Bad Eschatology Follow-Up
Got a lot to talk about tonight and want to begin by stoking the fires of what is out there for you all to take advantage of in terms of other ministries we love. Checkmychurch. This site is really well done and a perfect fit for all of the western US and all of the states itself. Even da world. Check it out. Look up your favorite church and submit a request to have it checked if it hasn’t happened yet. Sarah and Joe do great honest work and report with unbiased views. Checkmychurch.org
Then there’s Exmormonfiles.com with Bishop Earl Erskine. Hundreds of really good interviews that Earl has with people who have left Mormonism for a direct relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. And then there is talkingtomormons.com which is another jam-packed website full of tremendous insights and information relative to the LDS church, their teachings, and claims. I love all of these ministries because they focus on leading people to Jesus – the Master, Lord, Savior, and King – and away from RELIGION. So, check them out.
Understanding Eschatological Views
Listen, before we get to the show and the comments, I want to make something clear and admit that I am responsible for creating the confusion in the first place. Ready? I am NOT a preterist. Not a full preterist, not a partial preterist. I realize that I have lazily assigned that title to myself because it captures a great deal about my views. But true full preterists believe and support a whole bunch of things that I do not support and I endorse a whole bunch of things that they would not. Do I believe Jesus came back in 70AD and wrapped all the biblical prophecies up at that time? I do. But the implications of this belief are different for me than they are for full preterists in terms of how to live today, hell and afterlife punishment, heaven, and other subjects.
So – apologies – I have added to the confusion without really thinking about it. I believe in what many people call fulfillment eschatology – as I embrace what I see as the biblical teaching that Jesus has had the complete and total victory over everything in that day. But the interpretation of how this looks today is very different from how my brother and sister full preterists interpret them. Okay? That being said, I do not part ways with preterists or futurists or any other eschatological position. Whatever. But I have views that cannot be categorized into some easy-to-use title.
The Role of Love in Faith
Something else I want to share since we spent last year talking a lot about agape love. And I never realized this verse existed until recently, but it really helps understand another element of it that will help all of you navigate its terrain. In the first chapter of Philippians Paul states that he always prays for the people of Philippi, and then he adds some clarification on the matter saying: 9 And this I pray, “that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment.” That your LOVE (agape here, he prays) MAY abound yet more and MORE IN . . . knowledge and all judgment. Think about that sentence and what it means for LOVE to abound more and more in KNOWLEDGE and IN ALL JUDGMENT.
What a prayer, right? To pray that others would love with the kind of Love God desires and Paul helps us understand, in part, what this looks like, saying: In knowledge and all judgment. So in addition to the desire that they love, the idea seems to be that Paul wanted this love to be defined as “intelligent affectations.” What this seems to mean is they should not “love” base their love on the touchy-feely-emotionally-driven-love we fall into but love backed by reason and intelligence, love that is based on facts and foundations of logic. And not mere or blind affections and emotions. This is so vitally important a principle in the faith. Our love is commended and commanded, but Paul qualifies it as a love that has a brain. I feel badly for the homeless walking down my street in the snow, and those feelings push me to going to Target and buying as many sets of gloves I can.
Agape Love in Christianity
But Paul here points out that Christian agape love has intelligence. It reasons, thinks and takes the time to assess each situation within the confines of its circumstances so that the love we share, express and deliver (since it is a verb) is of value and purpose. I’m really grateful for this expression provided by Paul because it is SO important to the Christian mind and life! It tells us that our love is reflective and administered in light of circumstances and NOT just as emotive responses.
But then Paul adds to knowledge, “and in all judgment,” which makes it even more clear as the Greek word is “ah-hee-sthasis” which best means, with “discernment.” To love with knowledge and discernment. This really rounds out the biblical definition of agape love and clearly helps the emotionally impetuous lovers in the faith to realize that “genuine authentic Godly love” includes both information and reasoning – something that people who prey on emotional lover’s really dislike. So it’s not about gushing service and money and favors-forward but includes taking the facts (knowledge) and then discerning the facts relative to the situation and needs at hand.
Discernment in Agape Love
This is NOT to suggest that we refuse loving actions and outreach to those we do not know, but it does suggest that when possible, we take the time (which is loving) to learn and know about them, and to discern their needs. When we are led of the Spirit, these things coalesce into some really good courses of action (like what Paul is describing here) which is “agape love by knowledge and discernment.” Notice, however, the mitigating or offsetting word in this passage is “abounding,” which comes from a Greek word that means superabundance of, and this helps bring back the application of Agape love to the arena of passion and emotion.
And it brings to mind a person who is abounding about in active love for others but in each case take the time to know their situation, accesses it by the Spirit and the information given, and then determines (by discernment) how to genuinely assist the way to “love” another individual, which, by the way, might include resisting giving them help when it would only serve to harm them.
Agape Love and Spiritual Maturity
And this is just speaking of stepping in and assessing the material needs of others. The principle remains for believers who are babes or meat eaters. The writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 5:13-14:
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
So just as it would be unloving to give a toddler war and peace to read (and expect them to understand it), it is equally unloving to expect or demand those who are unskilled in the Word to be able to digest the weightier contents. And so a loving Christian will refrain from loading the young of faith with concepts that are incompatible with their level of understanding or traditions given them. To arrive at this place takes discipline and a maturity that comes over time and with longsuffering. But to me it allows us to conclude that an informed, discerning Christian better defines the term loving Christian than one who acts on impulse or emotion. Just a thought.
So last night I presented a show we called the Fallout from Bad Eschatology. What is bad eschatology? Plain and simple, to believe and teach that Jesus is coming back to the world and it will be destroyed. We got a few comments on the subject which I will get to, but I must explain some things and I want to start by going to the board and showing you how I think and why.
When it comes to eschatology, people are interesting. First, they typically cling to what they have been taught – but not always. Then they cling to what makes most sense to them. Then they cling to what is most popular. And then they will cling to what they understand. When it comes to what we understand, we often grab hold of what is the easiest concepts to understand because we typically do not like work. Got all of that? Then will all of this undergirding our beliefs, we “see” the world through specially crafted lenses composed by these presuppositional factors and being fearful.
Eschatology and Belief Systems
This is the mind-set of our LDS family and friends when they claim the BOM is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet, etc. In many cases, many cling to what they have been taught. They cling to what makes most sense to them, they cling to what is most popular (in their group of peers), and they will cling to what they understand. When it comes to what we “understand,” we often grab hold of what are the easiest concepts to understand because we typically do not like work.
So, I want you to know how I arrived at the eschatology I currently maintain and have only grown more convinced of it since I learned of it. First, I taught and believed futurism and was convinced of it. Secondly, I had zero desire to change this view and actually resisted it when it was presented to me on a number of occasions. Third, when challenged with something I could not answer reasonably by scripture, I dove headlong into scripture. And this leads me to an attitude I see in people relative to this topic.
The Chocolate Thief Analogy
X Bill worked under camera for 30 years at Hershey and never stole a single piece of chocolate. Some suspect that Bill steals chocolate. Bill is seen stealing chocolate from Costco, on Halloween from kids' bags, on Easter from kids' baskets, at Seven-Eleven, and at Walmart.
Emails from show:
3 Itty Bitty Piggies Story Time 15 hours ago: That adds real meaning to, "The truth will set you free."
Jeanette Silhouette 16 hours ago: The way I was raised, I can hear someone saying, "If you were living right, you wouldn't have to fear." I always wondered what was wrong with me that I couldn't live the "right way." Not for a long period of time….Although, I tried to conform for years.
Old Religion Dystopia: Knowing Vs. Belief 16 hours ago: Good job, brother and a Big HAPPY YAHHHHHH!
JDUB5: Love your teaching. Truth in your words here today. Thank you.
Guardian Fury: Religious F.O.G – Fear, Obligation, Guilt. = Religious institutions
UltraAar: You should invite James White again and have a discussion with him.
HudsonTD777: The preterist view is way beyond bad eschatology, it is simply satanic.
M H11: With all of the studying you've done – do you think Jesus is seated at the right of God? And – do you view it like when someone departs earth, their body dies but their soul immediately "resurrects"? And – do you think that there is a "white throne" judgement, but instead of "heaven or hell" the judgement is more like did you look to God and walk by faith and accomplish anything of eternal value with the time you had on earth? If no on any of those – I'd like to hear your take. Thx to you and hotm team! Peace
indigochild79: Very good Shawn….love the show. God bless
P Wentworth:
Fistie: We should take care of the earth because it's God's desire that we are good stewards of the earth. That was taught to us from the oldest book in the Bible (Job) until the last word was written. Yes, I've heard many Christians disagree that the earth is ending in 12 years, as I do, but at the same time, they are throwing that plastic into the recycling bin because that's the right thing to do. That's a stereotype used on Christians that most really don't deserve. Love you, Shawn.
Differing Views on Preterism
Victor Rene: Love you Shawn but disagree on the Preterist view. I think it takes theological gymnastics to get to this view. This is Preterism you teach. Jesus hasn't come back yet. Not all of us who believe in the rapture are scared or manipulated and etc. I’m aware some people use it as a manipulation tool and see why you dislike it but don't lump us with Mormons and Catholics because their doctrines are corrupted to the core. A good healthy view of it is to just always live for the Lord in peace and not fear and be ready always because we can die tomorrow and be with the Lord. The rapture can happen in hundreds of years now and such times isn't for us to know. Also we must not be escapists but live for Christ, evangelize and influence here on earth. Also I don't like the type that are alarmists and scare people with their false predictions of Christ return, these type are…
The Essence of Prophecy
Always having prophecy's and putting burdens on people they themselves can't bare.
