Eternal Punishment Discussion

“God is love.”
John the Beloved – 1st John 4:8

Heart of the Matter Broadcast

Show 52 428
Eternal Punishment Part VII
December 30th 2014

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, this is Heart of the Matter where Institutionalized Religion meets Jesus Christ face to face. I’m your host Shawn McCraney.

Well it’s the last show of the year. December 30th 2014 8pm Mountain Time to 9 pm Mountain Time. We are going to wrap up our last segment on whether eternal punishment is a biblical tenet or possibly one of the greatly misunderstood teachings of modern-day Christianity.

Viewer Feedback

Before we get into it, I want to share an email we received from one Bunny – presumably a Christian – or at least an individual who dislikes Mormonism. I typically don’t read entire emails but rather look to summarize the point but all things considered I think Bunny’s email ought to be heard in total. It has pushed me to drop the F bomb more than any email I have gotten in the past five years.

(Read Bunny’s Email here):

Hello Shawn:

Merry Christmas!

In July 2013, on your show you stated that you were repenting for having gotten off track and spent 7 months attacking evangelical Christianity. You stated it was “time to change” and that you needed to get back to the “heart of the matter” by declaring you would “keep rooted and grounded in … focusing on a Church that was not … [God’s,] namely, Mormonism.”

“Ultimately, it appears that all that happened at that time was that you paused, re-trenched, and went after the evangelicals anew.”

In the past year and a half, your tactics have become more extreme, strident, loud and zealous with every passing week. I think the dramatic climax happened early this year with “Silence,” followed by “Inquisition.” Shawn, personally I am very melodramatic myself but that moment was utterly self-absorbed and beyond the pale. It had the atmosphere of a modern-day martyrdom and was not at all humble. Since then, you have doubled-down and spent the past 9 months completely marginalizing yourself and your ministry.

Despite having declared you repented and refocused on your stated mission from God, you have instead changed the mission of HOTM “from where Mormonism meets Biblical Christianity face to face” to “where religion meets Jesus Christ, face to face;” whatever that means.

As of today, you’ve spent 6 hours discounting the traditionally-held Christian idea that Hell is an eternal punishment. Seriously, 6 hours? Do you honestly think the average viewer of your show is interested enough in your interpretation of the damned’s tenure in Hell to watch even one full hour of your explanation of its meaning, much less 6 hours?

“Personally, (she says) I think it’s ludicrous to think hellfire would be eternal but even my unconventional view doesn’t interest me enough to compel me to listen to your scripture-supported rationale."

This is just an example of the rants you’ve gone on for months on end. Thirteen hours on “has Jesus returned?” Five hours on soteriology? The only soteriology this atheist wants to hear about is Mormon soteriology.

You are no longer producing a show that is interesting to any significant audience. Is this about following your God-directed mission or providing a soapbox for you to stand upon and rant incessantly? No one is hearing you, Shawn. In a word, Shawn, your show has become boring. And sadly, I no longer watch it. I used to be really entertained by you as you railed against the Mormons. But now you just ignore the disaster that is the Mormon cult and instead spend all your time harping about the differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism that don’t matter to most Christians and are lost on all Mormons.

How do you ever expect to convert me and my ilk, much less draw Mormons away from their cult, if you are literally boring us away?

Have you forgotten how damaging that cult is?

Shawn, I really like you and enjoy your style. But your show has become tedious. And I want to be entertained. I know you know that’s ultimately the reason people watch TV. They want to be entertained.

I know I am stating my message in a very direct way and I know you can handle my candor. I am hopeful you will consider my comments. And then in the most convoluted manner, this atheist ends her rant with:

“Happy, Happy Christmas! I wish you joy and peace the remainder of the holiday season!”

God help us all. (beat)

The Power of Perception in Religious Discourse

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

Let me pause here and comment. There are religious institutions and politicians that go to great lengths to gauge their every word. Why? They want you to trust them. In the introductory pages of BAM I include a statement by Walt Whitman that says, The Words Nothing the Gist everything. I have no fear on stepping on my own… nose or contradicting myself or changing directions at the drop of a dime because I am not out to get people to trust me. I am not trustable. Neither are you. Only Jesus is. And this is my message and always has been. Got it?

But all with the goal being to help the LDS who are coming out of Mormonism to know what to look for in the churches they examine. The next paragraph is really interesting to me—listen: This line reinforces for me the notion of how powerful perceptions are. This is a Christian woman who believes—compared to how I was on previous shows towards the LDS—that I am now MORE extreme, strident, loud, and zealous than ever before. Those who want to hear what I have to say claim the exact opposite and suggest I am now more calm than ever before. Hmmmm. But Bunny does give examples:

I have marginalized myself from the beginning Bunny. And I will marginalize myself again. How? By refusing to play along with games and structures and expectations but to probe and question and investigate everything. You don’t know what that means Bunny? It’s what happened when Jesus faced the Pharisees of His day, Bunny. They—representing ultimate religion—face Jesus—ultimate relationship with God—face to face.

Evaluating Personal Beliefs

It is here that Bunny really struck a chord with me—and strikes the same chord repeatedly as she speaks. Aha. And so we discover the mindset. She personally believes eternal hellfire is a fail… and that is all that matters—what Bunny thinks. Her decision has been made don’t muddle the conversation with facts proving or disproving. Just spout what we all individually think—then shut the heck up and entertain me!

“We’ll I think, we’ll I think…” this is WHY I spend as much time as I do on matters—to show that what we THINK is irrelevant to what is written! This has been our approach since I first set foot on a stage. Where Mormonism meets BIBLICAL Christianity face to face, NOT where Mormonism meets what I THINK. (she continues)

Ahhhhh, now I get it. “This atheist” who opens with Merry Christmas. Now we get the idiocy. We have an almighty ATHEIST who, thinking she has determined all truth through her pea-brain, doesn’t want anything that proves alternative positions from the Bible to HELP in the Mormon Christian debate—she just wants fodder—cannon fodder—to launch at the LDS. To entertain her—because that is what matters, Bunny needs to be entertained because if she’s not Bunny might have to think and look at herself. (She continues)

Upholding Truth Over Popularity

Now an appeal to numbers—don’t you get it—we do NOT act and speak to be successful and to reach significant audiences—we do what we do to teach truth COME HELL OR HIGHWATER. Listen, if you “and your ilk” haven’t been drawn away by EVERYTHING we have presented thus far bunny you will never be drawn away.

We have four-hundred plus programs that clearly articulate the damage caused by Mormonism. But to me preaching a gospel where God wants to damn most of the world to hell or one that keeps people on edge waiting for Jesus to come when He already has is just as damaging.

For the most part, I am going to wrap this all up by just throwing in all the thoughts and strange observances that I think support the idea that God desires to redeem all people to himself in one way or another over the PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

God's Reconciliation and Eternal Punishment

The idea that either God desires this but can’t make it happen OR that God doesn’t desire this and won't make it happen. In other words, I am going to toss out a number of random ideas that I think support God’s total reconciliation of all people over the traditional Christian teaching that endorses eternal punishment.

For example, I think it’s note-worthy that in describing God’s wrath, the Bible uses an item of limited scope and size rather than an endless flowing amount. Have you ever wondered why scripture describes the container that holds God’s wrath as being…a cup? Not a never-ending river of wrath or a bombardment of constant wrath, but a cup of wrath. Have you ever wondered about this?

Jesus, referring to the certainty of after-life punishment, also used descriptions of limited duration when speaking of what individuals would experience. Remember when He talked about some being beaten with “a few stripes,” and others with more?” To me, once “the few stripes” (or even once more) have been delivered, wouldn’t they end… or are the few stripes delivered over and over and over again? I mean, how does a person receive a few stripes for an eternity anyway?

What about when Jesus spoke of not coming out of prison until the person has “paid the uttermost farthing”? Again, once the farthing has been paid to the uttermost wouldn’t the payment have been made… and the person comes out?

Admittedly, these teachings can be viewed in various ways – and they are not the best proofs for total reconciliation. But they do add to the overall picture in my estimation and instead of just reading over them, why not try and incorporate all of them into the mix?

The Question of Sufficient Punishment

Then there is always the question of when is enough torment… enough? We know from our study last week that the lake of Fire torments occur in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels, right? So let’s suppose that there is a man who lived a fairly respectful life, but he was not open to the saving message of the Lord.

Additionally, let’s say he was guilty of the average number of typical sins an average male commits over the course of his life – he stole some things as a kid, had sex with some girls as a teen, had lustful thoughts at times, was a bit judgmental and the like. Granted, he is without excuse. I get this and the judgment is biblical. Also, the man did reject the Holy Spirit calling him to have faith in God’s only begotten Son – a crime worth an inestimable time of reform. I get this too. No denying it. The value of the work of God’s Son cannot be legitimized.

But the question I have is how much time is enough time for the crimes committed?

Misconceptions About God and Time

Now, I understand fairly well the Christian arguments that God is outside of time. We speak of this often. The discussion is far too long to articulate here, but what most Christians don’t realize is this is the philosophy of Man and is not biblical. God IS. Scripture is replete with examples that He cares and is involved in time.

Where did the idea that God is outside of time come from? Plato. And Augustine admits that he incorporated Greek thought into his explanation of Christianity. Think about this. Christians recite ideas like:

"God is outside of time."
God is timeless
God exists in an eternal now
God was never was nor never will be
God has no past
God has no future.

Guess what? None of this is biblical but ALL of it was proposed by Plato! That is a whole other discussion.

Back to our unchristian man. Would constant suffering of 100 years (where he is repenting and calling out to God to forgive Him, for Jesus to save him) would that be enough for God to let the man out of the lake of fire? How about a thousand years of miserable grinding and misery in the refining, burning light? Would that be enough?

How about a billion light years? Is that enough? Would God then say, okay, “I receive your bowing knees and your tongue confessing and your repentant heart? After a billion years, is it possible that a loving God could or would ever say to this repentant man, “Enter into

Eternity of Rest vs. Eternal Punishment

My presence for an eternity of rest. No, you are not a son, but I do forgive you?”

No? Their suffering has to be forever!

Take your worst enemy. A man who ruthlessly rapes and tortures and kills your entire family. How long would you allow him to suffer for his crimes against you? I know the knee jerk reactions. I get the emotional response. But imagine that you are in charge and you can tune in and hear his screaming and pleas for forgiveness anytime you’d like over the course of time? Then imagine you have the ability to truly read his heart – and you not only know when he is really repentant from the heart but you also understand the mindset and history in his life that brought him to the point where he became a beast.

Would a week of torture be enough for you? A year? Ten years? A hundred years? Let’s me point something out to you. If you relished in his torture beyond the point of what was just and beneficial to him and his growth you would wind up being more of a monster than he ever was because you would be submitting him to torture too! Ever think of this? Would a trillion years of suffering be enough for you?

Jesus' Sacrifice and Equitable Suffering

Along these lines, if a sin cannot ever be paid for why was Jesus suffering on the cross for all the sins of the world only for such a relatively short period of time? Could it be that from the hand of a merciful God fair and equitable suffering is very very short instead of eternities long?

What’s interesting is that when I have had such conversations with really good Christian people, most of them adamantly respond to this thinking by shouting, “No! The punishment must be eternal.” I am always left wondering what drives such opinions or moves them to think this way. If I didn’t know better I might be tempted to think these people actually want to see everyone who doesn’t think and believe and act like they do suffering eternally. But that couldn’t be true . . . could it?

If we try and step away from all the emotional and personal issues tied to the subject wouldn’t “a just God assign an appropriate just punishment to the appropriate crime?” Wouldn’t He deliver appropriate amounts of discipline until every knee bows and every tongue confesses willingly and from the heart, and then wouldn’t such a long-suffering God receive all who have been reformed by the process He knew would break the most rebellious of souls?

Viewing Non-Believers Through a Redemptive Lens

This brings us to another point for consideration. In light of all we have talked about maybe we ought to start rethinking how we view people who are not believers . . yet. Presently, Christians tend to see the non-believing world as “the sinful headed for an eternity in hell,” right? Maybe it would be a better move for Christians to start seeing all people as the “yet to be redeemed?” As “the unfortunate lost” who have yet to confess His name?

Here’s the thinking: since Jesus paid for all the sins of the world (past, present and future) some two thousand years ago the issue isn’t whether someone is a sinner or not (sin has been taken care of by Him) the issue is whether they have come to receive Him as the solution or not. Nothing more than this, really. Seeing the redemptive work of our King in this manner enables those of us fortunate enough to have recognized the King (as the only solution) to now see those who have yet to believe as lost and unfortunate rather than evil and needing to be judged.

This is an important distinction because when we as believers start looking at the world as “the sinful” and ourselves as “the worthy” it is easy to forget that our righteousness has come by faith in the shed blood of the King and nothing more. And when we as believers are able to see the rest of the world as failing in faith and therefore lost due to the same blindness we used to have it enables us to retain a modicum of humility and gratitude for Him who redeemed us rather than looking down our noses at those who have yet come . . . to hear and see.

Seeing People as Potential Candidates for Heaven

Can see people as potential candidates for heaven by virtue of the finished work of Christ wouldn’t this attitude go a long way in helping us first love them, and then relate to them, and then reach them with the Good News? And wouldn’t this love motivate us (even more) to kindly and reasonably warn them of what awaits for those who die without knowing the true and living God?

I like the term lost because we know from scripture that a Good Shepherd would never abandon the search (and safe return) of those that are lost. In Luke 15:4 Jesus said:

Insights from Scripture

4 “What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”

I would strongly suggest that this parable is not only speaking to the House of Israel and them being the lost sheep and/or the church and those who backslide but also to the whole of humankind. Why wouldn’t it? If He paid for all their sin why wouldn’t He care for the whereabouts of all He has so loved?

Maybe at this point another word study will convince you.

There are several English words (used in the King James) that have especially been ascribed to the wicked of this world. They include the “lost,” those who “perish,” and those who will be “destroyed.”

The Greek Perspective

For example in Luke 13:3 Jesus says (KJV) “. . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise “perish.” Most Christians read destroyed here and suggest the word means in the afterlife fires of hell (or the Lake of Fire) people will be destroyed (and if they are really out for blood they will add, “but never consumed.”) Is this what Jesus meant?

Paul wrote in 2nd Corinthians 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost…” Do you think this means lost forever? Again, most people would suggest that lost means lost forever – unless they receive the word here in this life.

And then in James 4:12 we read: ”There is one lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy.” Of course the modern Christian mindset would take this English word and think it means “wiped out in hell or the Lake of Fire completely, right?” The words certainly sound permanent, don’t they – lost, perished and destroyed? And so Pastors and teachers (when they come upon passages that use these terms lost, perish and destroyed) teach that they refer to permanent afterlife punishment and that it is forever and cannot be reversed.

But did you know that all of these English words I just gave examples of – lost, perish, and destroy – all come from the same Greek word, apollumi. (apoolomee) Sometimes the translators would translate apoolomee to lost, sometimes to perish, sometimes to destroyed.”

Like aion, some translators have assigned meaning to this single Greek term that is not consistently applied (or frankly correct). For example in my Powerbible software it suggests that apololamee means to “obliterate” which is to wipe out completely instead of decimate, which is to ruin in decrees. But obliterate is not the true meaning of the word apoolamahee. Suffer ruin or loss? Yes! Certainly but “total loss or destruction?” No way.

We see this proven through other passages of scripture. For example in the parable of the Lost Sheep that Jesus tells, the Greek word for the lost sheep is “apoloomai.” Was the sheep lost forever in this story? No. Just temporarily. In the story of the Prodigal Son the word is “apollomai,” too and in Luke 19:10, where Jesus says: “For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost,” the word is the same and it obviously doesn’t mean the Son of Man can to seek and save those who are totally destroyed or obliterated, does it?

The Concept of Reconciliation in Christian Theology

While sheep, and prodigals, and people can certainly be lost, they can perish, they can even be destroyed, it does not mean such losses are total nor does it mean they will never be found.

Don’t these word studies reveal the living loving God we worship as Christians? One who is both just and loving, who uses discipline and long-suffering, who freely allows all men and women an ability to choose light or dark but will, in the end, overcome all things by His foreknowledge – including the second death. Compare this description of God and his plan with that of the five point Calvinist, the Arminianist, the Universalist, or the Latter-day Saint.

God's Punishments

Through this contextual view of the Bible message we discover a God whose punishments have purpose, who is not inferior to the will and ways of Man or Satan but is victorious, whose love truly never fails but who simultaneously does use the free will of Man in His overall and utter victory. This is a God who is truly worthy of all honor, all glory, all allegiance, and every whit of our trust and adoration!

One more point and we’ll wrap this seven part series – and the year. I want to close this short treatise up by citing some comments on the subject from people who are somewhat respected in Christian circles. I’m not doing this to bolter my argument with popular opinion or to appeal to the wisdom of Man. I simply want to show that these thoughts I have brought to the table have been around for some time. Take them for what they are worth.

Historical Perspectives

To prove that the idea of reconciliation has been around for quite a while let’s first look to Augustine (in 354 -430 AD) and his attitude toward those who suggested it. See, it was Augustine who was one of the first to truly popularize the teaching of eternal punishment in flames of fire. Proving that the teaching of reconciliation was still around in the church when Augustine was alive let me quote Augustine's attitude toward it when he said:

“And now I see I must have a gentle disputation with “certain tender hearts” of our own religion, who are unwilling to believe that everlasting punishment will be inflicted, either on all those whom the just Judge shall condemn to the pains of hell or even on some of them.”

If you didn’t catch it, Augustine gives us right here an example of believe like me or you too will be condemned to the pains of hell. Augustine aside, the earliest church fathers tended to believe that the torments were purposeful, and aimed at purging and cleansing rather than cruelty and suffering for suffering's sake. These thoughts all fell under what was known as “the restitution of all things” (which, interestingly enough, Paul refers to frequently but never mentions hell). It wasn’t until 533 AD that an official attempt was made to rid the world of the “restitution of all things” idea. By this time, most of the men who dominated Christianity couldn’t even read Greek and so crushing “the restitution of all things” idea was not too difficult.

Listen up:

Irenaeus (130-200AD), who wrote intimately of Polycarp (who was a close friend of the Apostle John) reveals through his writings an intimate belief in “an ultimate reconciliation of all things back to God.” This is not new to me, critics.

Clement of Alexandria (185AD – 254) wrote:

“The Lord is a propitiation not for our sins only, that is, of the faithful, but also for the whole world. Therefore He indeed saves all universally; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining honor and dignity, that “to Him every knee will bow, of things in heaven, of things in earth, and things under the earth, that is to say angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world.”

ORIGEN (185-254AD) wrote:

“He that despises the purification of the Word of God, the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for dreadful and penal purifications afterwards; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor gospel preaching has cleansed, according to that which is written of being “purified by fire.” But how long this purification which is wrought out by penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods or ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows to whom all.

The Nature of Faith and Eternal Life

Judgment is committed by the Father.

I could write on and on, adding a dozen or more to the list, but let me conclude this whole thing with the words of Martin Luther, that if uttered today, would certainly cause many to scream heresy.

This is what “the Father of the Reformation” said in a letter written in 1522:

“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy, there may be opportunity to win it in the future.”

When Jesus said in John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted above the earth, will draw all men unto me,” He meant EXACTLY what He said, and in the end, all will come to Him—some as His joint heirs, some having gone through hell only to discover their names written in the lamb's book of life, some purged of “self” in the lake of fire—but in the end, all in all, just as God intended from before all things.

Questions About Eonian Concepts

Let’s open up the phone lines:

Announce the station or no?

Hi Shawn, I've just watched your hotm show on the internet and was left wondering the following: If, like you say, the Greek word aionios means age-related, age-during, age-abiding, in other words, a limited period of time, one with a beginning and an end, although that end may not be in the horizon yet, then how would you biblically explain the following verses:

a) Matthew 25:46 which speaks of eonian punishment for the reprobate and of eonian life for the righteous? The very same Greek word (aionios; 166 – Strong's numbering system) is used to describe both punishment and salvation? If, like you stated, the punishment is age-related, thus limited in time, then what about eonian life for the righteous? What's the nature of the eonian life for the righteous? If, as it would logically flow from your position, the eonian punishment is limited in time, so has to be the eonian life, or not? But if the eonian life is also limited in time, like the eonian punishment, then we can't talk about eternal life anymore. Then what kind of life is awaiting the righteous?

b) Romans 16:26, in almost all Bible versions I know, talks about the eternal (same Greek word: aionios) God. If that Greek word really and only means age-related, age-abiding, age-during, then how does this apply to the ever-living, without beginning nor end, God of the Bible, who is the Eternal?

c) What's your biblical understanding of Marc 9:45-47 in the above context? Thanks for your time. Looking forward to reading your reply.

Blessings, Tiago Carvalho, France

Testimony and Scriptural Inquiry

From: Marco J. Rossi

I was dating an LDS woman. Thought she was great…went to church with her. But after a year or more…seen how they controlled her and tried to control me. I always felt something was going on with her and the men there. They always wanted to have a meeting with her alone. She just won't see how wrong the LDS Church is. We broke up when they tried to send me to a different ward. The church is a fake, and so are the people. Thank you for helping me see the light. God bless you and what you do.

Hey Shawn, Please I want to see your opinion of this passage: Romans 9:13-23 KJV

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known…

The Riches of His Glory

the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Wow!!! When I saw this verse for the first time I struggled and I didn't want to believe it. I seriously said why would God find fault with me??? But then Paul said:

3: Hath not the potter have the right over the clay?

We as believers are the temple of God. Who is going to set on the thrown? Jesus Christ or…the son of perdition, the beast, the false prophet…man's "free" will? God is the Savior of ALL. I respect what your doing so much bro. Love to hear your thoughts on this passage. I just can't see how someone can read this and not say: God is control!

God's Peace,
Jordan from Oceanside CA

On Leaving Church

Received an outstanding article from D. Johnson where he forwarded a blog called Culture Watch by BILL MUELLENBERG. Thank you DJ and Brother Mullenberg.

Why Are People Leaving Church?

On Leaving Church

There are many Christians who have stopped going to church. They have not given up on God, have not renounced their faith, have not denied Christ, and have not become pagans. They simply are no longer going to church. That this is happening is not a matter of doubt, but why this is happening is in fact a difficult question to answer. One recent article spoke about this trend. Entitled “The Rise of the ‘Done With Church’ Population,” it looks at this scene—primarily in America—but does not offer us any clear indications as to why this is becoming such a problem. The article begins:

John is every pastor’s dream member. He’s a life-long believer, well-studied in the Bible, gives generously and leads others passionately. But last year he dropped out of church. He didn’t switch to the other church down the road. He dropped out completely. His departure wasn’t the result of an ugly encounter with a staff person or another member. It wasn’t triggered by any single event. John had come to a long-considered, thoughtful decision. He said, “I’m just done. I’m done with church.”

John is one in a growing multitude of ex-members. They’re sometimes called the de-churched. They have not abandoned their faith. They have not joined the also-growing legion of those with no religious affiliation—often called the Nones. Rather, John has joined the Dones.

At Group’s recent Future of the Church conference, sociologist Josh Packard shared some of his groundbreaking research on the Dones. He explained these de-churched were among the most dedicated and active people in their congregations. To an increasing degree, the church is losing its best.

For the church, this phenomenon sets up a growing danger. The very people on whom a church relies for lay leadership, service and financial support are going away. And the problem is compounded by the fact that younger people in the next generation, the Millennials, are not lining up to refill the emptying pews.

Why are the Dones done? Packard describes several factors in his upcoming book Church Refugees (Group). Among the reasons: After sitting through countless sermons and Bible studies, they feel they’ve heard it all. One of Packard’s interviewees said, “I’m tired of being lectured to. I’m just done with having some guy tell me what to do.”

The Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay. They want to play. They want to participate. But they feel spurned at every turn. Will the Dones return? Not likely, according to the research. They’re done. Packard says it would be more fruitful if churches would focus on not losing these people in the first place. Preventing an exodus is far easier than attempting to convince refugees to return.

Hmmm, interesting. There would be many reasons why people stop going to church. We all might have our suggestions as to why this is occurring. I have my own ideas. Let me list a few such possibilities here:

-Many believers are growing tired of the celebrity culture in our churches.
-Many believers are fed up with the incessant entertainment and worldly amusements found in the churches.
-Many believers are not being fed from the Word of God.
-Many believers are put off by the attempt to cater solely to youth, while ignoring their needs.
-Many believers are tired of just being bench warmers, with no role to play.
-Many believers are weary of the constant need to be “relevant” at the expense of biblical orthodoxy.
-Many believers are looking for the real deal. They want an encounter with almighty God, not just a razzmatazz stage production.
-Many believers are desiring genuine Holy Ghost revival, not just pep talks, self-help seminars, and a me-centred approach.

The State of Modern Christianity

Many believers are starving for the reality of First Century Christianity. Many more reasons could be mentioned. And this is just my take on things. Having spoken at so many churches and home groups and small fellowships over the years, I can get a bit of an understanding of some of these trends. And many of these believers who have left the church have not forsaken Christian fellowship though.

Mindful of texts like Hebrews 10:25 of “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,” they still meet with others. But often it is just a very small home group. Often it is just a small band of believers who meet in a small community centre. They are still eager for God, but have been turned off by so much of the church scene today. Many are repulsed by the celebrity and entertainment culture that runs rampant in so many churches today. They just want to worship Jesus and encourage one another without all the worldly rigmarole.

Small Fellowship Groups

I have spoken in many of these small fellowship groups. Some of their services can easily last 3, 4, 5 or more hours. They can’t get enough of genuine Christianity and heartfelt worship. But they have gotten enough of churchianity. They are fed up with a church that increasingly resembles the world more than it does the New Testament. While this move away from the churches may be a way these believers find a new outlet for Christian fellowship, it is obviously tough on pastors and church leaders. One thing they may have to do is slow down, think, pray and ask some hard questions.

But the problem is, so often our leaders are so busy doing church, that they do not have this needed time to reassess, rethink, and re-evaluate. I once wrote a piece in which I made the serious suggestion that some churches might be best placed to actually shut down for a brief spell as the members, and especially the leaders, spend some quality time on their faces before God. I said in part:

A Radical Proposal

My recommendation is this: it may well be the best thing in many cases to simply shut our church doors and post a big sign on each entry with words something like this: “Dear friends, sorry but our church is now closed for repairs. It will be closed for perhaps a few days, perhaps a few weeks, and maybe even longer, until a full and thorough renovation has taken place. These doors will remain shut for as long as it takes. We will notify you when the doors will reopen. In fact, there will be no need to notify you, because it will be apparent to everyone when the renewal work is completed. Thank you for your patience.” billmuehlenberg.com/2011/11/26/is-it-time-to-close-our-churches/

Does that sound like a pretty radical proposal? Of course it does. But it may take something radical like this to deal with a church which seems to be losing its way, and is in many ways haemorrhaging to death. When things get that bad, radical surgery is indeed required. I do not envy being a pastor or a church leader. They have a very tough job, and their work is often thankless, painful and exhausting. We certainly must pray for our leaders. They certainly need it. And they need regular encouragement as well. But the church is going through tough times now. I certainly do not have all the answers for this. But we must be willing to at least pause and reflect, pray and seek God, as to how we might turn things around. We must at least begin there.

Let me finish with a few great quotes from a few great saints. Their words of warning and advice make for more helpful starting points:

“If the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from the church today, 95 percent of what we do would go on and no one would know the difference. If the Holy Spirit had been withdrawn from the New Testament church, 95 percent of what they did would stop, and everybody would know the difference.” A.W. Tozer

“Oh for radically Bible-saturated, God-centered, Christ-exalting, self-sacrificing, mission-mobilizing, soul-saving, culture-confronting pastors!” John Piper

“When the church is absolutely different from the world, she invariably attracts it. It is then that the world is made to listen to her message, though it may hate it at first.” Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“The church has lost her testimony. She has no longer anything to say to the world. Her once robust shout of assurance has faded away to an apologetic whisper. She who one time went out to declare

Understanding Different Perspectives on Faith

now goes out to inquire. Her dogmatic declaration has become a respectful suggestion, a word of religious advice, given with the understanding that it is after all only an opinion and not meant to sound bigoted.” A.W. Tozer “The Church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men. The Holy Ghost does not flow through methods, but through men. He does not come on machinery, but on men. He does not anoint plans, but men… Men of prayer.” E. M. Bounds www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/177144-thom-schultz-rise-of-the-done-with-church-population.html [1476 words]

Awesome. Well I've got a couple of questions for you. First off let me give you a quick background. My name is Ethan, I was raised lds/flds. So my parents believed that the Mormon religion was true but the modern day church had gone away from a lot of its original beliefs. They were never practiced polygamy but did believe in it. And we didn't have to were long sleeves or anything "warren Jeff" like haha. Pretty normal growing up.

But once I turned 18 I started do my own research and came to the conclusion the the entire Mormon religion is basically a bunch of crap. Anyway, I'm 23 now and since then 4 of my siblings that went away from my parents beliefs and got baptized in the lds church and 2 that believed what my parents taught have now left the church and found new light in Jesus and the bible. So here are my questions.

Queries About Faith and Practices

1. I'm not the best reader, I love doing research and digging into things but I find it hard to sit down and read the bible. Is there anything that could maybe make that easier.

2. What bible do you prefer. I know there is the one that ole brother joe translated but I'm not sure. Which one is the best for reading and researching.

3. Can you tell me about the priesthood? Is it still here on earth or no.

4. Do we need to be baptized? If yes, by the priesthood or how would you go about that.

5. What does the bible say about drinking. I drink a couple beers while watching football. And once in a while go out with my wife and have a drink. Does the bible say not to drink?

6. Where can I find some good books that won't break the bank, that explain Mormonism and Christianity and how Mormonism go completely against the bible in a lot of ways.

7. Last, at least for this time. I'm sure I'll have more question. And sorry to take up your time. But do you preach or teach somewhere that my wife and I can come listen?

Thanks for all your time Shawn. I really enjoy watching your show and your doing a good thing. I've never felt better without the church on my back.

Sincerely, Ethan Barlow

Addressing Personal Beliefs and Inquiry

1. I am a gay man and am married to a wonderful man. Are we going to hell? Does Jesus love us?

2. You realize thus significantly on the subject of this subject, produced me personally believe it from numerous numerous angles. Its like women and men are not involved unless it's something to do with Lady Gaga! Your personal stuffs great. At all times care for it up!

(good luck with this one)