Introduction to Heart of the Matter

"Live from the Mecca of Mormonism"

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH –

This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity face to face. Show 15 BOM 42 – Harvest G April 10th, 2012. And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.. We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this ministry. May He be with you (and us) tonight.

Church Services and Online Resources

All right, “weez” back on schedule now and are gonna pick back up on our examination of the BOM. But first… some announcements. Grab a pencil – go on, go on. Here we gooooooooo!

SUNDAYS? 10 am and 2:30 pm we hold what we think church should be like. Milk is at 10 am, Meat is at 2:30 pm. Now our Website genius Micah has finished our CAMPUS website: Here’s the site address: www.c-a-m-p-u-s.com. The site explains what “Christian AnarchySomeone who follows Christ as their only authority—rejecting institutional control over their spiritual life.” is, what the CAMPUS distinctive are, and how to get to where we meet. It also is hosting all of our teachings. Go check it out: www.c-a-m-p-u-s.com.

Also on Sundays, Heart of the Matter replays on AM 820 The Truth. AM 820 is a great Christian radio station, and when I listen to Christian radio, it is where I go. Great information. AM 820 the Truth.

Recommended Churches

Now, just because we have church does not mean we don’t recommend other churches in Utah. I am personally fond of: Any and all Alpine Churches, Calvary Chapel SLC with Pastor Terry Long, The Church at Liberty Park, Sandy Ridge with Pastor Travis Mitchell, GoodShepherd Lutheran with Pastor Jeff Nellermoe, Center Point in Orem with Pastor Scott McKinney, Provo Baptist with Pastor Neil Pafford, and Calvary Chapel in Cedar City. These churches are all about teaching the Word, helping all people, and have been supportive of Alathea (without being commanded).

Speaking of churches doing all they can to reach out and prepare themselves to receive incoming LDS, I also want to mention a phenomenal tool that is being utilized by churches all over the state. It’s called Transitions. I agreed to promote any church that is in one way or another “Transitions trained.” So here is a current list:

• Adventure Church, American Fork, American Fork, UT
• Alpine Church, Layton, Layton, UT
• Alpine Church, West Haven, Murray, UT
• Cache Valley Bible Church, Logan, UT
• Calvary Chapel, Clearfield, Clearfield, UT
• Calvary Chapel, Salt Lake City, Salt Lake City
• First Presbyterian Church, Salt Lake City, Salt Lake City, UT
• Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Sandy, UT
• Holy Cross Lutheran Church, Brigham City, UT

Don’t see your church? Tell your leadership to get “Transitions” Go to www.ldstransitions.com.

Alathea Ministries and The Ex-Files

Okay, Alathea Ministries – because of your support – produces another program aimed at helping people see and hear the differences between being LDS and being a regenerated Christian. The name? “The Ex-Files.” It airs right here on TV 20 Friday nights 8 PM. Want to be interviewed? Email Bishop Earl at www.exmormonfiles.tv and get wid-it. We NEED your personal stories – now.

Okay, we have a NUMBER of PRODUCTS available to you for your informational, entertainment, and spiritual growth. We’re gonna show them to you now:

(RUN ALATHEA PRODUCT VIDEO HERE)

In addition to the site, there are a number of places you can pick up our books: “Where Mormonism Meets Christianity Face to Face is available nationwide at Family Christian Bookstores. Here in Utah, you can also pick one up from UTLM.org, Life Way Christian Bookstore, and Calvary Chapel SLC. You can ALSO go to Amazon.com and order a copy through them – they are actually printing it ON DEMAND for us. We praise God for making this book available in so many places at this important time in the Mormon/Christian debate. UTLM, LIFEWAY here in Utah, and Calvary Chapel SLC also carry our other books.

Got this email recently from a good supporter named Stew. It said, in part: “Hey, the show on SLC being the gayest city wasn't that great. It seemed out of character with the guy who explained gay sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. is the same thing as heterosexual sin. The show seemed a little unkind. I know gay people who are very nice people, and it felt like they were being disrespected. I'm not trying to have you soft sell or unite or anything like that. But the flamboyantly gay persona seemed to be in conflict with your style/message. This is just my opinion AND I know it's a live show AND I know you're not perfect. I

Addressing Stereotypes and Acceptance

do not have any prejudices toward gay people. My thought is that if they grew up LDS and they are confused and/or having internal conflict and searching. Your show would really help them. You have explained that many LDS go atheist or agnostic – so your show can bring them back or plant seeds.

I Wrote back and explained a few things. First of all, if I represented something about the homosexual community that was NOT true, I sincerely apologize. I thought my characterizations were right on, but quite frankly I don’t even remember what I said and did (that’s part of the problem with being me). Secondly, in this age of hyper-sensitivity I refuse to treat any special interest group with “special treatment” or respect. People are people. White trash people have certain general characteristics endemic to them as a whole. Blacks, Hispanics, Greeks, Italians, gays, and nerds – whatever. Even fat white guys who host low-brow television shows can be caricatures.

In other words, I try and say “what I see” while at the same time NOT loving anyone one whit less than another. Anyone. Ever. In my opinion this approach accomplishes several things. First, it allows me to be free – and that is mandatory in my life and in the Christian walk. Second, it allows me to freely love – which is also mandatory for me and in the Christian walk. And finally, it lets people who are part of a special interest group know I love and accept them as they are, that I will speak to them where they are and as they are, and that they are getting the real deal from me (as far as this is humanly possible).

An Example of Acceptance

One quick example: Whenever I meet black people in SLC I say something like, "Okay, I gotta know, what's a black man doing in UTAH?" Now people around me or with me who hear me say this often get VERY uncomfortable. But the black people, they always laugh and laugh. In other words, they know what I mean, and they know my heart towards them. I have absolutely no barriers on the love AND acceptance I have for all people – all.

Alright, how about a “Moment from the Word?”

The Sabbath and Christian Observance

Well, it’s been a few weeks since we’ve been in the Word. The last time we covered a healing Jesus did in John chapter four. Long story short, Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath, and at verse sixteen we read:

“And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.”

The Sabbath day?

If you want a far more detailed account of it, check out a copy of “A to Z,” but bottom line: It has always been and will only be Saturday. It was a covenant between God and the Nation of Israel. Compliance to it means a lot of restrictions. And it purposefully served as a day of REST at the end of a long week under the Law.

This past Sunday many churches celebrated the raised Christ in what they refer to as Easter – which today is a Christian celebration of the Lord rising from the grave. But in actuality every Sunday is a resurrection Sunday, which is when the Christian church gathered as a recognition of the Lord rising and therefore fulfilling the Law on our behalf. Sunday is the first day of the week in which Christians (who have their rest in Christ everyday) springboard into the rest of the week.

Enter the LDS who have called Sunday the Sabbath day and have heaped upon their members just as much to do on that day as they do on other days of the week – but most of it is geared toward serving the church. Don’t believe me? Just accept a calling of consequence and you’ll know what I mean.

Again . . . again, in Mormonism it is ALL about the Church – allegiance to it, service in it, devotion in its name. But in true Christianity it is ALL about the King.

This leads me to a point my good friend Brandon pointed out quoting Lee Strobel:

“If you take Christ out of Mormonism you would still have Mormonism.”

“But if you take Christ out of true Christianity, you would have nothing.”

I think this is really a viable point not only relative to Mormonism, but to every Church on earth, which

The Role of Christ in Church and the Witness of the Golden Plates

The discussion ought to constantly ask itself: “If you removed Christ from the Church you attend, from its focus, its activities, its sermons and groups, would the church continue to exist?” If the answer is “yes,” choose another church. And with that, let’s have a prayer.

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

Examination of Joseph's Witnesses for the Golden Plates

Alright, three weeks ago we left off talking about Joseph’s witnesses for the existence of the Golden Plates. If you recall, there were two sets of witnesses – a set of three men and a set of eight. All of them came from two families – the Smith’s and the Whitmer’s – with the exception being Martin Harris, who I believe was “the mark” the men from the two families were preying upon. Why? To get his money to fund the printing. Now that is just my opinion, but as you listen to the facts see if you find any merit to it.

For various reasons, Joseph needed to have witnesses “see” the golden plates before the angel Moroni took them back to heaven forevermore. In and of itself doesn’t this oddity make you sort of sit up and say, “Oh, come on?”

Comparison with the Bible's Origin

I mean look at how the Bible came to be. He commanded people to write. They wrote. Copies of what they wrote were made by scribes. These were handed down. When the copies got old they were tossed and burned, with new ones continuing on. So what up with all this Golden Plate business and an angel transporting them around for Joseph only to then take them up to heaven so nobody else can see them? Pure con-man magic.

Now, we have to step back and look at the possibilities regarding the witnesses. Pretend you are like a police detective and you’re listening in on a presentation of the possibilities of this situation. There are two main possibilities when it comes to these men witnessing literal Gold plates:

First, the Golden Plates really existed and these witnesses saw them. That’s it. It’s true.

OR

Scrutiny of the Witnesses' Testimonies

There were no Golden Plates of ancient origin. If this is true then we have to then ask, so what did the witnesses see? Three options: They either saw Nothing? They THINK they saw something? OR they saw something that pretended to be the plates.

Going back to the first main premise, that Golden Plates actually existed, then we have a whole new line of thinking we have to pursue – like, “Why then, having actually seen REAL Ancient Golden Plates, would ANY of the Witnesses walk from the faith?” And also “Why did the first three witnesses ONLY get to see them “with the eyes of faith,” and not get to hold them and see them in real material terms like the eight others who came from the same family?”

On the other hand if there weren’t any real golden plates, we have to ask – “What did the first three witnesses see (if anything) with their spiritual eyes, and what did the eight witnesses actually handle with their physical hands (if anything)?” Additionally, if there weren’t any gold plates, we have to ask What was really going on through all this and why did these men testify that these Golden Plates existed.

I believe we’ll discover viable answers to these questions as we move along in our examination. Now obviously, I do not believe there were ANY Golden Plates whatsoever of ancient origin. But I admit there could have been some metal fabrications made up by Joseph and or the Smiths (and possibly the Whitmer’s) in the Smith’s Cooper Shop to resemble ancient plates – but we’ll never know.

Okay. So first there were three witnesses. And what does their testimony say about seeing the plates:

In part it reads: “And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an Angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon . . .

This statement, authored by who I think was Joseph Smith, was endorsed by the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. Now, remember, Oliver Cowdery was a relative of the Smith’s and actually lived with Joseph’s parents while Joseph was off “translating the plates” in another part of the state. And remember that David Whitmer was good friends with Oliver, and the Whitmer family shared a lot in common in their friendship with the Smith's.

Examination of the First Three Witnesses

(like interest in treasure digging etc.). Also recall that these two men sort of represented the two separate families of eight men who are supposed to have ACTUALLY seen the plates later.

Okay, now remember, according to the BOM and other accounts these first three witnesses did NOT actually see the physical plates.

When Martin Harris was in the print shop while the BOM was being printed, the print man, named John Gilbert, asked Harris point blank: “Have you seen the plates with the naked eye?” Harris paused then replied, “No. I have seen them with the spiritual eye.” In later accounts, Harris repeatedly testified of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, but always made it clear that he did not see them but with what he called “spiritual eyes.” But when the three witnesses were supposed to get together and see the plates, Joseph was still in possession of them…

The Significance of Spiritual Sight

So why didn’t the first three witnesses get to see and handle the plates in a physical sense like the eight later on?

(beat) This is so important. Why didn’t the first three witnesses get to actually handle the plates but instead only got to see them through vision? Because there were no plates. And it was Joseph and Oliver and David Whitmer’s job to convince Martin Harris that there actually were.

Not convinced? Well let’s look at what happened when the first three witnesses were supposed to “see” the plates. I would suggest that it was here Joseph Smith played upon the spiritual fanaticism of Martin Harris, and got Oliver and Whitmer to agree to join in OR he duped them too. Either way, how did Joseph prime the pump for the con, so to speak? First, while translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph claims to have discovered that there were to be three witnesses to the plates – who would be chosen by God. I’m sure Joseph mentioned this fact to Harris, who was chomping at the bit to be one of them since he was being courted to finance them being printed. Then Joseph received “a revelation!” where he had God reveal that these special witnesses would be Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and yes, indeed, Martin Harris.

Finally, Joseph took these three men and had them pray, and pray, and pray FERVENTLY to prove to the Lord that they were in fact, worthy to be his special three witnesses. Unreal. If either Oliver or Whitmer (or both) were in on the con, one of them, at the right time, probably shouted or fell back or started shaking and saying, “I sees it! I sees it!” To which the other, as decided beforehand, might do the same on que.

Joseph Smith's Role

I cannot prove that Cowdery and/or Whitmer were in on the con, but even if they weren’t, all Joseph was doing was what hypnotists do on carnival stands all over the world on any given weekend… persuading, manipulating, convincing people see and hear and think what is not really there.

But I AM still pretty certain Cowdery at least, if not Whitmer too, were in on the con as a means to CONvince the gullible and rich Harris that the plates were real. By listening to Joseph Smith’s own report of what happened when the three witnesses (plus Joseph Smith, mind you) retired to the woods we might get some insight into what was really going down.

After Joseph received his revelation on the names of the three men who got to be “special witnesses,” this is what Smith said occurred: “Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfillment of the promises given in the revelation; that they should have a view of the plates etc. We… knelt down (and) we began to pray on much faith, to Almighty God to bestow upon us a realization of these promises… I commenced, by vocal prayer to our heavenly Father, and was followed by each of the rest in succession; we did not yet however obtain any answer, or manifestation of the divine favor in our behalf. We again observe the same order of prayer each calling on and praying fervently to God in rotation; but with the same result as before. Upon our second failure, Martin Harris proposed that he withdraw himself from us, believing as he expressed himself that his presence was the cause of

The Vision of the Plates

our not obtaining what we wished for; he accordingly withdrew from us, and we knelt down again, and had not been many minutes in prayer when presently we beheld a light above us in the air of exceeding brightness, and behold an angel stood before us, in his hands he held the plates which we had been praying for these to have a view of . . .” (History of Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol 3 number 21 (August 15th 1842 pp. 897-898).

Now let me re-read that to you and give you some commentary:

“Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfillment of the promises given in the revelation; that they should have a view of the plates etc.

(Now ask yourself, if God told Joseph that there were to be witnesses, and God told Joseph the names of those who were to be the three witnesses, why did they have to retire to the woods and “try and obtain this vision through fervent and humble prayer PROVING THEY WERE WORTHY?)”

The Search for Worthiness

Smith goes on:

“We . . . knelt down (and) we began to pray in much faith, to Almighty God to bestow upon us a realization of these promises . . . I commenced, by vocal prayer to our heavenly Father, and was followed by each of the rest in succession; we did not yet however obtain any answer, or manifestation of the divine favor in our behalf.”

(AGAIN, same question. I mean does God make promises and then make us jump through hoops to see them come about?)

Martin Harris' Withdrawal

Here’s more:

“We again observe the same order of prayer each calling on and praying fervently to God in rotation; but with the same result as before. Upon our second failure, Martin Harris proposed that he withdraw himself from us, believing as he expressed himself that his presence was the cause of our not obtaining what we wished for; he accordingly withdrew from us,”

(So the way Joseph tells it, Old Martin Harris spoke up and said, “Gents, God is not showing us the plates because I am not worthy. Allow me to withdraw so the Angel may come.)”

But unfortunately, Martin Harris tells a very different story of what happened – one that perfectly reveals that a con was underway. This is what Harris said of the event:

“When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at that time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. THEY ALL BELIEVED (meaning Joseph, Oliver, and David Whitmer) it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew.”

Their plan worked!

They would pray and pray, tell Harris he was gumming up the angelic visit because of his unworthiness, Harris would leave, and then they would say, “Ah glory be! We seed da plates!”

So with Martin Harris out of the way and seeking “to get right with God” somewhere out there in the woods, Joseph continues his narrative of what happened, saying:

“and we knelt down again, and had not been many minutes in prayer when presently we beheld a light above us in the air of exceeding brightness, and behold an angel stood before us, in his hands he held the plates which we had been praying for these to have a view of . . .” (History of Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol 3 number 21 (August 15th 1842 pp. 897-898).

Okay? So we see the con in action. With Harris absent from those either easily convinced by Joseph or in on the con, they were all able to “see the plates” in vision.

Joseph Smith continues his account on what happened next:

“I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, who I found at a considerable distance, fervently engaged in prayer, he soon told me however that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me to join him in prayer, that he might also realize the same blessings which we had just received. We accordingly joined in prayer, and ultimately obtained our desires, for before we had just finished, the same vision was opened to our view; at least it was again to me . . . whilst at the same moment,

Martin Harris and the Vision of the Plates

Martin Harris cried out, apparently in ecstasy of joy. “Tis enough, mine eyes have beheld, and jumping up shouted, Hosanna, blessing God, and otherwise rejoicing exceedingly.”

Let’s conclude tonight with re-reading this and explaining what occurred between the lines. Joseph said:

“I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, who I found at a considerable distance, fervently engaged in prayer, he soon told me however that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me to join him in prayer, that he might also realize the same blessings which we had just received.”

Notice a few details Smith includes: He says that he left the other two witnesses and pursued Harris and found him “a considerable distance” away fervently praying but God had not visited him. It was important that Smith put Harris “a great distance away” so as to eliminate him as seeing or not seeing what the other two did when they supposedly saw the plates in vision. Then Smith said Harris asked him to help him pray to see if that would help. So there, all alone in the wilderness, Harris and Joseph Smith are supposedly praying.

The Witness of the Plates

I would bet that Smith told Harris the others had already had a witness, and now it was all upon him so the Lord’s will could be done. Smith adds:

We accordingly joined in prayer, and ultimately obtained our desires, for before we had just finished, the same vision was opened to our view; at least it was again to me . . .

Now the line Joseph added, “at least it was to me” is crucial to the con. In the end Harris turned out to be a wild hair in early Mormonism and by this time Joseph wrote this account he needed to protect himself from Harris and the things he would say. To cover himself he reports that before they had finished praying they achieved their desires with the same vision opening up to he and Harris’s view (and then Joseph adds in an almost Jeffery Holland-esque manner) “at least it was to me” – just in case Harris was going to continue to cause trouble.

But then Joseph adds,

“whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in ecstacy of joy. “Tis enough, mine eyes have beheld,” and jumping up shouted, “Hosanna, blessing God, and otherwise rejoicing exceedingly. ”

Understanding Martin Harris's Response

I think Harris’s words, “Tis enough” say something remarkable. He was tired, he was trying, he was praying fervently . . . and under the pressure of Joseph simply was saying, “Okay, okay! Tis enough, mine eyes have beheld.” And I think he really believed he had. And there you have the supposed witness of the first three witnesses to the plates. We’ll cover the eight next week.

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801) 973-8820
(801) 973-TV20

First time callers only. LDS callers preferred. “Turn down thy DAMMED television sets!”

While the OPS clears your calls, check this out.

(By the way, there are pathetic rumors on the internet by lying LDS who say we screen out callers who are too tough. This is not true. ANYONE and EVERYONE is welcome so long as they have even a semi-logical point, and are not a repeat caller. We would NOT even do the repeat caller rule if there weren’t people out there who call every single week – but know this, there is not a caller on earth I fear – especially those who call to represent Mormonism.

Okay, check this out:

(RUN NEW PARTNERS SPOT HERE)

EMAILS AND CALLS

AMIDST CALLS:

• National Tour
• Run WEBSITE HIGHLIGHT SPOT

Get ready with The National Tour Spot and (the New) Partners spot during calls AND New Website Highlight Spot AT THE END OF THE SHOW. New Website Spot with TWO MINUTES LEFT.

Back to Shawn for wrap-up.

In an Email Jonathan wrote this: Thought you may want to check out the April 2012 Issue of Christianity Today. On Page 13, there is a story of a Mormon who embezzled funds from her employer wanting to exempt 10% of her Income from restitution for tithing. The Judge denied the application but it does show the legalismRule-based religion is over. Faith and love—not law—define life with God now. that you speak of. Also, what the ***** is Mormonism doing in Christianity Today?