Eternal Punishment and Salvation

“The pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive the wicked: the flames do now rage and glow. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked…He will trample them beneath His feet with inexpressible fierceness; He will crush their blood out, and will make it fly, so that it will sprinkle His garment and stain all His raiment.”
Works, vii. 499. Jonathan Edwards

“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.”
—Thomas Paine

Institutionalized Religion Meets Jesus Christ

Show 48 423 Eternal Punishment Part III
December 2 2014

“Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, Salt Lake City, Utah this is HEART OF THE MATTER where . . . Institutionalized Religion Meets Jesus Christ Face to Face. And I’m your host, Shawn McCraney

Winter Special Announcements

Got all dat?

Alright, we got an email last week from someone saying I have been pandering for money and this is yet another evidence that I have lost my way. Okay, first of all – if you can’t tell I hate doing commercials for our products. I’d as soon give everything away but they do cost us money to produce so if people are able to pay for them great. If not you can have them for free.

Secondly, our ministry position has always been to let people know there is a need but to simultaneously remind them that there is ZERO compulsion. In fact, we reject anyone who wants to support us who is on limited fixed income or is elderly or cannot make ends meet. We’ve always said this. If I am coming off as pandering I apologize. I am quite sensitive to this area and want to be clearly understood on our long-running policy toward financial support. Okay? Good.

Once again we have a lot to present on eternal punishment so let’s have a prayers and get right to it.

Prayer

Based on the Bible, the world (meaning every individual who has or ever will live on it) can be divided cleanly into two camps – those who are “saved” (from what scripture calls the “second death,”) and those who are not. We’re not going to address all the nuances of salvation here including the growth and personal sanctification of individual believers and what this will mean to them after this life but more specifically we are going to talk about these two giant general groups – those who are saved from the second death and those who are not.

Take note that in John 8:51 Jesus plainly says:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

We know He was NOT speaking of physical death because all of us – believer and not – will die physically. So Jesus was talking about the second death – which occurs after this life and happens in a very specific location called the Lake of Fire.

Understanding Salvation

When Christians speak “of being saved” I would suggest that this means FROM this death, or as Jesus says, “because we have kept His saying we will never see death.”

Just last week I got an email from a bloke who has already taken our teachings on eternal punishment and lumped it under the title of “all people being saved.” LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN! (are you listening?)

I am in no way shape or form suggesting or teaching that all people are saved. This is not at all what I have said and total reconciliation does not convey this teaching. I ardently maintain that there is a hell and a lake of fire where those who die without believing will go.

They are NOT saved FROM these places like Christians are by His grace through faith.

The Fate of the Unbelieving

So . . . for simplicities sake, it appears that every individual who has ever walked this earth (or will walk this earth) when they die (physically) they will either go to heaven and enter into life eternal, or they will go to hell . . . and wait in torments over their refusal to appropriately receive God’s grace offered them by the shed blood of His Son.

We will talk about this hell in a minute.

For now, let’s ask ourselves a recurring question:

Did God know, before He ever created anything or anyone of us, who would die and go to heaven and who would die and go

God's Foreknowledge and Human Choice

to hell?

Of course He did!

Perhaps more to the point we might ask:

Then why on earth did God create all of us knowing full well, before one material item ever appeared, that most of His creations would reject His solution (named Jesus Christ) and instead enter into this miserable place we call hell? And how are we to reconcile His foreknowledge of all these outcomes with the fact that scripture calls Him not just love but the highest form of love?

How do we reconcile these biblical facts with passages that say Jesus will “draw all” to Him and that other passages say it is God’s will that “ALL would be saved?”

Heaven and Its Inhabitants

So let’s take our two major groups and discuss them, beginning with those who go to heaven at physical death. Again, from scripture, it appears that God, amidst everything that could come in the mix, desires a people who seeks, and loves, and wants to know Him – (and contrary to some strange man-made views that say otherwise) God wants all to choose Him freely.

Since God knew who would choose Him before creating them did He create them to choose Him? And create everyone else to reject Him?

All things considered – taking characteristics like freedom, justice, goodness, and love into account any reasonable thinking person would have to say, “No. God did NOT create a few to accept Him and the majority to burn. But He knew, from the start and from the heart, who would desire Him . . . and who wouldn’t.

Of those who truly desire Him, who truly seek Him and His will from the heart (failing or not in their flesh), He gathers into heaven, and they are saved from the “second death.”

Benefits of Being Among God's Elect

What are the benefits of belonging to such a group. We get an insight but looking at how scripture refers to these saved ones, calling them:

“The elect,” “the chosen ones,” “the adopted,” “God’s people,” “Son’s of God” (which includes daughters) “Light” and “Son’s of Light,” “Heirs of God,” “Children” and “Children of God,” “Joint-heirs with Christ,” “Israel,” “The Righteous,” (which comes by faith just so you don’t get confused) “The ransomed of the Lord,” “the Salt,” “God’s sheep,” “Trees of Righteousness,” “Vessels of Honor” “Vessels of Mercy” . . . and I’m sure there are many, many more.

We are NOT talking about “said” Christians or people who attend church and “play Christian” every week but those who are truly His from the heart and from the hands. Those who love as Jesus loved.

When such believers die they go to heaven and escape both hell and the second death which may follow. They have been “saved.” Not only do such escape afterlife woe (and loss) but the very titles that scripture assigns to them reveal a great deal about the benefits and blessings God gives them here AND what He has in store for them in the hereafter.

Such things include:

• Inner peace in this life by having the presence of Him with them here.
• The hope and expectation of all the biblically based promises that await them which defy imagination.
• The fact that they know they are God’s children, sons and daughters, the seed of Abraham, children of Light (who will be equipped to dwell in the light).
• The fact that they will enter heaven as joint heirs with Christ Jesus.

Is there a price for such blessings?

The Cost of Becoming Joint-Heirs

Absolutely. Scripture calls the price “death” . . . death to the self (out of love for God and Man) which is only made possible by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ.

I would be selling all readers short if I did not include the words Jesus used to describe those who are His.

He said plainly, “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, and few be there that find it.”

We cannot forget that those who do find it, by genuine humility, and faith, and love, are not only God’s children, His Son’s and Daughters, but they are joint-heirs with His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ if they suffer with Him.

In today’s evangelical world there is an almost ubiquitous attitude floating about that suggests the idea that everyone becomes a Son or Daughter the moment they believe.

Scripture suggests there is a processional walk awaiting those who believe.

John plainly tells us this:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the

The Concept of Being Sons and Daughters of God

“Sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood (meaning nationality or race), nor of the will of the flesh (not through moral perfection and the will), nor of the will of man (not by religion or philosophy), but of God.”

The Afterlife and Salvation

Listen very carefully – especially in light of all I am about to teach – I would strongly suggest that anyone who physically dies without being a Son or Daughter will never be or become a Son or Daughter of God. Is it possible that this will be one of the great miseries of the afterlife for those who reject God? I would say so.

Can someone die and go directly to heaven (as a Son or daughter) without knowing “the name Jesus” or the facts about the Good news? That is up to God. Only He knows the hearts of the departed. But what WE CAN say (please hear me) We can say that whomever dies and goes to heaven goes because of Christ and His finished work and would be considered, according to scripture as one – “of The elect,” “of the chosen ones,” “of the adopted,” “of God’s people,” . . . “as Son’s and Daughters of God,” “as Light” and “children of Light,” “as Heirs of God,” “as Children,” “Children of God,” and “as Joint-heirs with Christ.”

The Journey After Life

Add in the fact that a journey after this life in “the other direction” is the single most horrific remorseful experiences imaginable and we have great motivation to not only be part of those headed to heaven but to share Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life with all who will hear. I hope that I have made a sound case for the benefit of seeking God in spirit and truth in this life, in allowing, through faith and love, for the “self” to perish, and for the hope that lies ahead for those who keep their eyes on Christ, the author and finisher of the faith. Do not allow yourself, because of what I am about to address, to ever believe that God’s means of reconciling all to Him suggests that being a Christian now is not the goal – it is.

Two Groups of People

All other facets of God’s plan are for those who are NOT His – and whom He knew would NOT be His. This cannot ever be forgotten. Now then . . . what about the other group? I’ve divided the world of individuals into two groups – one headed to heaven and one headed to hell.

In light of scripture like John 12:32 where Jesus says He will draw all men to Himself what can we say about this other group? Traditionally speaking, Christianity in general has maintained that believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to hell and that is that – the destinations are permanent. Forever and ever and ever.

A baby that dies (and there have been billions, I would guess) – burning hell – forever. A non-Christian twelve-year-old who was reading a book in a tree and fell off and died? Burning hell forever and ever and ever. An Ethiopian man, or better yet a man from Panguitch Utah, who, burned by religion in his life chooses to try and live honorably, raise a family, work his job and avoid all forms of religion? Burning insufferable hell forever and ever and ever.

All by the hand of God who knew what their choices would be before creating them, and who we call love. I used to accept these situations and the responses to them without reservation and, if I discover in the future (by scripture in conjunction with God’s Spirit) that I am wrong I will teach the stance again.

But do these ideas make any sense? Again, how does scripture admit that God is “Love,” “All-Knowing,” “All-powerful,” and “desires that all would be saved,” and who sent His Son to save the whole world,” how do we understand the idea that most of the world is not only forever lost from God but will suffer eternally for their apparent choice (or, if Calvinist, for God’s choice) of faithlessness?

We’ve come up with some interesting solutions over the span of Christianity. I suggest we challenge them all but use the Bible to clear the matter up.

1 Corinthians 15:

So let’s begin in first Corinthians 15 where Paul presents

The Subjection of All Things to the Father

Speaking of the resurrection from the dead, he says (beginning at verse 23):

23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Believers) 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (LISTEN) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

We know hell is a reality. We know people go there and we know it is described paradoxically as a place of flame and torment but also a place of darkness.

God's Will for Salvation

But then we also know that passages like 1st Timothy 2:4 says, speaking of God, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Additionally, we also know from scripture that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, and that God does some amazing things to bring as many as possible to saving truths. What amazing things has God done to saved the world?

Let’s begin with carving out a nation – His “elected” Nation called Israel. As a people, they were foreknown by God and were used by Him to bring about certain things relative to His will – bring forth the Law, the scripture, and the Messiah. Not only produce Him, but have Him put to death. He knew this, and He used them to accomplish His purposes.

The Mistake of Exclusivity

Now stay with me. When the Nation of Israel were “the elect and the chosen” they really thought that they were “all that” relative to God, didn’t they? I mean they looked down on sinners and gentiles and “the great unwashed” and really seemed to believe that the sun rose and set on them alone, right? When they learned that the “great unwashed” (the Gentiles) would be accepted of God, they ardently resisted the notion, didn’t they? But contrary to their ideas, the Lord did open the gates to all, didn’t He?

And then from both the House of Israel and the Gentiles Christ has gathered unto Himself a bride (or a church) – and we were elected to do certain things to help bring about God’s ultimate will, right? To share the good news, be “the salt of the earth,” “cities set on a hill,” and to love all as Jesus loved. To what end? To bring about God’s will and ultimate victory.

Is it possible, that just as the Jews thought that they were “all that” to God and no others were allowed in their club, that we, as the body and/or bride of Christ, could be making the same mistake when we look around at others? When we consider the fate of those who are not part of the “first group,” those who do not go to heaven at death?

Is it possible that those who go to the lake of fire, once bowing and confessing, will too, come forth and bring to fruition God’s will that “all men be saved” and that He will be “all in all?”

(beat)

Why does Jesus remain at the right hand of the God until a specific time . . . until all His enemies have been placed under His feet? And who, exactly, are His enemies? And where are they located? Are they in hell? The Lake of Fire? And exactly how does God make them His footstool? Are they tossed into a big pile of souls that will serve as a giant pillow under his feet?

Sarcasm aside, what will this really look like? I mean does it really make sense to you that God is going to send the majority of His creations to burn in hell forever and ever and ever knowing before He created them that this would be their fate?

(Long Beat)

I FULLY embrace the idea that God is sovereign and that His will is done. Scripture supports this idea completely. So

The Intersection of Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

Let's start building a case from scripture with the first premise being God Gets what He wills.

Scriptural Evidence of God's Sovereignty

Psalms 115:3
“But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.”

Proverbs 19:21, which says
“There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.”

Jesus said in Matthew 19:26
“with God all things are possible.”

Ephesians 1:11 puts a sharp end on this point saying – speaking of Jesus it says,
“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

That passage in and of itself seems to support the Calvinistic idea of irresistible grace – that God chooses, we do not, and those who are chosen “are,” and those who are not, “are not.” Let’s consider others:

Revelation 4:11 says
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Daniel 4:35 adds
“And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

Psalms 24:1
“The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.”

The Controversy of Predestination

Proverbs 16:4 says something interesting, something that troubles many:
“The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

And listen to Isaiah 45:5-9
“I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?"

Echoing these sentiments Romans 9:21 says
“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?”

From these passages (and many, many more) we KNOW God does “whatever He pleases” . . . “that His counsels will stand” . . . that “with Him all things are possible” . . . “that we are predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will” . . . and “that He even created all things for His own pleasure” right?

The Notion of Free Will

When we read in Proverbs that “He made all things for Himself, even the wicked,” and that in Isaiah it says “He created evil” and in Romans 9 it says, “He has the power to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor,” what are we to think? It certainly sounds like God is more than just a sovereign God – maybe we could even describe Him as despotic . . . at least that is the way Calvinism tends to present Him.

But then we read other passages which tends to support the notion that God gives choice and is good and would never do anything to harm. Consider James 1:3
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”

Does this speak to free will of man? In the face of a sovereign God does man have free will?

Consider 1st John 1:5 which says:
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

We have long maintained that God’s will is DONE but that His will is NOT that all would be reconciled to Him.

Why?

Why did Calvin create a pretty seamless system of theology that says God is Sovereign and that He will only redeem some? Why? (beat)

I mean if an evil, selfish human parent of five would relentlessly do everything possible to save ALL…

The Scope of God's Love and Sovereignty

Five children from a burning building wouldn’t God, who IS love, and IS victorious, and IS sovereign, and IS all knowing have both the capacity and the ability to reconcile all people to Him in some form or another?

I would suggest so and I want to offer some passages to just begin to support this idea. Many more coming in the next few weeks.

Reflections on Isaiah and Jeremiah

For instance, listen to the tenor of Isaiah 55:8-11 where God says simply:

“For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

We can take these words as saying God is NOT as merciful and loving as man or we can take those words to mean His ways are far more. And then, realizing that God is love and good, how are we to understand Isaiah 45:9-11 where God says:

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Thoughts of Peace

As a God of love from eternity to eternity, what is His pleasure, His will, His purpose? Why isn’t it to, despite the free will of Man and the evil temptations of Satan to still draw all men to Him through His Son?

What does Jeremiah 29:11 mean when God says “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”

What does it mean in the face of all this information when we read in 2nd Peter 3:9 that “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Somehow we have to come to terms with ALL of this information – not just some of it.

More insights and answers next week.

Let’s open up the phone lines – 801

While the black ops are clearing your calls take a look at this:

From the Moors of Ireland

Dear Shawn,

I have been following your ministry for a long time. I find your teaching challenging and I love to test what you say! I have found my beliefs evolving so much so that I don't seem to fit into any church. It seems the more I study and search for truth the further I am from "mainstream" Christianity. I am more comfortable searching and questioning on my own but I do miss having discussions with other Christians as I feel we each have a lot to learn from each other.

The reason for my email is that although I feel like I am a member of your church (in the online sense!) I am wondering does your church have any sort of bible study I could join…online. Do you think there would be any members of the church who would be interested in a virtual bible study, through Skype or Google Hangouts? I am pretty limited in my church options in rural Catholic Ireland. Do you think it is better to go to a church that I feel is teaching incorrect doctrine so I have people to fellowship with or stay on my own and, I guess, sacrifice that part of Christianity?

I will be continuing as I am for now, listening and learning, but I just feel like this would enrich my spiritual walk.

I just want you to know that I am thankful that you do what you do and I know it is all because of Christ but you still have to choose to follow Him so thank you for remaining faithful.

Yours Sincerely,

Claire Ashall.

Brother Shawn,

Greetings brother, just watched the video… sigh. I tell people that the pendulum swings wide both ways into the errors of oneness and trinity. The bottom line is that the mystery is not how three persons are one God, but how one God has incrementally revealed Himself to His creation, angelic and humanity alike. For I am persuaded that just as God was "manifested in the flesh" and men received Him not for who He really was, that He had also manifested Himself in celestial form and the angel's likewise did not fully grasp all that God was.

Understanding the Foundation for Rejecting the Trinity

For had Lucifer known God was much more than what appeared before him on the throne, he would not had foolishly walked by sight and sized up God, thinking He was one that could be overthrown. These things are the foundation for why "God was manifest in the flesh, JUSTIFIED in the Spirit, [and] SEEN of angels."

I just wanted to share my defense to others in rejecting "the trinity."

https://gatesofthecity.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/the-lords-christ-is-christ-the-lord-the-only-one-lord-of-scripture/

Plus, isn't it interesting that in all the Pauline epistles, Paul never mentions the Holy Spirit in his introduction, but only the Father and the Son? Here's a couple more articles, the first by another brother on the question above. The second on popular trinitarian arguments.

https://gatesofthecity.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/whats-in-a-greeting-the-epistles-of-paul/gatesofthecity.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/let-us-elohim-echad-godhead-trinitarian-or-oneness/

I also have a part 1 & 2 on the John 1:1, need to get around to part 3 yet…

Stay “blessable” and be not weary in well doing, William Males

Addressing Concerns and Accountability

Shawn,

I’ve been concerned about where you are going too. And the call revealed your insecurities and exposing a dangerous place you find yourself in. Your body language spoke loudly too. To say you are only accountable to God is also a telling cop out. Also interesting that your appeals for money are growing something you initially disdained in other ministries.

Insights on 1st Timothy 4:10

REGARDING 1st Timothy 4:10 John wrote:

Shawn,

Couldn't Paul also be simply stating that God is Savior of all people in a temporal sense; believers in an eternal sense? Scripture clearly teaches elsewhere that God will not save everyone. Mt 25:41, Mt 25:46, Rev 20:11-15.

“1st Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.”