Eternal Punishment
“There are babies a span long in hell.” -John Calvin
“Few people, if they really had the authority, would condemn anyone – anyone – even their worst enemy, to a burning, scorching, tormenting, eternal hell. Yet, they expect God to do it!” J. Preston Eby Show 45 420 Eternal Punishment – part I November 11th 2014
Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, this is HEART OF THE MATTER where . . . Institutionalized Religion Meets Jesus Christ Face to Face. And I’m your host, Shawn McCraney
Tonight we are going to embark into a new discussion – on eternal punishment. It plays a major role in how we view God, His ways, His love, and His purposes. I am going to begin with some theological and philosophical meanderings. Not too much of it will be supported by passages of scripture – at least not tonight. Instead, we are going to try and open up the conversation and thoughts surrounding it before getting into what the Bible has to say. That’s coming. One more thing: this topic, in the Mormon Christian debate is really important.
The Debate on Afterlife Views
Up to now Mormons have taken an almost universalist view of the after-life while Christians have generally taken a very hard line on the topic, saying that all people either go to heaven or hell and that is that. I am not out to make things easier for either side or to build bridges, but I do want to know what the doctrine really is (from biblical supports) and want to throw anything in the trash that is man-made (from either the Mormon OR the Christian world view). So that is what we are going to attempt to do with the topic of God’s handling those who have died without forgiveness. Whether you realize this or not such discussions will go a long way in genuine Mormon/Christian debates.
Questions on God's Nature
So I want to get right into this series by having you ask yourself a few questions. Ready? First of all, “Is God love?” Now, aside from your response or opinions on the matter I am going to use the Bible to answer this and the answer the Bible gives is, “Yes, God is love.” (1st John 4:8). We have to note that scripture doesn’t say, “God has love” or “God loves better than any other being” but John plainly states that “God IS love.” This is His essence, His person, His being. Allow yourselves to think on this for a minute when you consider His objectives, foreknowledge and views of the universe past, present and future.
How does scripture define love or, the kind of love that God is? The apostle Paul tries to define the love that God is for us, and he says, among many other things, that the kind of love that God is “never fails.” In the Greek (the language in which this passage was written) the word for never is oudepote (oo-dep'-ot-eh) which is best defined as “Not even at any time (i.e. never at all) neither at any time, never, nothing at any time . . . ever fails.” He expects our love to never fail I think we can safely assume His love never fails, right?
So right off the bat I think we can say we know from scripture that God IS love and that the love that “God Is” never, ever, “at any time” fails. Automatically, and in light of these two simple facts we have to allow many of the things that have been taught and said about God to simply evaporate. I will let you decide for yourself what you think those things should be. These two notions are quite comforting, aren’t they – “that God is love and His love never, ever fails.” Do they cause you to possibly view Him and all you have heard about Him in a different way? So let’s agree that “God IS love” and that the love (that God is) will never ever fail. So far so good?
God's Omniscience
The next question we need to ask ourselves is: “Is God all-knowing?” What I mean by “all-knowing” is does (and has) God known everything (that He cares to know about) from before the creation of all material and immaterial things? In other words, before creating any living thing was He aware of how they would be, what they would do, the choices they would make, and the path they would trod? Bible scholars and apologists have created a word to describe this all-knowingness.
Understanding God's Omniscience
They’ve called it omniscience. It’s not a word that is in the Bible so I don’t really like to use it. I prefer to just plainly wonder if God knows everything or not? Now there’s a group of Christian people who suggest that God does not know everything. They embrace a teaching called Open Theism which portends to the idea that God is not all-knowing but is prepared to respond to all possible situations as they arise around Him (or His consciousness).
I personally reject Open Theism as viable for a couple basic reasons. First, the teaching counters the biblical descriptions of God, and second, in my opinion, if God did not know all things from the beginning to the end He could be surprised. And you know as well as me that if God can be surprised, well, I think that would make Him incapable of exercising reliable governance over the universe, don’t you?
Admittedly, I could be wrong on this last part – men far more intelligent than me lean toward Open Theism so maybe I’m missing something that they see. But the Bible plainly teaches that God knows (sees) all things from the beginning to the end, and Jesus did say that He was aware of “the number of hairs on our head” and “every time a sparrow falls from the sky.” So I would suggest that God is not only Love that never fails, but we can add to our descriptions of Him “that He knows all things.” I think most Christians would agree to this. You with me so far?
God's Power and Governance
At this point a question often naturally pops up which asks, “Well does this all-knowing, loving God cause all things to happen?” We’re going to get to this question in a minute but now let’s ask our third question: “Is God all-powerful?” Again, human-beings (scholars) have created other words to describe an all-powerful God – “omnipotent” is one of them. Again, a word that is not in the Bible.
God's Ultimate Will
I would strongly suggest that God is, in fact, all-powerful and what I mean by this is in the end of all things God will have His way. The question of God’s power is truly complex and I have neither the ability nor the inclination to try and exhaustively address it. So let me summarize the point by saying I believe that God does have the power to get His desired results in the end. He doesn’t force and He appears to work in and through issues to achieve His ultimate will but He will achieve it – and nothing in heaven or on earth can stop this.
At this point in this conversation the question is almost always asked – “Well, if God is all-powerful and He allows certain things to occur and disallows others so His will is ultimately done, couldn’t we say that God is responsible for everything that occurs?” Some would say this. I don’t, because I think that when it comes to placing blame or responsibility there is a difference between those who take action and those who allow action to be taken. You may disagree, but that’s how I see it.
Then the question always seems to pop up that asks “whether God causes everything to happen that happens” – which we will cover in a minute. But suffice it to say, the Bible is clear that God’s will is done – and that He has the power to accomplish His desired will in spite of our interference or the interferences of darkness. To suggest that God is not all-powerful ultimately removes His ability to accomplish His will and to govern the universe and suggests that circumstance, Satan, or human will can trump Him). In my opinion this scenario could not be so. So as far as I’m concerned, God is truly all-powerful. His will is always done.
This leads to the conversation that asks, by what means does God operate and accomplish His will? Some suggest He rides roughshod right over everything and does what He wants, that He controls everything, there is no such thing as freedom of choice or freewill and He despotically makes everything happen that happens – from birds singing to bees buzzing to humans being saved – He does it. Period. I would suggest that since He is love, how His will and ways.
Understanding God's Sovereignty
I think that God gets His way by and through perfect foreknowledge of human beings and that He works in and around His foreknown choices of others to bring about an expected end – an end He demands, and gets, no matter what the choices are of human beings. In other words, hand in hand with the knowledge that God is love is His love of freedom which He grants to all, leaving all people the right to comply or rebel, but with Him having the ultimate control on how everything turns out.
The Concept of Sovereignty
Tied very closely to the notion that God is all-powerful is another very popular word that is not found in the Bible. The term is sovereign. The sovereignty of God might be reworded to a rhetorical question where we ask, “Is God’s will always accomplished?” and so it relates very closely to the topic of Him having the power to accomplish anything He desires. While the word is not found anywhere in the King James Version of the Bible, it is found over 300 times in later translations (like the NIV) where the actual word GOD has even been replaced by it. For example, where original manuscripts read, “Lord God,” the NIV has put, “sovereign Lord,” in its place. How? Why?
Apparently, the word “sovereign” was introduced into the English language by the French-speaking “sovereigns” that oversaw England in the 12th century. Originally, sovereign was a French word that was used almost exclusively to describe men of power and not the non-human God of the universe. Generally speaking, sovereign was (and still is) used to describe a person of the utmost power over political scenes or governments, and it was none other than Jean Calvin, father of modern-day Calvinism, who introduced the term into theological circles as he was a Frenchman who, in my opinion, had a penchant for concepts revolving around the idea of utter controlling power. Calvin was both extremely political, highly authoritarian in nature, and a lawyer (once trained for the priesthood) who denied in his explanation of Christian theology the notion that human beings were free to make choices but instead said God was “sovereign” and therefore in total utter control of everything in the realm of the human experience.
God's Power and Human Choice
Biblically speaking, we can see that the use of the term “sovereign” is not necessarily off the mark. But the implications that men like Calvin (and those who follow His teachings) choose to assign to the term are, in my opinion, off. What I mean by this is that while God certainly has all-power, can we also conclude, as the Calvinist does, that humankind has then no ability to make any choices of their own? Calvinists would say so. I would suggest that a preponderance of scripture suggests otherwise. So how do we balance the idea of an all-powerful (“sovereign”) God with the notion that within His reign He allows humans to freely choose but within this He is also able to have His will done without fail?
Let’s obtain our reasonable answer to this situation by trying to understand what it means and doesn’t mean when we say God is sovereign or all-powerful. Many Christians suggest that in the scope of all power God can in fact do anything He wants or wishes. Because we have borrowed a term from the human realm (sovereign) and assigned it to God, we now find ourselves seeing Him as we might see any human sovereign human despot or political maniac like Pol Pot, Idi Amin, or the Ayatollah who truly have done whatever they pleased. This is not so with God. In other words, a sovereign egotistical landlord living in 17th Century France had more ability to do what he wished than God.
What the HECK are you talking about, McCraney! Titus 1:2 says plainly that “God cannot lie.” Can a sovereign despot lie? Of course. But listen – does the fact that the despot can lie (and that God can’t) make the despot more powerful than God? Of course not! The fact is because God cannot do things like lie (which are counter to His nature) He is actually superior and far more powerful than all earthly sovereigns who, in many cases, are unlimited in the range of their ability to do whatever evil they desire. This is really
God's Sovereignty
A difficult perspective for some people to understand – especially the dogmatically zealous. Additionally (toward this point) James 1:13 tells us that “God cannot be tempted with evil neither does He tempt any man.” Again, do such apparent restrictions limit God’s paradoxical “sovereignty” or do they enhance it? I would say enhance. These observations might help us see that while God does, in fact, always get His way, there are limitations (that’s right, I said it) there are limitations to the things He can or will do to accomplish them. By admitting this we are able to clear away some of the horrible things that have been laid at His proverbial feet over the centuries under the auspices of, “Well, God willed it.”
Really? God is love, He is not despotic and while all powerful, it is my opinion that far too many ugly, evil events have been put to His account that had nothing to do with Him or His desires. So when some disturbed individual walks into a pre-school and shoots it up I am personally reticent to respond by saying, “Oh well, God is sovereign. He (either willed this or allowed it to happen) and we have to trust it.” Instead, I would rather choose to say: “This is an utter tragic event – ugly and heinous – but I know that our all-powerful God is here to help us get through it – if we let Him.” This is where He operates – in the clean-up and reparations, not in causation.
God’s Limitations and Promises
Of course someone could say, “Well why didn’t our all-powerful God prevent the shooting in the first place?” To which I would add, “because He’s not a despot, that’s why! He allows men to choose to do good or evil. But in and through His foreknowledge of all things He is here to help us through it all AND He can and will use it to bring about His good will . . . in the end.” You with me? In addition to God not being able to lie or to be tempted (nor to tempt) we also know from Numbers (23:19) that God promises (or limits Himself) according to the things He has said. Did you know this? The reference in Numbers 23 and says: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” In other words, if God has said it, He will make good on it. Some think that, because He is sovereign He is not limited by His words. No so.
The Concept of Sovereignty
The idea runs along the lines of God lying but it’s not exactly the same thing. What it says is if He has spoken it He will make it happen. In a sense, this limits Him to the words He speaks. So while sovereignty is a biblical concept it can be overused and applied in ways that are not only at odds with scripture but are highly unreasonable (especially when we consider other factors that play into the make-up and character of God, including His love, justice, truth, grace, holiness, and the like. When we allow ourselves to pass man-made terms around and apply them to His person we often end up with some very unreasonable religious tenets, which typically do far more damage to the faith than the good or comfort they are intended to produce. God is certainly not making everything that happens happen. Rather He is using what happens (good and evil by the hands of good and evil people) to ultimately bring about His good will and pleasure.
How does He accomplish this? We’ll get there before the end of this series. So setting the word “sovereign” aside the question remains – “Does God have the power to accomplish his will?” Now, the responses we get to this query are a little bit dicey because some will ardently claim that God does get exactly His desires in the end (which is the biblical view) while others suggest that He does not – that external forces and other factors have the ability to thwart His desires. If this is the case God could certainly not be considered sovereign but merely a wishful and hopeful creator who’s will is subject to subordinate forces which paradoxically have an ability to trump Him?
The Nature of God's Power and Love
God does not always accomplish His desires, then He is not all powerful . . . and if He is not all powerful then He is certainly not in control . . . and if He’s not in control then His knowing of everything amounts to little more than empty impotent knowledge. And if He cannot do anything about knowing everything going on around Him then the Love that He is could be considered ineffective and one that ultimately fails. And if God is love and His love fails, then love is a waste of time for every human and we might as well be godless and live by might, lust and self-indulgence. Are you sensing the slippery slope we step upon the moment we say God does not accomplish His desires?!
I would suggest that we see God as scripture describes Him. That He is . . . Love. That love never fails. That He is all-knowing. That He is all-powerful. And that His will and desires are always accomplished in the end by and through His foreknowledge.
Questions About God's Desires
This brings us to a fourth question (which is really composed of two different but related questions): “Does God desire that all people would be saved? And, “does God desire that any should perish?” Interestingly enough, there are many Christians out there – good, well-meaning Christians – who when asked this question actually respond by saying, “No, God does NOT desire that all people would be saved,” (and to the second query they actually suggest that) “God certainly desires that not just some but that many will perish.” Holy incomprehensibility, batman! Who is this God so described? This thinking leaves us holding a very paradoxical bag of beliefs.
If God desires that some/many will perish, how could He be described as the ultimate entity of love? Some believers respond by saying, “We’ll we just don’t understand God’s love!” Huh? What? We don’t understand GOD’s love? How about we fail to understand love period? Paul describes agape love in 1st Corinthians 15 and I think however man is able to tap into such love God embodies it a trillion times more. If He then is love, how could this same God, fully aware of the outcome before creating any of it, move ahead and create most of the human race knowing that most of them will burn forever in a dismal, painful afterlife?
And if He is all-powerful, why doesn’t He use His power to save all human kind from such eternal punishments? Oh, because He can’t? So then He does NOT get His way? And Satan or Man is more powerful than He is? Oh, because He chooses NOT to save all? So how do we refer to Him as love? Oh, because we don’t understand His “kind” of love?
The Teachings of Jesus and Historical Context
So them what did Jesus mean when He said: Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Go back with me a minute. To a place where Christianity got side-tracked into a horrible state of mind and has never really recovered. The year is July of 1509 and a babe is born in France. His name is Jehan Cauvin (later to be called Jean Calvin) and he is the father of a system of Christian theology known today as Reformed theology or Calvinism. Calvin was very intelligent, trained as a lawyer and a devout Roman Catholic but in time abandoned Catholicism for the Christian revolution ignited by Martin Luther and which today is known as the Protestant Reformation (people protesting against Catholicism and reforming their teachings and practices in the face of it). Armed with a steely mind and a penchant for order and austerity, Calvin decided, when he read and studied the Bible, a few general principles which were later summarized in five points by a group of people who did not agree with his opinions. The points are represented in an acronym known as T.U.L.I.P.
Calvinism and Doctrine
Let me say at the onset that there are many, many great and devout Christians who embrace all five points of modern Calvinism and live the Christian faith better than I could ever hope. Interestingly enough, we find just as many devout and loving Christians who reject Calvinism and yet live their faith in the King with integrity and honor as well. To me all this suggests is doctrine doesn’t matter. In fact, doctrine divides, and destroys, and creates the antithesis of what the Good News once received ought to create in the hearts of those who love the Lord.
Calvin’s Five Points
Back to Calvin’s five points. We have said, using scripture to support our claims that God is Love, that God’s love never fails, that God is all-knowing, and that God is all powerful (and Sovereign, to use a Calvin-originated term). On all of these points a five-point Calvinist would agree. But when we ask the fourth question: “Does God desire that all people would be saved? and, “Does God desire that any should perish?” the Calvinist, in one of the most convoluted responses in the history of Christianity, says, “No, He does not want all to be saved.” “Does God desire that any should perish?” we then ask. The answer: “Yes. God desires that most would perish.”
“Wait, wait, wait,” I find myself asking almost every time, “let me understand this clearly: “You believe that God is love, right?” “Yes.” “And you believe that His love never fails?” “That’s right.” “And you believe that before creating anything He knew the outcome of all choices and events in universal history?” “Correct,” comes the answer. “And,” I will add, “you believe that God has the power to accomplish anything – that His will is always done?” “Absolutely, He is Sovereign,” they insist on adding. “But you don’t think God wants to save all people, that He actually, before creating anything, knew and desired to have the majority of the human race suffer in hell forever and ever AND THIS IS WHAT HE CREATED THEM FOR?” “That’s right,” they will say, to my utter astonishment.
“Why?” “It’s His good pleasure,” some will say. Others say, “because in this He is glorified.” And some will add, “because none of us deserve heaven so the fact that any are saved is a tremendous picture of His actual love.” I’m not freaking kidding. They teach and believe this. Does this sound like the God who we all agree is love, who not only possesses love that never fails but knew all things from the beginning, and has the power to accomplish His will in every area, but in the end, of His own good will and pleasure, created the majority of the human race not to just deconstruct and disappear but to burn in a literal lake of fire for ever and ever and ever?
Jesus and the Sins of the World
Something is seriously, egregiously wrong with what Calvin constructed out of scripture. Something that has to be deconstructed so that God and His Word can start making sense. Our fifth question, which most Christians will answer in the affirmative is: “Did Jesus suffer for the sins of the whole world? For all human-kind?” Where most Christians, having read the Bible say, “of course He did . . . da whoooooollleeee world,” the five-point Calvinist says, “no, He didn’t.” If he did, that opens us up to a whole bunch of questions. If He didn’t that opens us up to a whole bunch more.
And we will pick up our presentation here next week. Let's open up the phone lines: (801) 590-8413
