Pre-Existence, Part 2

Heart of the Matter: Exploring Pre-Existence and Religious Relationships

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

Show 27 502 Pre-existence – part III
June 28th, 2016
Our prayer tonight will be given by:

More and more the ministry grows around the world and admittedly about 70 percent of our correspondence is related to Mormonism and 30 relating to Subjective ChristianityA direct, personal relationship with God—free from institutional authority, guided by personal relationship, faith and agape love.. This is not the results of an intentional business-like diversification but the natural result of fair play. What I mean by this is we began with a focus on Mormonism because that is what I was and I learned that they buffaloed me with their history, doctrine, and practices.

So it was “guns a blazin’” for a solid seven years. Then my eyes were opened to the group I had hitched myself to once I left Mormonism – what is called Evangelical Christianity. I have always challenged things in this group like their pleas for tithes, their Vegas-like staged performances, business models, American Jesus politics, and Pastor’s all-expense paid vacations every six months. But it was when I started looking into how these institutions was actually practiced religion and then what they taught that I stepped out from them (or better put was actually kicked out by them) and started to included Evangelicalism in my critique.

We have five printed pieces for your consideration – two that speak directly to the LDS situation: “I Was a Born-Again Mormon” and “Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity Face to Face” (an A to Z Doctrinal Compendium). If you have these books (and have enjoyed them) please recommend them to your friends whenever you can. They are worthwhile in terms of content and help this ministry survive.

If you are interested in some material regarding Subjective Christianity we have three items for you to consider: “If My Kingdom Were of this World then My Servants would Fight,” “The End of Material ReligionA fulfilled system of temples, rituals, and laws—replaced by direct spiritual relationship.” (which is a workbook), and our newest book, “Knife to a Gun Fight.” Again, if you haven’t read these please consider them and if you have and enjoyed them, please recommend them to a friend.

Finally, we have a book that is available only online, called, “It’s not the End of the World,” and it goes into a lot of the preterist stuff. You can access all of this by going to www.hotm.tv and clicking on the store. We are currently working on making many of these books Audio Books so look forward to these in the future. And with that, how about a moment at our BOARD OF DIRECTION.

Objective Religion Vs. Subjective Relationships

Run Board of Direction Spot here please

For centuries “evangelical Christianity,” heated by the flames of burned-over district fervor and zealously street-preaching to save the lost from the infernal flames of an eternal, has gone into the world with a number of set messages or questions:

“There is Good News!”
“Have you been saved?”
“Where will you spend your eternity?”
“Can I share with you a little something called, ‘The Romans Road?’”
“What do you think of Jesus?”

Branching off these themes self-described (and self-appointed) Christian apologists have hit the ground running with a host of tactics, methods, and formulas aimed not so much at hearing and exchanging ideas but at… winning. Not souls, but arguments.

Objective Religion and Subjective Relationships

It almost seems that in our modern age of the Christian faith that it is much more important to be right on every point of doctrine (and to receive the applaud for having a victory) than to patiently endure unsound doctrine as a means to save some. Part of this is the result of objective religion taking over the hearts and minds of people rather than subjective relationships with God through Christ.

Simply put, Objective Religion (loosely defined as religious orthodoxy, denominationalism (including the denomination of non-demonimationalism), memberships, and religious demands placed upon people by “brick and mortar” religious institutions) is almost always focused on “producing and reaching their objectives” while subjective relationships are centered moreso on relating with God and others according to the make-up of each individual and letting objectives take a back seat to allowing others to pace themselves with God according to their comfortability levels and not the desires of the institutions involved. We might compare the Objectives of Objective Religion to the Objectives of Subjective Relationships in the following way:

Objective Religion
TOPIC
Subjective Relationship
Sinners prayers
Altar Calls
Vetting the Experience
Spiritual Regeneration
Between the individual and God (with insights always available)
Modes and Methods
Pre-regeneration or post
To be a member
By a certain person only
Water

Baptism and Expressions of Faith

Baptism. Huh? However, whenever, whatever – but a beautiful heartfelt expression. Policing for – Hierarchy of – Informing about –

SinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. Between the individual and God – period. That is who it is between in the end anyway, right? Calls for – Necessary for acceptance – Continual practice – Repentance May the Spirit guide Trinity (period) Some Oneness Some Modalist Some Ontology of God Teach all sides – let the Spirit guide. Some formal – Others informal (but still formalized in terms of acceptance) Memberships Never. And let people attend where they want and wish WITHOUT punishment! Encouraged at different levels – minimal to extremes

Church Practices

Activity Do what you want. Almost ubiquitously applied and used Tithes Forget it. Give as you are led. Encouraged through a number of means Church Attendance Whatever. Come one week. Miss a year. Up to you. (see sin) Moral Legislation Encouragement to pressure Service/Volunteerism Open invitation but no pressure Non-event to a major event Dress Standards None. Non-event to a major event Dietary Issues None. Non-event to major event Lifestyle None. Non-event to major Political Issues None. Typically to win rather than persuade Apologetics To persuade lovingly. Not to win. Non-event to major event Bible versions Whatever. Generally established and followed “Isms” and “Ists” None and all. Almost always exclusionary rarely truly inclusionary Inclusion or Exclusion Total Inclusion Almost always conditional Love Absolutely unconditional. Depends on Denomination Church Hierarchy None. No class of Believer. All equal in views, ideas, opinions, beliefs, and knowledge.

In the end and according to the above, there is a desire in Objective Religion to gather unto itself those who will conform to its established edicts, ways, policies and doctrines. Statistics and numbers are important. How many is often asked no matter what the subject.

The number of souls saved? The number baptized? The number who attended the festival? How many attend on Sundays?

These are the quantifiers of Men and Man and their institutions because when the Spirit is working the numbers are often unknown. What is known is God was there, people were moved, lives improved, and hearts were encouraged, or softened, or opened, or healed.

Thoughts on Pre-Mortal Existence

Alright, with DAT let’s continue on with our discussion of the Pre-Mortal Existence.

We ended last week noting that as with many things in Christianity, and with most things in Mormonism, Joseph Smith morphed in his views on the Pre-mortal Existence and moved from teaching that spirit and element were “wholly separate things” to spirit becoming element (material) only in a more refined sense.

So there is the thinking on the materiality of souls. But what about the origin and existence of the soul or spirit (in human beings)?

Within Christianity, there really exists no teaching on a pre-mortal existence of the human soul. Even those Christians who over the course of Christian history who have maintained a belief in the pre-mortal existence of souls admit that it is not supported by the Bible.

For instance, Congregational Theologian Edward Beecher (who lived from 1803 to 1895 and was an ardent supporter of a pre-mortal existence) admitted: “Even those serious theologians who assert the doctrine of pre-existence do not claim any express scriptural evidence for it, only that it nowhere expressedly refutes it.” (Edward Beecher, The Conflict of the Ages, pg. 563)

Appealing to the Bible to support the idea of a Pre-mortal Existence for all human beings can be tempting at times because it does speak in places as if we have always been around or that we came from a place before coming here and taking on bodies.

Part of the explanation for this lies in the fact that the Bible clearly describes God as having foreknowledge of all things –and sometimes passages that appeal to this can errantly flow over as proof texts for the pre-existence of human beings.

Ideal vs. Actual Pre-Existence in Theology

This is known by theologians as “ideal pre-existence” meaning that God knew ideally who we were prior to our ever existing in any form. So while there is all sorts of biblical evidence to support ideal pre-existence there is none that supports what we might call an actual pre-mortal existence.

It would be when Joseph Smith started in on “translating the Bible” in 1830 (by the gift and power of God) that an actual pre-existence started to get legs in Mormonism.

As a result of this translational interpretation of Smith many LDS will take passages of the Bible and use them to prove a pre-existence.

Let me share some of the bigger hitters with you:

Jeremiah 1:5! (I used to ignorantly use it all the time when I was on my Mormon mission to the people of Pennsylvania). It says: “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

The Concept of Preexistence

knew and even ordained Jeremiah before he was born Jeremiah must have been there before his physical birth. Almost all biblical scholars interpret this passage as referring to ideal preexistence rather than actual – which in context of scripture is the reasonable view. Even LDS scholar Lowell Bennion agrees, and admits that many of the biblical passages that the LDS use to support their teachings on the preexistence, including this one, refer to God’s foreknowledge of all things rather than the way the LDS choose to see them. I could not agree more. Bennion flatly states – “a pre-earth life for man cannot be clearly and indubitably established by the Bible.” I wish the LDS would at least admit to what one of their own scholars say and honestly use the Bible to support biblical precepts that are present rather than to falsely or wrongly endorse the peculiarities of their faith.

I mean if they believe in a pre-mortal existence have at it – but don’t twist the Bible to support the views. If they would do this we would much more quickly come to some degree of decorum which might serve to bridge other gaps in peace.

Biblical Interpretations of Preexistence

LDS Missionaries and members often cite Job 38:5 where God asks Job:

5 “Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?”

The LDS suggest that this was us mortals shouting for joy at the proposal of God’s plan for us to come to earth and gain physical bodies. It was none other than Joseph Smith himself who used this passage to suggest that Job was in existence at this time, “otherwise,” Smith wondered, “why would God ask where Job was?” (The Words of Joseph Smith, Pg. 68) I’m not kidding. Biblical scholars see the question as rhetorical and the whole point of the question was to highlight that Job was NOWHERE “when all the Sons of God shouted for joy.” In other words the whole tenor of the chapter (when taken in context) proves that the point God was making to Job was to show his insignificance relative to creation.

The comeback many LDS give is to ask, well who then are the Son’s of God being referred to here and the answer seems to be the heavenly hosts – angels – who were part of God’s heavenly creation. While the Old Testament provides little information on a pre-mortal existence there are a couple apocryphal books that seem to confirm that by the end of the Jewish exile there was a belief in the doctrine.

Apocryphal Writings and Cultural Influences

For example, The Slavonic Book of Enoch 23:5 states: “All souls are prepared before the foundation of the world.” What this actually means is up to debate and neither confirms nor denies a pre-mortal existence as the LDS speak of it but only says that all souls are “prepared” from “the foundation of the world.” Then the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (30:2-3) refers to “the storehouses in which the foreordained number of souls is kept.” In light of these late apocryphal writings of the Jews some scholars believe that the notion of a pre-mortal existent state was received by the Jews from their association with both Persian and Greek cultures during their exile.

It is also well known that the Pythagoreans and Platonists advocated a pre-mortal existence since the beginning of the 4th Century BC, and according to one scholar, this doctrine was well known to Jewish writers and was taught in Talmud and Kabbalah as a result of it being imported from these external influences. We see evidence of these beliefs among the Jews of Jesus' day in the New Testament narrative with the big one being in John 9 where we read:

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The evidence that there was some idea that the man born blind had the capacity to sin could indicate that there were notions of a pre-mortal existence floating around in the days of Jesus.

Beliefs Surrounding Pre-Mortal Existence

The Jews believed that a child could sin in utero, which could have been a point of reference. (Raymond Brown, The Gospel According to John, pg. 371) Additionally, there was a Jewish belief in "the transmigration of souls," which appears in some Jewish Apocryphal writings and was also endorsed by the Pharisees, according to Josephus. (Thomas B. Thayer, The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment, pg. 106) This teaching included retribution beyond deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., impacting how a person would return in the next life cycle. This concept sounded very much like reincarnation, which is touched upon when some thought Jesus was a reincarnation of the beheaded John the Baptist.

However, just because some Jews during the life of Jesus had been influenced by these teachings and asked Him about their application to a man born blind, it does not mean that Jesus endorsed the views. The only response He gives to the inquiry is that the man was born blind "so that the works of God should be made manifest in Him."

Pre-Mortal Existence in the New Testament

At the end of the day, the only New Testament references to a pre-mortal existence are connected to Jesus Himself. Paul says:

Philippians 2:5
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

John the Baptist, who was older physically than Jesus, referred to His pre-mortal existence by saying:

John 1:30
"This is he concerning whom I said, After me doth come a man, who hath come before me, because he was before me:"

And Jesus Himself said to others:

John 8:23
"Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

Early Christian Views

A brief audit of biblical views on pre-mortal existence shows that while it emerged after the Apostles, it was never universally accepted and eventually lost favor. Some early church figures, such as Justin Martyr, Theodoretus, and Origen, held differing opinions on the subject. The teaching was formally condemned in the 6th century by a counsel at Constantinople. Around 220 AD, Origen of Alexandria taught that spirits of Man preexisted and had agency; however, unlike Mormonism, he believed being sent to earth was a punishment for disobedient spirits.

Origen's ideas, whether seen as echoes of early theology or errant Greek influences, fascinate many today. Interestingly, while Christians today reject Origen’s views on pre-mortal existence, they accept his views and contributions to the idea of the Trinity.

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