Live from the Mecca of Mormonism

– Salt Lake City Utah –
This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. –
Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity . . . Face to Face
Show 8 383 Special Guest
Theologian Rob Bowman IRR on the Trinity
February 25th 2014

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.

We thank and praise the true and living God for allowing us to be part of this, His ministry. May He be with you – and us – tonight.

Pride in Celebrity

So much to talk about, so little time. But first things first. I suppose it's human nature for people (of differing faiths) to promote and honor notable figures who believe as they do. Scientology has their Tom Cruise and John Travolta, Muslims have Cat Stevens, and Christians proudly relate to Tim Tebow. We’ve all probably caught ourselves sort of proudly saying at some point in time (and in reference to some person of celebrity) “You know they’re a believer, right?”

In light of the biblical message (where God’s truest heroes seem to be the unnoticed, the unsung, the humble and lowly) this fleshly practice is certainly odd. But some religions do it more openly and aggressively than others. Welcome to Utah Mormonism.

I’ve told this story before but when attending BYU I went into the cafeteria and found a girl in our ward weeping uncontrollably. Upon asking her what was wrong I was told, through tears, of her joy because… because… Robert Redford had joined “the Church.” Like most things LDS her tears were based on myth. But the principle remains. She resonated in a deep deep way to celebrity being (or in that case becoming) LDS.

I had a guy hand me this past week’s Deseret News weekly insert. Here it is (Hold Up magazine insert). Having come from the faith, this insert cover article truly but subtly reflects this pride in celebrity, but it underscores the constant and abiding competition that exists palpably in the faith. I believe it is this incessantly competitive environment that keeps so many of the members knee deep in anti-depressants. Can you blame them?

There you are, a mother of three, divorced, struggling to make ends meet and you’re doing all you can to faithfully serve the institution and you open your church newspaper and read: Olympian Faithful Member Wife and Mother. I wonder what a magazine cover would look like that Jesus would publish?

I mean, who and what would He have featured and highlighted on the cover? In any case, if we adopt the LDS attitude toward things manifested in this cover story, my response would have to be: But she ONLY won the silver?

The Silent Show

Alright, about last week. First, the silent show – what the heck was that all about?

It was a statement, pure and simple. See the Disgracebook pages and blogs and emails were chocked full of literal messages of hate. So I thought, “Let’s see what they say about me if I remain quiet.” For an entire program. I have to admit doing the show was really, really difficult. I wanted so badly to laugh at you jokers out there, and tell our confused supporters how much we appreciate them. All I can say is it will never happen again.

What was the result of the experiment? The attackers continued to attack, saying all sorts of really horrible things about my person. And I guess the point was made… when people, Christian or not, don’t like a person, they will attack and find fault no matter what that person says or does.

The Inquisition

Then on Thursday, we held what we titled “Inquisition 2014” – the Trinity. We held the event for one reason and one reason alone – so I could publicly respond to a number of accusations thrown at me from brothers (and sisters) in the body. That was it. We didn’t do it to dissect the issues, nor was it ever a time to defend my positions through scripture or to debate with my accusers.

We gave my accusers (who had been assailing this ministry and me for quite some time) to publicly say what they thought of me (for the record) and for me to be able to clearly state what I believe as a means to set the record straight. Unlike my more refined brothers and sisters in the Lord who present on Television or in the media, I am constantly learning and growing from each and every situation. Someone once said to me when I was an LDS teenager that had just gotten out of jail: “One thing about you McCraney…”

Market Fluctuations and Ministry Growth

"Is you pay a lot in the tuition of life." No kidding. But amidst it all, we keep trying and we continue to learn who we are in ministry… and who we are not. This is a source of criticism from people who believe I need to take a more professional or refined approach to ministry. Allow an analogy to help illustrate how I view such things – an example taken from some technical analysis of the equities markets.

Most of you know I was a stockbroker for some 12-13 years. Let’s say someone came to me and wanted to invest 100 grand into the stock market – let’s say, for argument's sake, into Coca Cola stock. One of the best ways to explain the movements of most equity markets is to say that, historically speaking, the best growth stocks will constantly fluctuate (move up and down) but over time in an upward trend.

Investment Analogy

Day One

• 100,000.00 initial investment (over time) DETAIL IT ON BOARD
• Conservative, timid investors with low risk tolerance seek stability (DETAIL IT ON BOARD)
• The point is volatility can be upsetting and hard to stomach for some people, but in my opinion, it is a requisite to monumental growth.
• There are safe-bet ministries out there. But the returns – the growth is commensurate to the levels of fluctuation.
• Like it or not, this ministry will fluctuate. As new information and perspectives come to light, and new approaches are required, we will pursue them.
• Sometimes we make mistakes and our value plunges, sometimes we are dead on and our values skyrocket, but we are not in this to maintain security so we can have security or make people feel comfortable or secure in man-made constructs.
• We want truth, because in our opinion, the discovery of it leads to optimal growth (fruit bearing).

So, having said this, let me say a few things relative to the recent Inquisition and some changes that are taking place as a result.

• I hold no animus toward any of the presenters who attended NOR against anyone who presently or will in the future attack me or this ministry. I love them, accept them as my brothers and sisters in Christ, and beg their forgiveness for where I have insulted them.
• We will NOT – from this point forward – respond to any attacks that come from members of the body. ANY. What I mean by this is we will not engage in criticizing ANYONE in the body nor allude to any individual believer, ministry or church that has an issue with us. If someone has issue with me I will meet with them privately but nothing more on air.
• We will discuss practices and doctrine abstracted from the individuals or churches involved but we will refrain from using ANY reference to individuals, ministries or churches ever again.
• We will however continue to unabashedly teach what we believe is biblically supported – without apology.

Biblical Perspective on Debate

Let me sort of wrap this up with a set of passages that we cling to relative to debate. It’s found in 1st Corinthians 8:1-3. What’s happening here is Paul is speaking about different subjects. And he says:

1st Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

We believe that today's church has established itself and fortified itself on theological basis and not on faith and love. We think theology is important – which is why we study the word – but we also know that we could have ALL knowledge, and if we lack in love we have nothing.

Introduction of Rob Bowman

All right. Tell about my meeting with Rob Bowman. Then…

Robert M. Bowman, Jr., has been with IRR since 2008 and is IRR’s Director of Research. Previously he served as Manager of Apologetics & Interfaith Evangelism for the North American Mission Board (2006-2008). For ten years Rob taught graduate courses in apologetics, biblical studies, and religion at Luther Rice University (1994-99) and Biola University (2001-2005). He has also worked with other apologetics and discernment ministries, most notably the Christian Research Institute (1984-91), the Atlanta Christian Apologetics Project (1994-99), and Watchman Fellowship in Alabama (1999-2000). Rob has spoken at over a hundred churches and at some three dozen conferences and debates. He has five years of experience hosting call-in.

Renowned Apologist: Rob Bowman

Radio talk shows focusing on apologetics include the nationally famous Bible Answer Man show. Rob Bowman earned the M.A. in Biblical Studies and Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1981 and completed doctoral studies (all but dissertation) in Apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary. He is currently pursuing the completion of his doctoral dissertation at the South African Theological Seminary. He is the author of over 50 articles (e.g., in the Christian Research Journal, Moody Monthly, Pastoral Renewal, Mission Frontiers, and Journal of Evangelism and Missions) and 13 books pertaining to apologetics, religion, and biblical theology, including two winners of the Gold Medallion Award, An Unchanging Faith in a Changing World (1997) and Faith Has Its Reasons (2001; 2d ed., 2006). His most recent books are Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ (co-authored with Ed Komoszewski, 2007), has received numerous endorsements from such scholars as Ravi Zacharias and Richard Bauckham, and What Mormons Believe (2012).

Rob Welcome – do me a favor – explain the trinity if you would for our audience.

Biblical Revelations

Revelation 1:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 19:11-13
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The Diaglott Interpretation

John 1:1

John 1:14

Dr. Walter Martin

Griesbach – Emphatic Diaglott

Diaglott(i) 1 In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word. 2 This was in a beginning with the God. 3 All through it was done; and without it was done not even one, that has been done. 4 In it life was, and the life was the light of the men; 5 and the light in the darkness shines, and the darkness it not apprehended. 6 Was a man having been sent from God, a name to him John; 7 this came for a witness, that he might testify about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 Not was he the light, but that he might testify about the light. 9 Was the light the true, which enlightens every man coming into the world. 10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew. 11 Into the own he came, and the own him not received. 12 As many as but received him, he gave to them authority children of God to become, to those believing into the name of him; 13 who not from bloods, nor from a will of flesh, nor from a will of a man, but from God were begotten. 14 And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld the glory of him, a glory as of an only-begotten from a father,) full of favor and truth.

Early Christian Creeds

The Apostles’ or Unitarian Creed was the creed used during the first two centuries AD. It was not written by the Apostles, though it bears their name:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord: who was conceived by the holy ghost (spirit), born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell (the grave); the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God, the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

I believe in the holy ghost (spirit); the holy catholic (general) Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Nicene, or Semi-trinitarian Creed, as commonly used today, is a revision of the original creed signed at Nicea in 325 AD. It was revised at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

I believe in One God, the Father Almighty,

The Creed of Belief

Maker of heaven and earth; and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; begotten of his Father before all worlds; God of (or from) God; Light of (or from) Light; Very God of (or from) Very God; begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven; and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the virgin Mary; and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father: and he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

The Holy Ghost

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, (the Lord and Giver of life; who proceedeth from the Father (and the Son); who is with the Father and the son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the prophets).

The Church and Baptism

And I believe [in] one catholic and apostlic [sic] church: I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins: and I look for the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.