News once received ought to create in the hearts of those who love the Lord. Love and patience with each other.

But more on this latter. Back to Calvin’s five points. We have said, using scripture to support our claims that God is Love, that God’s love never fails, that God is all-knowing, and that God is all powerful (and Sovereign, to use a Calvin-originated term). On all of these points a five point Calvinist would agree. But when we ask the fourth question:

“Does God desire that all people would be saved?” and, “Does God desire that any should perish?” the Calvinist, in one of the most convoluted responses in the history of Christianity, says, “No, He does not.”

“Wait, wait, wait,” I find myself asking almost every time, “let me understand this clearly, You believe that God is love, right?”

“Yes.”

“And you believe that His love never fails?”

“That’s right.”

“And you believe that before creating anything He knew the outcome of all choices and events in universal history?”

“Correct,” comes the answer.

“And,” I will add, “you believe that God has the power to accomplish anything – that His will is always done?”

“Absolutely.”

“But you don’t think God wants to save all people, that He actually, before creating everything knew and desired to have the majority of the human race suffer in hell forever and ever?”

“You betcha,” they will say, to my utter astonishment.

“Why?”

“Because it’s His good pleasure,” some will say. Others say, “because in this He is glorified.” And some will even add, “because none of us deserve heaven the fact that any are saved is a tremendous picture of His love.”

Whoa. I mean, really? This is the God who we all agree is love, and He possesses not only love that never fails but knew all things from the beginning, and has the power to accomplish His will in every area, but in the end, of His own good will and pleasure created the majority of the human race not to just deconstruct and disappear but to burn in a literal lake of fire for ever and ever and ever?

Deconstructing Calvinist Beliefs

Something is seriously, egregiously wrong with what Calvin constructed out of scripture. Something that has to be deconstructed so that God starts making sense. I’m not saying we can understand everything there is to know about God – not in the least. But I am saying that what we do know and agree on about God is not coming together in any reasonable form when such ideas exist in their presence. In fact, the whole matter becomes diabolically non-sensical and creates all sorts of disruption to His otherwise beautiful and pure Good News.

Limited Atonement and Its Implications

I will respond with what the Bible says to our forth question in a minute. But sort of dovetailing into it is a fifth, which, when asked, most Christians will answer in the affirmative. The question is:

“Did Jesus suffer for the sins of the whole world? For all human-kind?”

Where most Christians, having read the Bible say, “of course He did. The whole world,” the five point Calvinist says, “no, He only suffered for the sins of whom God elected.” Now, taking the rest of their theology into account, while unbiblical, we have to admit that a limited atonement on Christ’s part is in harmony with the rest of their man made ideas.

See, to the Five Point Calvinist, since God knew all things before hand, including whom He would choose to save (in Calvinism there is no free will of Man – sovereign God makes all the decisions) it would not be fair or right for Jesus to pay for the sins of a bunch of people God knew in advance that He was not going to save. Therefore, in Five Point Calvinism, there is a limited atonement meaning Jesus only paid for the sins of those who God chose, of His own good will, to redeem. When we think about it Calvinist’s have a good point in this stance RELATIVE to THEIR DOCTRINE. I mean, if God knows all things before He ever creates them, and He is love, and all powerful, and doesn’t desire to save all men but desires that many would perish, then why would He…

Examining Calvinism and Arminianism

Have His only begotten Son suffer for the sins of those that God knew from the beginning would reject Him? That wouldn’t really be a fair or nice thing to do toward His Son, would it?

So the Calvinist says: “Jesus only paid for the sins that God chose to be saved – no others.”

Now, in opposition to Calvin and his doctrines a group of Dutch Protestants known as the Remonstrants, and under the leadership of a man named Jacobus Arminius, an alternative view of Christian theology was formed. Like the Calvinist, these “Arminianists” collectively agree that “God is love,” that “love never fails,” that “God knows all things from before creating them,” and that He is (they say) “all-powerful.”

The problem with their saying that God is all powerful is that they also suggest that a man can choose to rebel against God and GOD, who is supposed to be all powerful, can’t do ANYTHING about it. So on the one hand, Calvinists say God is all powerful and only desires to save a few. And on the other hand the Arminiasts (paradoxically agree) that God is all powerful, but conclude that men and satan can thwart His desires to redeem all men.

Critique of Established Theological Views

Why have we agreed to either one of these opinions as Christians? First of all, they don’t make sense, and second of all (and most importantly) the Bible clearly presents another view. Additionally, when speaking of the Arminianist view God, who, according to the Arminianist, knew all things before creating them, created all of us fully knowing that most (billions / trillions) would wind up burning in hell eternally because of their weaknesses. These end-results of Arminianism not only challenge the notion that God as all powerful, they challenge His love, and they challenge the fact that where scripture says love never fails, God, who is described as love, fails a trillion times over. Add in to the mix that in the Arminianist view God had His Son suffer for the sins of those He knew would never receive Him by faith, and God’s love and mercy is once again called into question (I mean, what kind of God would have His Son suffer for the sins of people who He knew would never receive His gift)? So we can see that we have as many issues with Arminianism as we have with Calvinism.

LISTEN – Mormonism fails in the very same ways and for the very same reasons. But Smith, at least, repulsed by some of the traditions of both Calvin and the Remonstrants, tried to do something about it. Unfortunately, he went to his imagination (like Swedenborg or any of the other religious visionaries before and after him) to create answers – when the Bible clearly lays them out for those willing to study and consider and to put traditions of man behind them.

God's Unique Plan for Redemption

Is it possible, just possible, that God has been approaching the redemption of humankind in an all-together different manner then how Calvin or the Remonstrants or the Mormons have suggested? That maybe there is a plan or approach that has been ignored and discounted and pushed into the corner by zealous religious men and women of tradition for centuries on end?

What way could this possibly be?

Before detailing it (and using the Bible to support it) understand that unlike Five Point Calvinism or Arminianism (or the unique doctrines found in Mormonism or Universalism) this approach fully allows:

• For God to be “love,” in the fullest sense of the word,
• For God’s love to “never, ever, ever fail,”
• For God to be absolutely “all-knowing,” and “all-powerful”
• For man to have his free will in the presence of God’s power and knowledge.
• For God to accomplish His will that none will perish
• That every bit of Jesus suffering will be appreciated and effective and will ultimately bring all “knees to bow and all tongues to confess,” that He is Lord.
• It allows for God to have the ultimate and total victory over Satan and the faulty will of individual people.
• It allows for hell and the Lake of Fire to be realities not to be trifled with, it allows
• For God to be wholly just and wholly merciful
• For the wicked and the righteous to all receive according to their works of faith and love, and it will show that in the end, God has always been in total control and will see His will accomplished in spite of us.

What is this underappreciated, unrecognized plan the Bible completely endorses?

Total Reconciliation Plan

I’m going to call it "total reconciliation" or "the God becoming the All in All" plan.

“All in all?” Let me try and explain.

In John chapter 12 (beginning at verse 32) Jesus says something remarkable. He says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (Then, in verse 33 John adds) "This he said, signifying what death he should die.” These words of the Lord’s, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me,” serve as the basis for a tremendous amount of discussion if we think about it.

We might first wonder why the Lord said what He said in the way He said it? And then we might wonder “why the Lord describes Himself being lifted up from the earth.” Then we might wonder if the Lord will “draw all men unto Him” or if this means something different than what the words suggest. And if it doesn’t mean “He will draw all men to Him” we are presented with a whole bunch of other questions, like: “Did the Lord suffer for all the sins of all the world or just those who would believe as the Calvinists maintain? If the whole world, why!? Especially since it appears that most of the world will reject His offering? And if He paid for the sins of the whole world does sin continue to exist? This pushes us further into thought about the Lord sacrifice because if He paid for all the sins of the world, and if He draws all to Him (but most refuse His offering) was His suffering in vain?

God's Desire for All

Then we have to ask if God even wants all men to be drawn to Him? If He doesn’t how come!? Isn’t that weird that He created all of us and is love but that He doesn’t desire to save us all? And if He does desire this does He get His way or does He lose out to the desires of Satan and human beings? From there we would have to wonder about the efficacy of God’s power? And this query takes us even deeper because we then have to wonder about human beings' abilities to make choices? Needless to say, verse 32 of John chapter 12 is rife with import in how we view God, His abilities, His plan of salvation, the sacrifice of His Son, notions of Man’s ability to choose, and the loving omniscience of God to kick start all this in the first place.

Now, I have views on this subject that are not unique to me (in the body of believers worldwide) but they are rarely spoken of publicly by pastors for fear of retribution from both their own congregates and other pastors at large. I will present them here as I believe I am led but you, as with ALL things, ought to challenge them, question them, reject or accept them.

Exploring Jesus’ Words in Greek

Let’s begin by breaking the words of this verse down in the Greek. Will draw all men unto me . “And I, if I be lifted from the earth” (kagô an hupsôthô ek tês gês). There are two major points in this first line where, depending on the version of the Bible you read, you may observe.

The first is we have to ask: “Why does Jesus say, “And I, IF I be lifted from the earth?” as though it may not happen? If we look to the King James (or the literal Greek translations) we will see that they are supported by the “If I” translation. But if we look to the revised editions of scripture (the NIV, etc.) you may find that it reads, “And when I.” Because I challenge the Westcott and Hort translation of scripture (which comprise the majority of the revised versions of the Bible) I am of the opinion that Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted from the earth,” and we can therefore only suggest that in His troubled mind He may have wondered if there was “any other way,” a question He would ask God when in the garden of Gethsemane prior to being taken by the temple guards.

This information (and the information that immediately follows is just for edification).

Secondly, when Jesus says: “And I, if I be lifted from the earth,” there are two ways of interpreting His meaning. Most Christians believe that He is speaking of being lifted up on the

The Lifting of Jesus

This makes sense when we consider what John says in the very next line and the Old Testament type that pictured His crucifixion – Moses and the brass serpent. It’s found in Numbers 21 beginning at verse 5. The Children of Israel, out in the wilderness, we’re getting really ungrateful. This is what we read:

5 “And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.”

Of course in the New Testament, we see in Jesus, lifted up upon the cross for all to see, and those who look upon Him also given life – both in this life more abundantly and in the next, escaping the second death – all because all they did was look upon Him, which requires an act of faith.

The Greek Interpretation

The trouble with this interpretation comes to us from the Greek. There are two main Greek words in scripture for the English word “from” as in “And I, if I be lifted from the earth” “Apo” and “Ek.” To me the differences are hard to make clear but to scholars Apo would be best used in the case of Christ being lifted up on a cross above the earth, and Ek would better describe His ascension FROM the earth entirely.

Here in John 12:32 the Greek is NOT Apo – it’s Ek, causing some Greek scholars to believe Jesus was speaking of His ascending into the heavens once He has been crucified and resurrected from the dead and NOT being lifted up on the cross. In a spirit of conjecture this definition would give us a better explanation of why the Lord speaks here “as if” He is uncertain that He would be lifted from the earth at all.

On the one hand (and literally speaking) while His being lifted up on the cross is the reason all may be drawn to Him it (in and of itself) did not draw all to Him (or any unto Him, for that matter) – His ultimate victory over the cross and death, culminating in His ascension, did.

Figurative Speech

But looking at the condition of His troubled heart, the content of Old Testament picture of Moses, and the figurative manner which Jesus (and the Jews often spoke), it is fairly certain that the Lord was referring to being lifted up on the cross. And this is what John confirms in verse thirty-three. Got all that? (Again, its provided just to enlighten).

Then we come to the second line of verse 32, where Jesus says:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In the Greek “will draw all men unto me” is (pantas helkusô pros emauton). It’s the “future active” of the Greek word, helkuô, and means to draw (and even drag). Sometimes it is used to mean attract.

“Men” is not found in most manuscripts so we are left with “I will draw all unto me.” We also note that where Jesus says (in John 6:44):

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day,” the same verb (translated “draw”) is used and can be considered drag as well.

Now there is great debate on whether Jesus means that “He will draw all to Him” (as in all people who have ever lived) or if He means “all, once He is lifted up, may then be drawn to Him” (and not just the Jews). Perhaps a review of other passages of emphatic scripture will help us decide what the Lord actually meant.

For instance Romans 5:18 says:

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness

The Question of Salvation for All

"Of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Does this passage mean all? I think so.

Hebrews 2:9 says, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” Does this mean EVERY MAN? I think so – same Greek word.

1st Timothy 2:4, speaking of God, says: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Hmmm. Does scripture mean what it says or not. Call the pastor! Call the prophet! Call the Pope! We need some clarification.

Scriptural Interpretations on Salvation

Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

And of course John 3:16-17 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world (through him) might be saved."

The world . . . or not?

And 2nd Peter 3:9 is interesting as it says: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Finally, Paul says something really interesting in 1st Timothy 4:10. He says: "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."

Of all men ESPECIALLY those who believe! What?

In the very presence of these passages (and several more) many Christians have said something in response like:

"Well certainly God wants to draw all people to Him but all would not come." (Such a response forces the hearer to question God’s sovereignty and power and leaves the power of salvation in the hands of Man or Satan – but whatever).

Then other Christians have said:

"God does not want to draw all to Him but only some," (which causes us to wonder about God being love and His reason for creating most human beings who die without Christ in the first place).

And then this has caused other Christians to wonder:

"Does His ‘drawing to all’ have anything to do with how all react?" (which causes those who say God is sovereign to wonder how our free will can trump His?)

Reflections on God's Sovereignty and Salvation

All of these questions and answers lead us to some very big questions like: “So, if God is love, and God knows everything from before He even created us, and God is truly sovereign, and God desires that all would be saved – especially those who believe, what are we to think about being Christian, about heaven, and hell, and the purpose of life, and on and on and on."

I want to understand what Jesus means here in John 12:32 when He says:

32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Such understanding has to come from the Word of God if it is going to have any lasting merit.

More next week. Phones Emails