Worship and Creative Expressions

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the Matter, where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraney, your host.

Show 31 508
Creation – Part III
August 2nd, 2016

Last week, I commented on the natural flow of artistic expression that comes through this ministry from various supporters and attendees. When you choose to name names, you always fail to mention some – and for this, I am so sorry. Also involved in presenting their creative efforts are Seth Model, whose skills in tech and website design keep us running, Earl Erskine (aka Bishop Earl) and his oil painting, Adam Guiman and his poetry, and Cassidy and her contributions in film with the movies Girl, Boy, and the future third part, God. If I have missed any others, please know that you and your creative labors are appreciated and forgive me for once again living up to my title of Jackass.

And with that, how about a moment from the Word.

Teachings from the 1st Epistle of John

Every now and again I am able to teach something in either Milk or Meat that bears repeating here, and tonight I am going to repeat something I discovered while teaching Meat last week. In our weekly Sunday Meat Gatherings (which, by the way, are available to you live every week at 10 AM for Milk and 2:30 PM for Meat) we are covering the 1st Epistle of John and found ourselves in chapter five this past week. There John writes:

13 These things have I written unto you that you believe on the name of the Son of God (this is why I have written these things in this epistle to you who believe on the name of Jesus, the Son of God – here we go) that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In the previous verse (12) John wrote the following (as written in the King James):

1st John 5:12 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

Understanding Continuous Action

But the best way to read this passage in the Greek is: “He that is having the Son has life.” What does this mean? It means it is a continuous continued action. It means that once saved always saved is a lie, and it means that believer must abide in Him by faith.

Remembering this about verse 12, listen to what John says here in verse 13 again!

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God (READY – this is why I have written to you…) “that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

He has written this epistle to those WHO BELIEVE ON THE SON (got that) so that they can:

• Know that they have eternal life AND
• That they may believe on the name of the Son of God!

H4: The Importance of Continued Belief

I thought he had written to those who already had believed on the Son – why is he then saying that he writes to them so that “they may believe?” By inserting one word here we can bring it all together –

13 These things have I written unto you that you believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may CONTINUE TO believe on the name of the Son of God.

Or, in harmony with the verse before, “that you will keep having the Son so you can continue to have life.”

He has written that they (and we) “may know that ye have eternal life,” because he wanted his audience of believers to KNOW that they have (present tense as believers) eternal life but just as importantly, he wanted them to persevere in this “life” and that is had only by continuing to have belief on the Son. John does not seem to wonder at all if the recipients of his epistle were believers – he admits that they are. But this does not stop him from writing so that they will “continue having Jesus.”

People have asked me why we continue to do CAMPUS if all things are done (in terms of the biblical narrative and God has had the victory through Christ)? “If brick and mortars have no real authority or power, why continue?”

The Importance of Feeding the Flock

To meet and teach? We do it for the same reason John wrote this epistle! Let me put it this way – if I was a full preterist AND a five-point Calvinist, I wouldn’t do CAMPUS. Why? Because in that case, God would still be all in all. But He would have also elected those who are his. Those then, as a Calvinist, I would believe that who are elected cannot fall no matter what. So to me, the entire deal would be sealed, especially in light of how I see the Bible and its contents being secondary and referential to the faith.

However, I am not a Five Point Calvinist, and I do believe that even today, one of the single most important things people who consider themselves pastors are supposed to do is to feed the flock – with what? The Word of God! Not with programs. Not to bind them with rules and obligations or demands – but to feed them the Word of God. Why? So they will continue to HAVE CHRIST so they will continue to LIVE so they will continue to be saved.

I am personally convinced that whoever has received and believed Christ MUST continue to be fed the word or they, like the very cream of the crop Saints in the days of John, could – could stop “having Christ.” I’ve seen it first hand on several occasions – and nobody can tell me that those who have detached from the vine or have fallen on rocky or thorny soil are there because “they never really knew Him in the first place.”

Where unbelievers are like people out in a desert dying of thirst but refusing filtered ice water of Christ right before their eyes (which is the reason we have missional efforts) we have a similar parallel in the picture of people who have had Christ but are no longer fed – these are like the masses of armless believers today starving to death in a banquet hall full of food because there is no one willing to serve them. John has PROVEN in these verses that those who believe on the Son can stop “having such belief in Him.” This places a heavy obligation upon the backs of those who consider themselves shepherds in the flock.

The Role of the Shepherd

And under the weight of this burden is the absolute reality that the only thing that will nourish and strengthen and prepare the flock is them being fed the Word. The human heart – even when converted – is prone to disbelief – and our religious affections so easily become cold in the face of this world. We all need to be reminded that we are to keep having Him to keep having life, and not be falsely reassured that we have Him (and life eternal) and there is no reason to continue to eat.

And with that, how about a moment from The Board of Direction?

(Run Board of Direction here please)

Five Central Truths of the Faith

FIVE CENTRAL TRUTHS OF THE FAITH
ON BOARD:
Os Guiness, Norm Geisler, Matt Slick, Me
(add) (add) (add) (add in the end)
JESUS

Over the course of ministry, I have been maligned and greatly diminished in character by others in the faith who take exception to some of my views. These unorthodox views include questions and wonderment about the following topics: The Trinity, The Eternal Punishment of Souls, The Total Reconciliation of all Humankind, True Eschatological Position, The Purpose and Place of the Bible Today, The Personhood of the Holy Spirit. It’s not that I deny the Trinity, I just am not convinced that it is truly understood or that men have properly defined it. Nor do I say punishment isn’t eternal, I just question the premise relative to conscience and (that’s right, and) scripture.

In his most recent book, titled Fools Talk, author Os Guiness says the following: “ . . . Christian advocacy must always be independent. It must always be consistent to itself and shaped decisively by the great truths of the scripture, and in particular by the five central truths of the faith . . . ” and then at this point, he lists what he has called, “the five central truths of the faith.” Now, prior to reading them, I have had Christian Evangelicals detail the essentials of the Christian faith for me either directly or indirectly. Norm Geisler lists what he says, “the minimum necessary to believe in order to be saved is: (isn’t that amazing – the minimum necessary to believe in order to be saved is!!!!)

1. human depravity, 2) Christ’s sinlessness, 3) Christ’s deity, 4) Christ’s humanity, 6) God’s unity, 7) God’s trinuity, 8) the necessity of

Core Doctrines of Christian Faith

God’s grace, (9) the necessity of faith, (10) Christ’s atoning death, and (11) Christ’s bodily resurrection.” My friend Matt Slick of (Carm.org) says this: “The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel (which is defined in different ways by different people) and monotheism.” But after listing these five Matthew amplifies each with so many qualifiers that the five become twenty in the blink of an eye.

It’s an intriguing thing because scripture makes salvation quite simple saying:

Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Anyway, back to Os Guiness. His list of the “five central truths of the faith are the creation, the fall, the incarnation, the cross, and the Spirit of God.” I realize that there may be a play on words here and Os may be speaking of “five central truths,” while Slick and Geisler are talking about “the core essentials to the faith,” but in the end, aren’t we talking about the same thing?

I personally want to see brother Guiness’s list as authoritative. I like the fact that Trinity and Escatology and Eternal punishment aren’t mentioned here. I like the fact that Christians can unitedly agree that God created heaven and the earth and all things on them that are, that Man fell from relationship with God, that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us, that He was placed on a cross to die for the sins of the World and that He now dwells within all who receive Him by the Spirit. I enjoy the fact that all the arguable differences that lie outside these five central truths have been left out and that we can all understand the five in some unique ways without finding ourselves ostracized from the body.

Having said all this though, I do welcome anyone – Geisler and Slick included – into the body no matter how many essentials they add to their specific list.

A Simple Core Belief

I just wish this was a two-way road. I have five essentials to the faith, five core elements to being a Christian too – but they are five simple letters.

JESUS.

This says it ALL.

Creation

And with that let’s continue on our topic of creation. We’ve talked about where both the LDS and the biblical Christians say matter originates so let’s move on to the actual creation of heaven and earth.

The Purpose of Creation

Before getting into the nuts and bold of the Genesis account and all that it entails I want to use tonight to talk about something Christians have a hard time answering but the LDS have a ready-made response –

Why did God create the heavens, and the earth, and all that in them is? Why did He create animals, fish, birds, insects and Man?

In Mormonism, humankind was created to have joy as founder of the faith taught:

“Happiness is the object and design of our existence, and it will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it.”

Now, while to many people on the outside looking in on Mormonism this may not seem like a major declaration. In fact, the declaration is in harmony with the Arminianist view which existed well before Joseph Smith articulated it.

You see, in the Old Testament we aren’t given too much insight as to why God created the heavens, the earth and all that in them is. Except for one passage all the Old Testament seems to give us are declarative statements. For instance . . .

Psalm 100:3 says: Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

And in Isaiah 45:12 we read:

“I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.”

And then in Jeremiah 27:5: “I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.”

But none of them tells us why. However, in Isaiah 43:7 we get one slight insight:

“Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created

God's Purpose in Creation

him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.”

From this (pretty much) single principle many Christians have decided that God created the heavens and earth for man and that man was created to glorify Him – that is the purpose of our existence – to glorify God. We note, however, that in scripture, those that glorify Him are always described as those who are His. Did God also create human beings who are not His in this life to glorify Him too? In a way, but not in the same way.

From the Old Testament perspective God created human beings that are His to glorify Himself but those who are not His He created them to evidence His power and might.

Biblical Perspectives

For example, in Exodus 9:12, God says to the rebellious Pharaoh (who was not His):

“For THIS cause I have raised thee up, for to shew in thee MY power, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.”

Later in the New Testament, especially in the Book of Romans, this idea is even more specifically articulated as Paul describes God as creating both “vessels of wrath” and what he calls, “vessels of mercy.”

This idea seems to be supported in the positive in an Old Testament passage in Isaiah 49:5 where Isaiah, speaking of the reason that the Lord created him, says:

“And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant . . .”

From these passages – and pretty much these passages alone, Calvinists have stood on the idea that the reason God has created some is for eternal glory and most others for eternal torture. Again, to the Calvinist, this is the purpose and reason God created the human race – for some to glorify Him (because He has created them and elected them to do this very thing not of their own free will but because He created them to be and do this) and for the vast majority of others to evidence His might and power by creating them as vessels of wrath (or people who will be the recipients of His anger and wrath for eternity).

Admittedly, the few passages are present in Romans 9 – this cannot be denied. He is the Potter and we are the clay. But the idea that God created most human beings to suffer eternally in the fires of hell to prove that He has the power to do so is inconsistent with God being love, God desiring to save all, Him not being willing that any should perish, and that human beings all have a will (as in Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING.”

Certainly something has been lost in the Five Point interpretation of things. Recognizing this the Arminianist’s – and in opposition to five point Calvinist, decided that God created all human beings to have happiness (a concept that Mormonism borrowed from them very soon after their founding in 1830).

Divergent Views

In a Methodist Magazine printed in 1831 we read that to the Calvinist . . .

“God created all things for his own glory, That He had no other view in creating man . . . than His own interest” and the article goes on and opposing this view says that, “God created men for their own happiness.”

Obviously Smith embraced the Arminianism view very early on in his thoughts as he included in his BOM the line:

“Men are that they might have joy.”

I don’t know why (maybe because I am too dense to clearly see how all sides cannot be accepted) but I don’t know why we have polarized ourselves into these opposing, divergent views and have been able to merge them both together (as all of these views are clearly supported by the Bible). For instance, where the Bible is clear that God has created us and chosen us specifically to glorify Him, why can’t we agree that He has done this according to His foreknowledge, according to his purposes, and that whether we have been created as vessels of mercy or vessels of temporary wrath He is just and will us all of us to His expected good end?

Why do we have to declare that the object of human existence is to have felicity and joy when our own experience clearly proves that it is through difficulty and trial (not happiness) that we truly learn to experience fleeting moments of peace.

The Purpose of Creation

Narrow statements that God has created us solely for His own glory when scripture clearly shows that man is to share in God’s light and to be part of His family through Christ, even Romans 8:17 says, as Joint heirs with Christ, if we “suffer with Him.”

While Joseph Smith's allegiance with the Arminianist views was an attempt to distance LDS thought from the despotic, arbitrary, capricious God of Calvinism, it is not less myopic. Mormons today say God created us so that we can have joy, so that we can progress and even become Gods. Christians say everything from God created us so “he could have fellowship with us,” so that He could receive all the glory,” (whether in electing us or damning us to eternal fires).

Reasons Behind Creation

I say God created us because…

This is His nature – to create. That He created us (in His image) for the same reason those of us who have been created in His image have children – to create, and extend elements of ourselves out to others. That He created us because… God is love, and love is life-giving, not life-taking. Love is death taking, and seeks to remove pain and dross and difficulty, but love is not life-taking. So He, being love, is life-giving, and by giving us life it is an expression of His very nature and person. That He created us because… He is a bestower of good and light, and in giving us life He continues to bestow Himself, through life, and light, and love.

That, because He is good, and gives life, He knows that where there is real living there is real choice, and where there is real choice there is real freedom and where there is real freedom there is always failure, sin, loss and death.

God's Knowledge and Creation

I also believe that in the face of all of this, He has created us with the ability to believe and receive. He has known who would believe and receive, and created them to become Joint Heirs with His Son. And He has known who would reject and disrespect, and these He will ultimately reconcile into His ultimate will and ways.

Why did God create the heaven and earth and all that in them is – knowing all that would happen and be before it occurred? Because God is love. And He so loved the world (that He created) He sent his only Begotten Son to save us. Which He did.

With that let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

While the operators are clearing your calls let’s take a look at this:

SPOT

EMAILS

From: Barbara & Don Eggerton
Subject: My son, Brad Eggerton
Message Body:

hi Shawn,
I don't know if you remember my son, Brad Eggerton, from a few years back. He was on your show about six years ago– he was a videographer from the Fort Worth, Texas area and he went on several mission trips to Utah while he was in college at the University of North Texas. I just wanted to just let you know that now my son has turned away from God completely and now he says he doesn't believe in God and he believes in evolution. He told us this about four years ago and it broke our heart. Brad used to be so strong in his faith in the Lord. I was wanting to ask you to maybe get in touch with Brad just to talk with him. Brad's email address is: bradeggerton@gmail.com Brad always loved going to Utah to witness to the Mormons and he was so excited when he got to be on your show. My husband and I would appreciate your prayers and if you can reach out to Brad we would so appreciate it. Thank you so much!

??DAS IDYLLWILD SCHONGEBIET

P.O. Box 617

25685 Big Pine Street

IDYLLWILD, CA 92549-0617

?(951) ?468-0005 Home (Google)

(760) 716-3534 Cell

TO:
Born Again Mormons
<>

FROM: DRWWadsworth@gmail

DATE: 7/30/16

SUBJECT: Pearl of Great Price proven to be a fraud

THREAD: Pearl of Great Price proven to be a fraud

RE: 13 Reasons why Mormonism is a False Religion!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annota

Reason #12 “The Pearl of Great Price is a fraud,” Egyptologists, “Completely made up by Joseph Smith and company.”

On my mission, this was where I hung my hat! I unquestionably believed the Book of Mormon was true! I couldn’t prove it! It was entirely based on faith, I loved the Book of Mormon. Then I ran across whole chapters of Isaiah which were copied – plagiarized – by Joseph Smith and company. Still, I rationalized it somehow as God’s handiwork! You see,

Evaluating Religious Beliefs

I had nothing tangible to prove the Book of Mormon true but Joseph Smith provided facsimiles of the Pearl of Great Price which no one could or would even try to disprove. It wasn’t until I found out that Egyptologists declared the Pearl of Great Price a fraud that I began to re-evaluate my beliefs. I couldn’t find one Egyptologist that would say the facsimiles are bonafide. As a matter of fact, I uncovered writings between Joseph Smith and others which clearly laid out a conspiracy between Joseph and others to defraud Mormons and non-Mormons into believing this fraud and the Kinderhook Plates fraud – which was initiated by anti-Mormons to set up Joseph Smith and the co-conspirators into claiming they could translate the plates all of which occurred. Many of these things the church touched on very briefly, long enough just to lie about the true facts and call it, “A discredited fraud against the church!”

I came to be familiar with FARMS because of one of your tenants which damned the Mormon Church and which I was not prepared to accept. I was still blindly loyal!

Experiences with Various Faiths

Now, I’m 99.999999% positive there is such a thing as a True Church! I’ve studied Catechism, about 10 Protestant faiths e.g. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Christian Scientists, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, Church of God, Buddhism, Islam, the Followers of Veda commonly known in the west as Hinduism, Islam, and Taoism. I was solidly Mormon for even 30 years even after the Mormon Church wrongly excommunicated me for being homosexual which I flatly denied and demanded they prove their doctrine by the words of Jesus Christ or Revelation. No one could!!!

I hate the fact that I was lied to for 69 years – that I can never forgive them for that – and they stole thousands of dollars and years of time but it is typical of all religions. I still believe in the Bible but I’m not sure which belief is biblical and which was Mormon indoctrination.

The thing I detest the most is that I was bald faced lied – mentally raped – to regarding a belief in God! If the Bible is true, Joseph Smith and his rape and co-defilers of mankind will suffer a fate comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Thank you, please advise.

Sincerely,

David R.W. Wadsworth

Thanks for your long-awaited reply, Shawn. Have you not been ill during the last 6 months.

Discussion on Scriptural Interpretations

Checked your archive section and listened to episode 477, you wrote: “To God, the Nation of Israel was His bride to whom He was betrothed, one to whom He was married and now one to whom he granted a bill of divorce”.

Please tell me where that idea is found in Scripture. You mentioned Exodus 24, but divorce is not used there.

1 Chron 16:13-17 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

What is an everlasting Covenant – do you believe God broke the everlasting Covenant he made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

If that statement is true, God is a Covenant breaker and cannot be trusted.

From: Joshua
Subject: Kolob

Message Body: I have a question on Mormon belief about Kolob what is the time of Kolob or the coming of it and more importantly their signs about its coming like do they think someone will predict something in advance like who will sit on the Quorum of 12 what is the Kolob theory as well I would love to hear the truth about this and have what I see confirmed or verified really. I have been watching episodes of your programs through the archives. I began with #405 on Christian Subjectivism, and have just completed a 2nd watching of the Has Jesus Returned Series. I took many notes with scripture passages, am planning to do my own Bible study about this topic. Every church I have ever attended has taught the people to be ready because the Rapture is soon coming. I left a particular church I was attending in the '70s and '80s because a great deal of their focus was on Rapture readiness. The reverend had written a very dramatic novel, in my opinion, about the Rapture and the consequences of being left behind. And to be ready to go, it was taught by the reverend that a great deal of God´s power would be needed, and that this power could be supplied by having the in-dwelling.

Examining Different Beliefs in Christianity

of the Holy Ghost. But, a person could only know if they had the Holy Ghost inside if they spoke in tongues as God gives utterance. I didn’t believe that teaching was biblical, (along with other teachings), so I left.

Shawn, you use the Bible to teach (with Greek) that Christ returned in 70 A.D. I never would have thought that there were so many scriptures that told that Jesus’ return was soon, for the Jews, at that time, it was “at hand.” Others teach that He is still coming in the future. Did I miss a part of your teaching where you cited scriptures other teachers use to support that the Rapture is a future event?? My question is, how have pastors/teachers/seekers concluded, from scripture, that Jesus Christ is still to return to earth?? Shawn, if possible, I would appreciate it if you could answer me back by email. Thank you.
Veronica

Catholicism and Its Traditions

From: joan lantis
Subject: catholicism
Message Body:
shawn sounds catholic to me. not the catholicism we mormons were taught, but the actual universal church Jesus started and said the gates of hell would not prevail against. catholics have tradition handed down from God before a new testament existed and which was given us from the catholic church. i myself would never have even considered the catholic faith had i not studied my way out of mormonism, studied and found protestantism severely wanting and started to look at the church God started. as shawn stated that church would exist with both good and bad in it simultaneously. i have found catholic apologists to be highly intelligent and compelling in their arguments.
Read more

New Religious Texts

From: Jay
Subject: Book Comparable to the BoM
Message Body:
Hi Shawn, I am a less active member of the church in Australia. For half a year now I've struggled with the faith and want to thank you for revealing the truth and hiw i can see that i haad been blind for 19 years as a convert. I was wondering if you could help with something I've been trying to show a friend of mine who is starting to question the church. On one of your early episodes you mentioned a new religion that has embraced the Quran and BoM and have had another book revealed to them. As I recall it has been founded in Europe somewhere. I'm hoping you could help me with my question. As I've been trying to find the name of this book for sometime and want to show how ridiculous the very discovery of a book of scriptures can be. Any assistance is appreciated.
Jay

Conversion to Christianity

From: Joshua Thomas
Subject: episode 387 what was said as response to ohio
Message Body:
Hello, im a recent convert to Christianity from lds. I very much enjoy heart of the matter and it has helped me much through my transition. This is somewhat off the cuff here, but when Shawn was responding to the caller from ohio asking how to convert to Christianity I found myself saying "no shawn its through Jesus that we converted! Through giving ourselves to Jesus we are saved! By the son we are known to the father!" Lol. I could be wrong but it seemed as though the answer was very vague and complex when I have come to believe it to be simple with the help of Mr Shawn. Am I interpreting this wrong? Thank you for your time in reading this. God bless and keep up the good work 🙂