The Best Church Model: Part III

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism (and the Factory here in Salt Lake City, Utah) this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where Biblical Christianity meets American Evangelicalism Face to Face. Show 15: The Best Church Model – Part III, June 11th 2013.

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.. We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this, His ministry. We pray His Spirit upon you – and us – tonight. You know, let me remind any and all who are watching this program. Our ministry is to the LDS – first and foremost. In the course of reaching out to them with the truth and freedom in Christ we have had the blessing of touching other peoples lives and we are SO grateful to be used this way.

Exposing Mormonism

But the primary purpose of our ministry is to expose Mormonism for what it is and to then introduce them to biblical truths. We realized part of this purpose includes preparing those who walk from Mormonism with a biblical view of what is good faith . . . and what is bad. Of course, we were not allowed to do this with our former television station but this is why we are examining American Evangelicalism today. Just a reminder.

Okay, on Sunday June 23rd from 6-8pm we are having an open house of our studio here at the Factory. On the days we are not using the facility we want to open it up to Christian churches and/or ministries to utilize our production capabilities. Some of you have ideas for programs you want to air. Some of you have teachings you want to record and some churches out there have advertisements they want to create to promote their church – which they may even air on stations like TV20 here in Salt Lake City. And if it’s for Christian purposes we are here to help. So tell your pastor or the audio/video people at your church to come on over take a look at our Salt Lake studio.

Open House Details

When? Sunday June 23rd 2013 6-8pm Go to www.C-A-M-P-U-S.com for more information.

Last week we had a caller present me with a scripture. He is of the opinion that a person cannot walk from salvation even if a person no longer believes – and he used a passage from the book of II Timothy to prove his point. Standing alone the passage says: “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.” 2nd Timothy 2:13.

I got online and have seen this passage used time and time again to support the idea that there is nothing – including unbelief – that would allow a person to walk from salvation. When our caller presented the verse I admitted that in and of itself it appeared to support his position but told him I would look into it.

Importance of Context in Exegesis

Over the course of teaching on television we have stressed and stressed a number of factors that play into maintaining sound biblical exegesis (which in the Greek means, “to lead out” which, when it comes to interpreting the Bible, it means understanding the Word by what IT says (what it leads out) instead of reading into the text (eisegesis) what we want it to mean. It goes without saying that a big part of sound exegetical practice is context (context! Context! Context!) It’s context relative to the verse itself and what is being said. It’s the context of the verses around it, of the chapter, of the book the verse is found in, of the Testament in which it is presented, and relative to the Bible as a whole.

If there are thirty verses that say God is Not a Man, and one verse that describes Him as having hands, we have to figure out what the thirty are really saying relative to the one. If the thirty are concrete, we look at the one and have to conclude something else is meant – in this case it would be a Hebrew idiom where anthropomorphic descriptions are used to describe a God of Spirit. In the context of the Bible as a whole, the New Testament, and the passage in question, the “apparent,” the “knee jerk interpretation of II Timothy 2:13 (suggesting that it supports the idea that even losing faith is not a disqualification for salvation) is lost when we step back and merely observe. So, what could that passage mean taking all these tools of understanding into account? Let’s just go back a couple verses before it. This simple practice…

Understanding Faithfulness and Denial

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Right here we find Paul giving us a qualifier for living with Him – dying with Him. If we die to ourselves we shall live with Him. This is the first of a short series of IF/Then’s. If the stance of eternal security existed, Paul would have written: “Even if we don’t die to ourselves, we will live with Him.” But this is not what he says, is it?

Conditional Promises

Okay, now verse 12 gives us two more “IF/THEN’S.” The first is a positive requirement that if obeyed produces a positive result, and the second is a negative action that if taken, produces a negative result. Listen to it:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Again, if the premise of eternal security was true, Paul would have written: “If we fail to suffer, we shall still reign with Him. And even if we deny Him, He will NOT deny us.” But this, AGAIN, is NOT what is written. Just the opposite. And just the opposite drive of Once Saved always saved. “IF we deny Him (to me that means say we do not accept or believe Him) He will also deny us.”

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

The caller understood this to be saying that even if we fail to believe He will abide faithful and we will be saved. That is a complete eisegetical interpretation of the passage and ignores context completely. A contextual and sound reading of this passage is: And if we no longer believe, he will do what He has promised (as in the passages above) because He cannot go back on the promises he has made (like the ones mentioned in verse 11 and 12).

What we discover is actually the exact opposite meaning of II Timothy 2:13 than what our caller submitted as proof for his position. Paul has warned: If you deny Him he will deny you (and he follows up with a passage that supports this claim saying) “And if you believe not, He will be faithful in denying you, for He cannot deny Himself.” Hope that clears things up. And listen, it’s not that our caller is dumb or evil or any of that. I make mistakes on interpretation daily. Thank God for the Holy Spirit, and for his willing spirit to search and seek.

Insights from Atheists

Viewer Charles M. out in Texas graciously forwarded the following article to us from the Atlantic Monthly Group. It’s titled: Listening to young Atheists: Lessons for a Stronger Christianity it’s dated June 6th 2013 and was written by Larry Alex Taunton, who, according to the article, has spent a lot of time rubbing shoulders with some prominent atheists (like the late Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins) even though he is a Christian.

When he’s not hob-knobbing around with the world’s most recognized atheists he’s on college campus’s defending and speaking about Christianity. This activity has brought him face to face with a lot of college-aged atheists. As a result he’s set up this interview system and is bringing them into his trust and exploring their journeys OUT OF FAITH. It’s truly a fascinating study.

One of the first questions they are asking these college-aged atheists is: “What led you to become an atheist?”

Key Findings

The study has revealed a number of surprising things. Here are the highlights:

• Most of the atheists interviewed had attended a Christian church The author notes: “Most of our participants had not chosen their worldview from ideologically neutral positions at all, but in reaction to Christianity. Not Islam. Not Buddhism. Christianity.” Ask yourselves why you think this is the case? Could it be that these types of students see right through the show so many Christian churches have become? The second thing the interviewees revealed was they felt the message and mission that came out of their church experience was “vague.”

• The mission and message of their churches was vague

The Shift in Church Messages

admitted that they heard plenty of messages encouraging "social justice," “community involvement,” and "being good," but they seldom saw the relationship between that message, Jesus Christ, and the Bible. “Why do you suppose that is? I’ll tell you right now – the freaking churches have stepped from teaching the Word of God and resorted to teaching “about” the word of God in “relevant” and supposedly applicable ways. Listen, the words of man are vain, but the Word of God does NOT return void. Makes me ill.

Perceived Superficiality of Churches

Number three: The atheists

• They felt their churches offered superficial answers to life's difficult questions. This is what the article reported:

“When our participants were asked what they found unconvincing about the Christian faith, they spoke of evolution vs. creation, sexuality, the reliability of the biblical text, Jesus as the only way, etc. Some had gone to church hoping to find answers to these questions. Others hoped to find answers to questions of personal significance, purpose, and ethics. Serious-minded, they often concluded that church services were largely shallow, harmless, and ultimately irrelevant. As Ben, an engineering major at the University of Texas, so bluntly put it: "I really started to get bored with church."

Listen – the Bible is GOD’S Word to man. It answers all the questions relative to sex, and drugs, and rock and roll. IT gives ideas on creation but avoids specifics. Churches and their pastors can take the Word, do their homework, use it to provide viable answers from it to their congregates, OR they can dismiss issues as irrelevant, or make up supportive evidences, or teach fluff. But I gotta tell you, the latter attempts will be seen, if not by all, then at least by the thinkers. I have personally found that many atheist are deeply curious and inquisitive, probing – more often than not to a fault. But because of this general make-up they are not going to be nourished or filled on fluff – and they know fluff when they see it.

Respect for Biblical Teaching

Alright – listen to this one. These “once Christians now atheists” said

• They expressed their respect for those ministers who took the Bible seriously. The writer said:

“Without fail, our former church-attending students expressed respect for those Christians who unashamedly embraced biblical teaching.” I think this sends a message right over the stern of every pastors desk. If you are tempted to soft-sell sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., or salvation, or avoid making a theological stand on issues the Bible makes clear, you not only lose sheep, you lose respect.

• The article said that ages 14-17 were decisive (in a persons walk and that)
• The decision to embrace unbelief was often an emotional one

Emotional Influences and the Internet

This sixth point is intriguing to me. The author points out that while most of the atheists initially cited rational and intellectual influences that contributed to their loss of faith in the end it appeared that most of them abandoned faith over emotional drivers. I can’t prove this (as I am not a professional) but I would suggest that these kids had learned (from media and church) to relate to the things “emotionally” rather than through sound reasoning and were therefore susceptible to emotional drivers rather than drivers of reasonable faith. What I mean by this is when a person has learned to rely on emotion to feel “truth” they are subject to “feeling” their way through life rather than thinking their way through it. Granted, it’s a tenuous balance, but in my opinion, emotive appeals – whether from a concert, film, book, speech or church service – are one of the worst forms of discerning truth.

The seventh factor the study uncovered was

• The internet factored heavily into their conversion to atheism

The authors states:

“When our participants were asked to cite key influences in their conversion to atheism–people, books, seminars, etc. — we expected to hear frequent references to the names of the "New Atheists" (like Hitchens – they go on) We did not. Not once. Instead, we heard vague references to videos they had watched on YouTube or website forums.” I would tie the influence of internet driven videos and

Insights from Listening to Young Atheists

Websites in the ruining of faith directly to the fact that these kids faith was NOT firmly established in the first place. And I would suggest that this (may – again) be directly correlated to a lack of sound biblical teachings delivered in love. The author concludes the article by saying this: “That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable."

Conflicting Soteriological Positions

(And then he quotes one of the students they interviewed who said): "Christianity is something that if you really believed it, it would change your life and you would want to change [the lives] of others. I haven't seen too much of that." I would add to this observation a hearty amen.

Okay. Last week I proposed the idea that the soteriological position a pastor (or the faith he represents) will almost always dictate the way that pastor or the religion “does church.” For example, Mormonism believes that Jesus plays a role in the salvation/exaltation process of a person (therefore He is mentioned in their services at times) but because they also believe that each individual must “do all they can to merit” the application of His atonement – Mormonism has a very works-based approach to doing church – (and doing life, for that matter).

On the other end of the spectrum, the “Saved by grace through faith once and for all and nothing else matters” churches typically hold “stop and go” services with most of them reiterating the need for the Jesus experience over and over and over again. Between these two polarized types of church lies everything in between. Where the doctrine exists in a church that “speaking in tongues proves a person has been saved” you will almost certainly find such churches spending a lot of time and attention on their people . . . (thaz right) speakin in tongues! Again and in other words show me a churches soteriology and we can get pretty close to describing how they will ultimately “do church.”

The Role of Reformed Churches

There seems to be an exception to this however. Interestingly enough it exists in Reformed Churches – or churches that embrace five-point Calvinism. Maintaining the “once save always saved” position, these typically “do church” in a far more instructive and regimented way than what we see in the “stop and go” Jesus churches who preach the same thing. I would suggest that part of the reason for this is found in the fact that five Pointers also believe that there is an unconditional election of God’s chosen and a limited atonement (done only for those who have been elected). In the wake of this theological combo, most five pointers, while convinced they can never forfeit or lose their salvation, also seem to have the need to constantly prove that they truly have been elected – hence the religious regimentation supplied by their churches.

Okay, so that was the first point – soteriological positions dictate how churches do church. Additionally, I also proposed (last week) that while salvation cannot be lost or forfeited by and through failures in the flesh (because it wasn’t obtained by lack of failures in the flesh), there is a state of mind and heart that could cause a one-time believer to walk from what has been given them – faithlessness.

Implications for Church Practices

I mentioned this to help build a case for how I think God has instructed us to do church and to do it right. After all, if once a person has been saved they can NEVER EVER abandon this gift, then all the reasons for doing church the right way (that the Bible describes) are redundant and even obsolete. Why all the warnings, all the instruction, all the directives on what to avoid and beware of in our Christian walk if salvation is set in concrete and NOTHING after it has been received can alter this? To prove a believer can walk from salvation I resorted to a verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. presentation of Hebrews 3 to prove my point.

In response we

Exploring Salvation and Security in Scripture

I received a number of insights. One email said this:

“I believe you are making a mistake in your exposition of Hebrews 3. It seems whenever a person breaks their theological neck, so to speak, they do it in Matthew, Acts, or Hebrews. This is because of the transitional nature of these books. Matthew going from the Old Testament to the New, Acts from Israel to the Church, and Hebrews from the Church to the tribulationA real historical event fulfilled in 70 A.D.—not a future apocalyptic crisis. More.

Hebrews is, doctrinally speaking, primarily a book written to Jewish tribulation saints. Hence the requirement of holding fast until the end. (I would at this point, if this were a face-to-face discussion, ask what requirement? Why is there any sort of requirement?) He goes on:

This is clear as the picture of the children of Israel preparing to enter the promised land, which is a clear type of tribulation saints preparing to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Furthermore, in the Pauline epistles, the primary books for Church age doctrine, we have clear passages that illustrate we cannot lose our salvation."

Scriptural Supports for Eternal Security

He cites three of these passages, namely Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, and 1st Corinthians 1:8:

Romans 8 says:

“For I am persuaded, that neither deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:28-29)

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

“Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1st Corinthians 1:8

By the way, there are other passages that are popular proof texts for the premise of “once saved always saved,” like:

John 10:28-29: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

Philippians 1:6: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

The writer concludes, saying:

It is illogical that a Christian could lose their salvation. A saved, born-again child of God is part of Christ’s body. Do you think God is going to mark up His son’s again? That’s silly.

Anyway, I enjoy the show but disagree with you completely on this. Believers that are born again cannot be unborn again or give back God’s gift of salvation if they received it.

Divergent Views on Eternal Security

So let me touch on this refutation before we go to the phones because how it is perceived relates to how people “do church.” And if the New Testament way of doing church is the correct one, I cannot fathom the Calvinistic teaching of “once saved always saved” holding water.

So let me first say this:

I completely agree with the passages presented here by this writer. Again, believers are secure in Him and the finished work He did on our behalf. Therefore, I can honestly say that:

"I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:28-29)

But notice this passage does not say we cannot separate ourselves from our love and faith and trust in Him. “Other creatures can’t . . .” but we can. God will never, ever fail or leave us, but as we shall see there are FAR too many passages that warn us about leaving Him (or, abandoning faith).

The Sealing of Believers with the Holy Spirit

1 says we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise when we believed, I embrace this wholeheartedly. We believe and are sealed. The sealing does not leave when we sin, or fail, or falter. We are His. But we also note that in the same book we read:

Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Why not? If salvation is never in jeopardy, why not grieve the holy Spirit of God? What grieves the Holy Spirit is sin. If salvation cannot be lost, why NOT sin? Because there is a danger to willful, constant sinning in the lives of believers.

The Danger of Sin

What is the danger? Go back to Hebrews 3 where it says in verse 3:

“But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”

What’s the problem if believers become “hardened through the deceitfulness of sin?” What is being hardened? Their hearts. Their faith. Their belief. The ONLY thing that if failing disqualifies believers from salvation.

When 1st Corinthians 8 says that “Jesus Christ confirms us unto the end, that we may be blameless” again, I agree. As long as we remain tapped into Jesus Christ, our source.

Eternal Security in Christ

In John 10:28-29 when Jesus said, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

Again, I agree – no man. If a man could “take our salvation” or remove us from the Father’s hand we would have need to fear. But in Christ there is no need for fear – including the fear of losing our salvation – put that away. It’s a lie.

But LISTEN CAREFULLY – it is not fear that leads a person to abandon faith. It’s pride. It’s the deceitfulness of sin hardening the human heart, its arrogance based in intellectualism, its love of self and self-will over love of God and His. Hence all the warnings to individuals to avoid letting such things take hold.

I agree with Hebrews 7:25 which says "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

But He is not going to save those who have rejected Him by faith. For those He does NOT live to make intercession for them. Hebrew 10:26 makes this clear, saying:

“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

How can a Christian, whose sins have been forgiven, past, present and future, sin willfully? By NOT believing on Him to paid their price, That’s how.

Faith and Works

Finally, I agree with Philippians 1:6 when it says:

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

Every Christian ought to be completely confident that He who began a good work in us will perform it until the day of Christ. He is always faithful to His every promise. And our flippy-floppy natures of doing good and evil is irrelevant – He will complete His side of the bargain. But remember, we come to Him BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Our part is faith. This is not a work. James 2 differentiates between faith and works. It’s acquiescing. It’s receiving Him and His gifts. Its believing in His promises. Walk from faith altogether, you walk from salvation all together…and there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801) 590-8413

New Spot? If Not…then I will read emails.

Hello Shawn, I heard your sermon on creeds and you are correct, they have no place in the word of God. However you have been misled to accept the Trinity as a Bible truth. I think that you are too intelligent and have not meditated on your Bible knowledge and be able to see that Jesus is not Jehovah. If you have any controversial scriptures in this regard, send them to me and I will clearly correct each one with three Bible verses. (The Amen Jesus) says Praise God…

Understanding Calvin’s Reputation

During the past few episodes [which have been uploaded to Youtube] you’ve made a couple mentions of the death of Servetus, and I’ve heard you talk of Calvin as though he murdered him. While I’m glad you retracted the statement about Calvin killing him for his views on the circulatory system (which is just silly), I can’t help but wonder why Calvin gets painted in this light by so many people. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that Servetus was murdered at the hands of Calvin and his followers; it’s a popular statement. However I’ve never actually seen any evidence of this, so I’m left confused. I’ve even seen evidence to the contrary. Could you provide any sources which can attest to Calvin being at fault for the death of Servetus while remaining true to the context of the situation?

Reflections on an Evangelical Community

Hello Shawn, I think you are something….an iconoclast?…An Elijah??? Please do not pray for a famine though. It is so great to see someone come out and criticize evangelical Christianity for some of its craziness. I quit going to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa many years ago when it became apparent that everyone just parroted the dogma of CC and there was no room to question anything. Also, I am so glad that even though you studied at Calvary Chapel Bible school you don't sound exactly like Chuck Smith!

When I went there it was during the Jesus People time and Lonnie Frisbee,, etc. I noticed that everyone acted like robots. Every question had a canned answer and if you disagreed you were "backsliding." Also, many people backslid fairly occasionally and went back to smoking pot—and still went to church and had the "Holy Ghost Smileys." It was very weird. My daughter, who used to be on methamphetamine for twelve years, wouldn't go to Calvary because she thought everyone there was smoking pot. Her best friend's dad was a CC attender and his house reeked of hashish. I am glad that as you say "we are saved by grace through faith to love." I don't think the active service message was ever preached at Calvary.

Another thing that made me leave CC was a nightmare I had about a little boy I knew there. He was four. His mom, a fire-breathing, Bible quoting Christian who had a big poster in her yard about Jesus used to beat that little boy soundly for almost anything he did she didn't like. One time I was at the laundromat with my 11 month old daughter and my daughter kept trying to get out of her stroller. One of the wives from the old group Love Song came over to me and told me that my daughter wasn't too young to be spanked! I know Chuck Smith didn't agree with this type of child rearing, but somehow the message didn't filter down to the members. I dreamed the four year old boy was outside my window crying for me to save him from his mother…

Personal Journey and Reflections

Praise God, by the way, my daughter and her husband and kids are Christian and really loving, service-oriented people. I can take no credit for this. I was a distracted, college student through her childhood with a lot of hangover hippy habits that didn't help her at all. I had prayed over her at age two and asked God to keep her a Christian–and then I went off into atheism for a time–and radical feminism. The thing is, Calvary had a lot of young people who needed psychological counseling. But No, all they had was Romaine who told us off if we came for counseling and told us to read the Word and we would be fine.

Anyway, I appreciate your Daniel slingshot approach to the giant of faith healing too. I come from a very Pentecostal family and I do know God heals people. However, He never asks for money or meets people in huge auditoriums, etc. My cousin was a Pentecostal preacher who held a prayer meeting where someone's teeth were filled by prayer! Ridiculous! Now my cousin works as a restaurant manager and lives with his lover Fred. Weird stuff sure does happen. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

Also, I recommend Darren Brown's videos on Youtube. He trained a young

Faith Exploration and Church Community

Guy to be a faith healer and had a service in Texas. I think it is called "Miracles For Sale." It is great.
Camille

Seeking a Church

From: Matthew

Subject: Help finding a Church

Message Body:

Hi Shawn, I grew up in a very legalistic group that had a lot of similarities to Mormanism. There ended up being massive scandals that made me lose faith in the group (yes, my faith was in the group, not Christ). I basically became a Deist and felt that all religion was false. I found your content on you tube while searching to watch christian debates and was blown away by the similarities in my background and that of the Mormons. I recognized the tone and method of the LDS that called your show as the same that I had used when trying to talk about the doctrines that I was raised under. I listened to all 7yrs of your archives and you have had an immense influence on me and have caused me to want to start going to church again. I would like to try and find a church locally here in middle TN that I could go to with my family. We’ve tried a couple and can’t get past the feeling that they are nice people, but very shallow in the word and more about entertainment than actually feeding the flock. Do you have any recommendations for this area?

Thanks man, and I really appreciate your ministry and feel that your series on EVC was perfect timing to equip me with being able to choose the right church.

Matthew

Anabaptist Errors and Their Descendants

EMAILS

Anabaptist views in general altogether foreign to Holy Scripture. Many, then, were the errors of Anabaptism. The antipaidobaptism of the Anabaptists strongly characterizes their Baptist stepchildren today. Also the other views of the Anabaptists are still encountered — among many of their other different stepchildren.

The latter include: sacramentalists like the Campbellites; unitarian Christadelphians; ’charismatic’ Pentecostalists; premillenial Dispensationalists; polygamous proto-Mormons; state-hating ”Jehovah’s witnesses”; soul-sleeping Seventh-day Adventists; and various assorted deniers of everlasting punishment.

1. At this point, we merely mention the various heresies of Anabaptism which spawned this seed. There was the anti-trinitarianism of Jan Denck, David Joris, Jan Campanus, and Miguel Servetus (against Genesis 1:1-3 and Matthew 28:19 and Revelation 4:5-8f). There was the denial of Christ’s incarnation by Melchior Hofmann and Menno Simons (against Luke 1:31f and Romans 1:3f and Hebrews 2:9-17 & 5:1-8).

2. There was the repeated adultery of Louis Haetzer — and the polygamy of the demagogue Jan Beukels of Leyden and of the murderer Jan Matthys of Haarlem (against Malachi 2:14-16 and Matthew 19:4-9 and First Thessalonians 4:3-8). Indeed, there was also the revolutionism of Thomas Muenzer, Bernard Knipperdolling and even David Joris (against Romans 13:1-7 and First Peter 2:13-17 and Titus 3:1f).

3. Then there was their communism (alias community of goods and community of wives) — squarely condemned by Exodus 20:15-17 and Acts 5:4 and Ephesians 4:24-28.

4. There were the pseudo-pentecostal babblings of Thomas Muenzer, and the false prophecies of Menno Simons — against Matthew 6:7 and First Corinthians 14:7-21 and First John 4:1-6. There was an anarchical opposition to oathing — against Deuteronomy 10:20 and Jeremiah 4:2 and Second Corinthians 1:23. There was also a heretical doctrine of soul-sleep — against Luke 23:43 and Second Corinthians 5:1-9 and Philippians 1:21-23. Indeed, in some cases, there was even a denial of everlasting punishment — against Isaiah 34:8-10 and Mark 9:42-48 and Revelation 14:11 & 20:10.

Evangelicalism Critique

EMAILS
Elliott wrote and said:
I enjoy your new switch to evangelicalism. I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church of America and didn’t realize how similar it is to the LDS church. I stopped being christian when I took a class at a local mega church and learned from their class and my own study that doctrines like the trinity, divinity of christ, conditional salvation etc are not found in the bible. How they represent evolution and science generally is wildly incorrect. Since they believe the end of the world is happening any day now, they are actually pro-pollution. I learned the failures of their political ideas, such as the horrible results of supply side economics and laize fair government. It’s safe to say that most evangelicals believe that Obama is a mexican and the antichrist, Osama Bid Laden is alive and well (maybe living at the white house, maybe living with elvis). Evangelicalism is a jumble of error. People need to research how biblical fragments were selected arbitrarily and politically to form the current books of the bible, and…

Examination of Theological Concepts

how many were cut out to avoid theological embarrassment. The council of nicea is exactly like joseph smith’s hat looking. Some of the accepted pauline epistles are known to be authentic, others are questionable, others are known forgeries. Most seminarians know this, but it remains a dirty secret. There are many theological stances that are simply self-contradictory and laughable that I won’t go in to, though evangelicals just stick their fingers in their ears and cannot be convinced. I think your show is leading people away from this cult and toward reason, skepticism and critical thinking.

Jennifer H forwarded us a video that appears to show that a man known online as the Backyard Professor (a guy who used to defend Mormonisms claims) has gone agnostic.

Personal Experiences with Mormonism

Hi,

I learn a lot from your show. From all that I have read on ex-Mormon Websites, it seems like the best place to plant a seed is with young missionaries who are not yet totally invested or convinced of their faith but are following in a family tradition. When I do have such opportunities, I will ask them where they would stand with the Bible and Jesus if the Mormon faith was suddenly proven without a doubt to be false. They all answer that of course they would still believe in Jesus and the Bible, which leads me with nothing more to ask. Am I asking the wrong question? I think that the Mormon population. Is one of the least evangelized groups of Americans and I want to know where to begin. I have been praying for some of my dear friends, the Hudson Family, for their deliverance out of Mormonism. God has been working in insane ways; He is so smart! Well you please pray for them with me?

Thank you for your ministry! I am happy to see your show on Direct TV in Southern Cal. I hope it motivates more to be moved to evangelize the community and take seriously the lies and bondage they are in.

Sincerely, Christa Campbell

Viewer Feedback

From: Catherine

Subject: campus

Message Body:

Hey! I was really looking forward to going to church with you today on the live stream. Maybe I misunderstood you last tues. night, didnt you say campus would start live this sunday? I cant go back and watch last weeks show because you don’t have it up yet on the website. I was hoping maybe I could go back and get clarity from the episode. Thanx for all you do, I am really praying about perhaps supporting you and your calling.

Thoughts on Life and Faith

• OTHERS FROM DUANE –

You were impressed with the young men who blew away the Mormon man with their question, “Why do babies die?” The question I would pose to these young men and yourself is…Why don't all babies die?

Why do babies die? For the same reason dogs and cats die. For the same reason weeds and thistles grow in our gardens. Because of sin, God has cursed his creation.

FROM JILLIAN

Hi Shawn. My name is Jillian and I’ve been watching your show via YouTube for a couple years now after finding it through a search about Mormonism. To make LONG horrible and drawn out story very short. I met my now husband Matt when I was 20 and he was 25. I am now 26 going on 27 and he’s now 32. We quickly became best friends and married 2 years later. I was raised ”Christian” and didn’t know a thing about Mormonism until I met him. Matt’s family was mormon and he was raised mormon but hasn’t been ”active” since he was a teenager. He knew it smelled funny and wasn’t for him. So being the youngest of 6 kids, his parents have always deep down been highly dissapointed he didn’t go on a mission and go to church and all that non sense. Well anyways his whole family pretends to like me for a couple years while trying to get me to go to church and I always respectfully decline but never get into what I believe since I had been warned to not do so. Anyways some things were said about us that we found out about from some of the ”perfect” older mormon siblings and slowly the whole family was turned against me for no reason other than certain siblings making up lies about me and turning all the other siblings and parents against me. I have had the most horrific experience with these people who pretend they are better than…

Personal Challenges with Religious Misinformation

The world going to church and paying their tithing while blatantly lying about me to anyone who will listen. I really have experienced the evilness this religion can help spawn and am about ready to burst. The reason I’m writing is I need help. How can I not let these people get to me? They’ve turned some people I really cared about against me and nothing I say matters to anyone because I’m not Mormon.

Emotional Toll

It gets SO incredibly deep but I know your time is precious so I will wrap it up. I have been called names to my face then they turn around and say I’m some evil sociopathic liar who made it up. My husband doesn’t speak to them because he feels they are all so evil but he still has a relationship with his mother and she’s on the fence about me. I think for her it’s easier for her to believe I’m the problem than her perfect children.

Seeking Advice and Support

I just am really in need of some advice on how to handle this, or cope with it. I pray about it and I feel just like when I’m gaining control of my sanity because it REALLY affects me, I get slapped in the face with a new lie people are spreading about me. I really do appreciate any insight you have to offer. Thank you.

Jillian Morris