Discussion with Matt Slick

Heart of the Matter: Exploring Biblical Interpretations

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the Matter where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraney, your host. We’re excited to have a guest tonight on the show – a returning guest – brother Matt Slick, founder of CARM and host of his own radio television program that plays around the intermountain west. Matt and I – while we tend to disagree on a number of things relative to the faith – have remained friends in spite of our differences and like I said when we had Adam’s Road on a few weeks ago, he has my deepest respect as a Christian man for still being willing to associate with me and be on the show. And it has not gone unnoticed (by me at least) that even on his call-in radio show when people have called in and maligned my Christianity he has refused to jump on the bandwagon and publicly attack me. So thank you, Matt.

Beliefs and Differences

Tonight we are going to attempt something new – or I should say we are going to approach our time together in a novel way – at least for us. If possible, I would like for Matt and I to dialogue under the auspices of Matt being who he is – an educated, well-versed believer skilled in providing Christian answers based on his understanding of the Bible. Matt attended a reformed college in Escondido, Ca so his being a five point Calvinist is no surprise, eschatologically he’s a partial preterist, a Trinitarian through and through, and a believer that hell is eternal for all who do not receive Jesus in this life by faith. He speaks strongly against both homosexuality and homosexuals, and against Islam, Catholicism, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism. Anyone who knows anything about Matt is that his apologetic is based on his interpretation and understanding of the Bible – interpretations which he shares with millions of Christians today through his website, public debates and weekday radio program. Matt stridently maintains that many things are answerable from scripture and typically is not shy to say that he has the answers.

At the other end of the spectrum – which I maintain is a spectrum that viably thrives within the faith – you have the likes of . . . me. Where I believe (Matt may not) but where I believe Matt and I share an ardent love for the same Jesus and the same God. I believe that we both – both – have a deep love for the Word of God. But unlike Matt I do not have any accredited religious education behind me, am not a promoter of the Trinity, do not believe in afterlife punishment in the fashion of Augustine, I ardently relentlessly reject most of the five points Matt accepts, open my arms to all people of all faiths and lifestyles all the time, and believe God will reconcile all things to Himself, not losing to Satan or the will of Man when it comes to faith in His Son as all will someday know and receive Him as Lord and Savior. Additionally, and more to our discussion tonight, I am a full preterist, I believe that everything is done and complete when it comes to the Bible, that it is a history of them in that day, and that it is more of a map for each individual to consider than a manual that gives brick and mortar religious leaders authority over others.

The Bible's Interpretation

In an age where many Christians seem to worship the Bible I appreciate the CS Lewis quote that says: So that is what we are going to talk about – the Bible (again, a book we both love, know and teach). But specifically I hope Matt and I can explore a few main points about the Bible: First, “What proofs and evidences are there that support the present day notion that the Bible was written for people today to be a Manual of Orders and Rules Christians must obey and implement materially?” Every word of that question is important so let me repeat it: “What proofs and evidences are there that support the present-day notion that the Bible was written for people today to be a Manual of Orders and Rules Christians must obey and implement materially?” We’ll spend the first half hour or so talking about this.

The second point I want to talk with Matt about is “what justification does a person (or a people) have – we’ll use Matt or a Calvinist as an example.

Exploring the Bible with Matt Slick

So, there it is – the general topic is the Bible and our guest – Brother Matt Slick, welcome. So . . . to our first general topic: “What proofs and evidences are there that support the present-day notion that the Bible was written for people today to be a Manual of Orders and Rules Christians must obey and implement materially?” (I have nine questions and/or points to make) that revolve around this first question.

History and Compilation of the Bible

• History of the Bible

• How much time since the death of Christ passed before believers could have the whole word of God?

• The apostles went out and shared the Good News what kept the people in the vine once they left?

• Once Jerusalem was destroyed, John the last apostle dies, what did we /they have?

• Copiest issues

• Distance issues (Rome to Jerusalem)

• Plagiarisms

• Content debates

• True compilation

• Replication?

• Literacy?

• Luther and his antelegomenea

• Erasmus?

• Internal Evidences?

• Context tells us that most of the NT was written to the people in specific areas dealing with specific issues not really pertinent to us today?

• How many passages are there that actually say that this is for the whole world to always follow?

Variations and Interpretations of the Bible

• Then WHAT OR WHICH BIBLE?
• If it was so vitally important to the very salvation of individuals why has God allowed SO MANY DARNED VARIATIONS? Or did Satan do this? Or did God let Satan do this?
• Authorized?
• Westcott and Hort
• Give you just one an example of the problems between the two version bodies: Revelation 1:6

KING JAMES New King James The Modern King James and Young’s Literal Translation all say: Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

But the versions from the Westcott and Hort or the Revised Mss evidence says Revelation 1:6 (MNT) and has made us to be a kingdom of priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever, Amen.

We teach the Bible verse by verse. This is one of hundreds of difficulties between the texts.

And then what about TRANSLATIONAL ISSUES THEMSELVES WITHIN WHATEVER VERSION HAS BEEN CHOSEN? Anytime someone takes an original language mss and translates it into another language the Word of God is NO LONGER taken literally. You, brother slick, do NOT take the word literally. It’s impossible. These are just some of the reasons why your use of the book, while it works for people who have been deluded to think that it is the manual they must adhere to materially, is full of holes.

• What about literal application?
• Paul and the sorcerer in Acts 13. He reads his heart, calls him all sorts of names, pronounces judgment and executes the punishment immediately on the spot – blindness for a season. What about today? Now?
• Divorce?
• Hair management of Women
• How to treat widows
• Women in church
• Giving slaves back to owners
• Miracles
• Mass conversions
• Eating meats sacrificed to idols

The New Law and Its Implications

• Why would we use words in ink as the new Law? Isn’t love the new law? His laws are written on our heart and mind and not with ink?

• NT is a new law. Not supposed to be.

• “By the Law is a knowledge of sin.”

• What has the use of the scripture done to the Body since the reformers uttered sola scriptura?

• Division

• Hostility

• Death

• The exact opposite of what Christ came to do – bring peace, unity and love.

This now brings us to part II of our show, which we will get to right after this spot!

Okay, welcome back. The content Matt and I are discussing can be found in our latest book, “Knife to a Gunfight” available at www.hotm.tv It’s there in hardcopy, audio (for free) ebook form, and even smoke signal.

Our second question to discuss tonight is, who’s view is right when it comes to biblical interpretation? Typically at this point Matt would say something like, “Mine” and we would all laugh. But though this may really truly be believed it’s not funny. Making the Bible a mandated manual has caused us to break up over issues that only God can judge.

What is it that qualifies one person (or several people) as the authority on biblical interpretation? Is it history? Is it tradition? Is it the creeds? Is it education? Is it popular vote? Is it minority vote? Here

Intellectual Interpretations of the Bible

Refer to him twice as a genius. Are geniuses the ones who get to tell us what the Bible means? If so, what makes Matt's interpretations right over someone like Greg Boyd out in Minnesota who promotes open Theism? NT Wright who rejects five-point Calvinism? Leo Tolstoy who rejected the authority of the Brick and Mortar, Paul Tillich? John Robinson? And those are just some towering intellectuals. What makes Matt's views of the Bible more valid than me, or you, or the rabble who love the Lord and read His Word? I mean doesn’t the word say that God uses the weak things and beggarly things of the world and the despised things over the strong? Isn’t it antithetical to the central gospel message to think that scholars' views are more vital than the view of the rabble of believers?

The Role of the Bible in Governance

Why in the faith are not the poor itinerant believers taken more seriously than the lettered and literate? See, when churches/people use the NT as a manual to govern, problems arise because people actually mandate that their views must be embraced. We have obvious differences (which lead to divisions). The New Law (is a knowledge of sin). A physical manual is impossible because we all have very smart people who love the Lord and love His Word who DIFFER! Sabbath Day, Musical Instruments not in the NT, Baptism, Governance, Authority, Discipline, Spirit of a matter is lost, Flood, Creative Periods, Age of the earth, Picking up serpents?

Personal Beliefs on the Word of God

I love the word of God. I read and teach it because I believe that hearing and reading it is a benefit to knowing God and His Son Jesus Christ whom He has sent. I believe the Word to be a map for each individual to consider by the Spirit. I believe the written word is a wonderful gift from God to all who believe and that it is to all who believe because it must be spiritually discerned. I content that its contents reflect material advice to Jesus Church in the settings and confines of that day. I believe that there are great spiritual lessons any believer can gain by considering its contents. But I also believe that a) the book itself does not commend its material directives to a people of the future – with the future being defined as any follower of Christ post 70 AD. I maintain that all views – all reasonable views of its contents – ought to not only be tolerated but allowed and encouraged by every believer today. I believe that the Law killeth, that words written with ink do more to divide but that words written on the heart and mind unite. I believe it is time in Christian history for us to die to dogmatism, to die to divisions, and to die to using the Bible as a written manual on how to play church. The church was taken by Jesus and saved from destruction in 70 AD. His body now continues to thrive and live on earth and it will continue to.

Moving Beyond Dogmatism

If we expect this beautiful faith of regeneration, salvation, forgiveness, and human empowerment to overcome this world is to survive we must put an end to the in-fighting – no matter what the topic. All believers are free and at liberty to not only retain opinions, and to share them, but to be loved and accepted in the body in spite of them. It is time. Now. To be lovers, not lawyers. To share the light and stop cursing the dark, to point fingers at our own lives and hearts before ever pointing fingers at others. I am not saying my way and views need to be embraced – biological, linguistic, eschatological, soteriological, epistemological, intellectual, emotional, environmental, sociological, whatever – so long as we hold to the Good News. We are all individually responsible before God so let’s remember this . . . and love as He commanded.

Other points: 'Do you believe in the Bible?' I replied, 'No, I believe in God.' You see, the Bible is not God. The Bible is words about God. The Bible does not save you. God saves you. Atheists gleefully point this out in numerous articles, including: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html, http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm, http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions, http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf. John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, made it very clear in his writings that Christians generally base their understanding of God on four things. Known as the “The Wesley Quadrilateral,” they are 1.) scripture, 2). tradition, 3).

The Impact of Translation and the Printing Press on the Bible

When a text in one language is translated into another language, it is no longer literal. In order to have done the translating, persons (usually a group of scholars) had to sit down with the original text and make choices as to which words to use in the translation and even how to construct the sentences and paragraphs. Very often, the decision wasn’t simply one of linguistics, but a theological decision, as well. Prepositions, nouns, and verb tenses in Greek and Hebrew (as is true in most languages) don’t always translate directly into another language.

Before the printing press, the bible was not one book. Rather, it was a collection of scrolls, or smaller books – a library. In fact, today, Christian Bibles range from the sixty-six books of the Protestant canon to the eighty-one books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church canon. The invention of the printing press allowed for all of the books of the bible to more easily fit between two covers. Before the printing press, each of the pages of the bible were hand written copies, each of them taking months to create. Those who did the scribing were highly trained bible scholars who were well versed not only in the art of writing, but well acquainted with the commentaries that had been written by leaders of the early church to help people understand the scriptures. The scribes worked together in fairly large church-run publishing houses. The books they scribed not only included the bible, but the works of various scholars and theologians of the Christian faith. The publishing houses they worked for were very powerful and wielded a lot of influence in the church, in the centers of learning, as well as in politics.

The Rise of the Printing Press

So, one can imagine what the effect of the printing press had when it was invented in 1440. Very quickly, the scribes who had been working in the publishing houses either had to learn how to set up and operate a printer or move on to another profession. Because a printer could turn out volumes of books within a pretty short period of time, many of the scribes suddenly found themselves unemployed. The economics of the publishing business changed things almost overnight. Within just a few years of the invention of the printing press, millions of bibles had been printed in the Vulgate Latin. The church-run publishing houses that printed this version of the bible continued to have a powerful influence on churches, universities, and politics. It was the bible of the Roman Catholic Church. Any other versions of the Bible being published, especially in the languages of the people, were seen by the Church as an attack on their lucrative monopoly. In England John Wycliffe in 1384 as a consequence of translating the Latin Bible into Middle English.

Translations and Their Impact

Martin Luther sensed the importance of the power of the publishing houses. When Martin Luther translated the bible into German and had it published (O.T. in 1516 and N.T. 1522) it was popularly received in Germany and became the basis for the rise of the Lutheran Church and the beginning of the Reformation. Publication of William Tyndale’s English translation took place beginning in 1525 (which led to Tyndale's execution). Other translations into French, Spanish and Italian soon followed. Each of these publications faced serious opposition from the publishing houses of the Roman Catholic Church, who, for seventy-five years had been making fortunes from printing the Vulgate Latin version of the Bible. Since it was a lucrative business requiring much financial investment, each publishing house made claims for their own version of the bible. Of course, the greatest claim any of them would have made was, “This is the word of God.” Before publishing houses were competing with each other, this claim was rarely made about the bible. But, in the mid 1500's, when millions of persons were looking for a bible they could own, calling their book “the word of God” became a popular selling point and even a synonym for the word “bible.”

English translations of the bible followed one upon another. Unlike earlier English translations from the Vulgate Latin, Tyndale’s printed version of the bible was a translation of the Greek and Hebrew texts, and therefore more accurate. Based on Tyndale’s work, King Henry VIII authorized the Great Bible. The Geneva Bible soon followed in 1560, the first bible to be divided into chapters and verses. In 1568 Queen Elizabeth made an attempt to authorize the Bishop’s Bible. Then the Douay-Rheims Bible was published by the Catholic

The Evolution of English Bible Translations

Church, beginning with the NT in 1582 and the OT 1610. The King James Version was published in 1611 and authorized for use in the Church of England. Since then many other English versions of the bible have been published. Many of them, such as the Revised Standard Version were translated by groups of scholars who would work together to get the best translation they could, using the oldest and most trusted Greek and Hebrew texts available. Since the early 1900's great advances have been made in biblical translation because older and older texts, including The Dead Sea Scrolls, have been discovered in various parts of the world. The fact is that the older a biblical manuscript is, the more likely it is to be more faithful to the original writing. In fact, bible scholars categorize Greek and Hebrew manuscripts (otherwise known as “codices”) into family groups, based on their inherited idiosyncrasies.

The King James Version of the Bible, while having used existing Greek and Hebrew versions of the bible in its translation, also depended heavily on the Vulgate Latin Bible. Over the centuries, the translation became outdated, especially with the discovery of older codices. Thus, a few years ago, the New King James Version was published so that it might include information from the older codices while keeping a sense of the rhythm and style of the older version. For more details about different versions of the English Bible go to http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/versions.htm on the Internet.

Challenges of Literal Interpretation

How can anyone take the bible literally? The fact remains that no original manuscript of the bible exists to this day. The earliest texts in existence are handwritten copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies. And even those copies have discrepancies with each other. So, once a copy was made of the original text, the result was that at least one or two steps were taken away from having the original text. The fact also remains that most biblical literalists read translations of those early manuscripts. But, when a translation takes place, the literalness of the resulting text takes at least one more step away from the original text. Then, as versions of the English translations come about, even more steps are taken away from the original text, especially as we notice differences between the versions.

Of course, literalists may argue that God makes sure that when we read the bible we are getting the true sense of what the original author intended by the power of the Holy Spirit, even though the subsequent manuscripts and translations might have wandered a bit. We can try to believe that in all of the copying and translating and discussions between biblical scholars, God was somehow able to make the bible mean what it is supposed to mean. Such an argument does not, however, explain the vast differences between the beliefs of persons who claim to take the bible literally. If it was true that God makes us believe what the bible is supposed to mean, or that the various versions of the bible accurately convey what God intends, then all the literalists would agree with each other. But they don’t. What so called “literalists” really do is read the bible while being influenced by teachers, preachers, popular television and radio religion and talk show hosts. Their “literal” interpretation is colored completely by others, by their own version of tradition, experience, and reason. But, sometimes it is questionable whether persons who claim to take the bible literally have really seriously and critically studied the bible, at all.

Faith Beyond Literalism

So how can you be a Christian if you don’t accept the bible literally? The problem with many atheists and literalists is they believe that if some of the bible is not literally (historically and scientifically) true, then none of it can be true, at all. It's either all or nothing. Someone, either a literalist or an atheist, will point out that if the universe really is 13.7 billion years old then the biblical account of creation in Genesis 1-2 must be totally wrong. Therefore the whole bible has to be incorrect. They'll say, “You can’t pick and choose! Either it is all correct or it is all wrong!” Using this argument, either atheists refuse to become Christians, OR literalist Christians simply stay at the literal stage of spiritual growth, afraid to consider other alternatives, OR, tragically, Christians have left the faith in droves, OR Christians have moved on in their faith to believing that the bible is an

Understanding the Bible's Message

Ongoing accumulated sacred account, written by God’s people, of that holy struggle to know more about God. As I grew up in the United Methodist Church I attended Sunday school and worship services with my family every Sunday. I also studied the bible and read it through from cover to cover, many times. I knew the stories. I knew the commandments. I also noticed there were several different versions within the bible of the same stories. Sometimes I wondered why. For instance, I noticed that there were at least two separate stories of the creation in Genesis, and that other accounts of the creation were in the bible, as well (see http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-major-biblical-creation-texts-creation-accounts).

In spite of that, my love for Jesus and respect for and belief in the bible never wavered. In spite of the problems in the bible that were pointed out to me by Christians and non-Christians, alike, I decided to believe it, anyway. I had faith that rather than focusing on where any particular chapter and verse was true or false, it was much more important to focus on the overall story laid out by the whole bible, realizing that the bible is the ongoing accumulated sacred account of God’s people for the past 3,000 years. So, what does the bible tell us?

Key Teachings of the Bible

If one reads the bible, encountering it as a whole, rather than in little tiny pieces, studying it in the light of tradition, experience, and reason, this is the what the bible says:

• God created the universe and continues to be part of the creative process. So, do we believe in the Genesis accounts of creation? Yes!
• Human beings were created good, like everything else, but nobody is perfect. Even the best of us make mistakes, sometimes on purpose, because we’re self-centered. So, do we believe in the Fall of humanity? Yes!
• The universe, including us, tends to fall apart, but, God endeavors to continue to recreate it and invites us to participate in the process. Just as humans were put into a garden to tend it, humans are to take care of the garden, today. So, do we believe in the biblical stories of how God brought up a whole people to be the light unto the nations? Yes!
• Even though humans make mistakes and mess things up, God still loves us and continually tries to redeem us, along with the messes we make. Even the best of us is screwed up, but God loves us, anyway! We had a hard time buying into that even when Jesus lived here. So, do we believe in bible stories where persons sinned, but were redeemed by God’s faithfulness? Yes!
• Human beings have a tendency to believe that God is perfect and that God will not tolerate imperfection. God has shown us in the bible that this is not true; that it is bad thinking on our part; that God did God’s best to prove it with Jesus. So, do we believe in the many bible stories where God actually blessed scoundrels? Yes!

God's Love and Human Understanding

God loved the world so much that God came up with a way to vividly enter into our lives as a human being – Jesus Christ. Anything written in the bible about how this event literally took place (like the virgin birth) is a human attempt to explain a mystery that is simply beyond our human understanding. Matthew and Luke gave it a try. John and Mark decided not to even go there. Nevertheless, some people really do need literal explanations, even when those explanations aren’t always consistent. So, do we believe in the virgin birth? Yes! But we probably won't be able to explain it much better than Matthew or Luke did!

In the struggle for the knowledge of God, humans learned that it is important for them to live in a loving community with one another. In order to do this, laws and commandments were written and followed. There are 613 of them in the Old Testament, alone. However, with time, these laws became a burden and even became excuses for persons not to love one another and to separate themselves from others. So, do we believe in Jesus’ great commandment that summed up all the laws? Yes!

Also, in the beginning of our struggle for the knowledge of God, humans believed they needed to make sacrifices, even human sacrifices, to appease God. Over time, God was able to convince humans that human sacrifices aren’t necessary. Over even more time, God was able to convince humans that animal and grain sacrifices aren’t.

Faith and Belief in Christian Teachings

Necessary; that, instead, what God wants from humans is faithful and righteous living based on faith and love. So, do we believe in the biblical stories of God’s love for us and readiness to forgive? Yes! The Christ event, wherein God entered into our lives as a human, brought to a head what God wants for humans – love, faithfulness, and righteousness. The teachings of Jesus Christ about loving one another, forgiveness, healing the sick, caring for the poor, etc. (such as in Matthew 25) summarize the message of the bible. Jesus showed the power of these teachings by dying for us on the cross, forgiving us as he died. So, do we believe in the power of Christ’s death upon the cross? Yes!

Belief in the Resurrection

We believe in the mystery and power of the resurrection. Arguing over whether or not it happened literally misses the point of the power of the story. Atheists love it when we Christians do that! The fact we believe is Christ defeated death. The Body of Christ continues to live 2000 years later and Christ is the head of that Body! Biblical accounts of the resurrection and ascension are humans’ best attempt to explain something that is way beyond human comprehension, even though we continue to try. So, do we believe in the resurrection? Yes!

The Promise of Christ’s Return

We believe that someday everything in creation will go back to God who created it. We’re not sure how this will happen, or when it will happen. We believe that, as individuals, we return to God, one at a time, when we die. We believe that God loves all of us, even those of us who don’t believe in God. We believe that God’s determination to redeem all of creation, even us, is eternal. So, do we believe in the biblical promises of Christ’s return? Yes! We may not literally believe everything in the bible. However, we can believe that the bible is true. After all, it's our book and with God's help God's people are still writing it and caring for it even though we can't always agree on what it is.