Mormonism and Biblical Christianity Face-Off

Live from the Mecca of Mormonism (and the Factory here in Salt Lake City, Utah), this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where Mormonism meets Biblical Christianity Face to Face.

Show 21/351 – Q and A
July 23rd, 2013

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.. We praise the True and Living God for allowing us to participate in this, His ministry. We pray His Spirit upon you – and us – tonight.

Let me take just a minute and thank the Lord and all of you who have stepped up and helped us through prayer and finances and telling others about the ministry. We all do what we can for the cause, and however you have been led to act, we thank you for your willingness. The things you do on behalf of the ministry are VERY VERY important to our longevity. Thank you.

Doctrine Makes the Man

Our theme for the rest of this year is Doctrine Makes the Man. Let me give you a few examples of what I am talking about.

Heard a really insightful story at the gym the other day (yes, I do go to the gym, ya smart alecs). In any case, there is a young woman who works at the gym, and she started asking me about the ministry (she had seen me on YouTube). I explained what we do and why, and she let me know that she is a lesbian and proceeded to tell me about a recent first date she went on with another girl. Another LDS girl.

Her date had recently been called to serve an LDS mission but suddenly backed out and started living the lesbian lifestyle. What was really interesting, however (to me and the girl telling the story), was the high degree of religious arrogance and superiority that remained in the heart of this Mormon lesbian. Apparently, the two girls got to talking about God on their date, and the one telling me the story asked the LDS gal if she believed in Him.

“Oh, for sure,” the lesbian Mormon replied. This response intrigued the girl, and she asked, “Why? How come?” She really wanted to know. She said the Mormon gal sort of altered her delivery and humbly said, “I’ve had a lot of sacred experiences with Him.”

This response honestly intrigued the girl (telling me the story), and it prompted her to ask (in a true spirit of inquiry): “Can you tell me about some of them?” The Mormon lesbian looked at her date and said: “You know some things are just…just too ‘sacred’ to share with those who would never understand them.”

The girl laughed and asked, “Are you saying I wouldn’t get your experience with God?” The Mormon girl said: “I don’t think you could. See, we have this saying in our church that says, ‘Don’t cast your pearls before swine.’”

Religious Superiority and Understanding

“Wait a minute,” the girl telling me the story replied in amazement, “are you saying that I’m a swine?” The Mormon lesbian, with a completely straight face, said, “Yeah.” She ended the story by telling me that what amazed her the most is that after insulting the living heck out of her, the Mormon girl wanted to go out with her again – completely oblivious to the fact she had been so deeply repugnant.

In another true story from the forefront of Mormonism, I have a very good friend who left Mormonism with his wife after a long journey of investigation. This couple and their children all became Bible-believing Christians – especially the mother, who studiously read the Word in women’s groups and her own personal studies. She was a confirmed Christian. I say “was,” because she unexpectedly passed away about two years ago. Her funeral was held in a local Christian church and was attended by hundreds of people.

Two days ago, my friend and her surviving husband attended a family event here in Utah, and he was approached by his sister-in-law, the sister of his departed wife. The sister-in-law, clueless as a headless cat, asked him if she could do his wife’s LDS temple work – that she needed his permission since he was still alive! I mean, this was a devout Christian woman, and yet this LDS sister still cannot fathom that someone else’s beliefs could ever compare (or trump) her own!

For a Mormon to request to do the temple work for a devout Christian is akin to a member of the Nazi party asking a Jew if they could use a photo of their deceased relative in their Nazi museum. It’s completely self-absorbed, self-centered, and clueless to the realities.

The Arrogance and Isolation of LDS Beliefs

These stories perfectly illustrate what the methods Mormonism uses in teaching and keeping their people can produce:

First, an absolute obliviousness to the fact that there is an outside world that thinks, and feels, and see the realms of God differently (even oppositionally) to how they see religious truth! It never ceases to astound me when I see it.

Second, the LDS methods produce an arrogance founded on “BEING Mormon” that overshadows their own individual personal existence. In other words, it allows sinful people to stand on their LDS identity (and their ardent defense of it) without ever considering their own sinful stance before God—especially their pride and arrogance toward others. The fact that the young lesbian woman was completely oblivious to her own arrogance and pride and sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace. evidences this. It’s like she was able to somehow retain her dignity as a faithful LDS devotee even though she was arrogant toward another who she was trying to get into bed!

This arrogant air loomed over the trial of Jody Arias and the Mormon guy who used her before she ripped him up. Same with the woman who had the absolute audacity to ask a widower if she could perform her (phony) religious rite on the woman he loved and a woman who left Mormonism because she LOVED the Lord. The LDS often wonder why they get picked on by others. Again, they typically think it’s because they are so “good” completely missing the fact that it's because they are so blindly oblivious. But maybe something are happening to change all this?

A Shaken Foundation

A recent NY Times article suggests that LDS people (Mormons) are being shaken with the facts about their church history and doctrine. You can read it at:

As a means to fight this exposure to truth, the LDS church is making a formidable presence online. Don’t give up, folks. These are dear souls that have been and are being sold a bill of goods called truth. Expose the lies.

From the Word

Before we get to our subject tonight I want to get back to doing a segment we used to do when we were on local TV called, "From the Word." So here we go:

(RUN “From The Word” intro here)

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER

Well we are halfway through July and I thought I would catch up on some of the questions and insights we receive in phone calls, emails, and face-to-face meetings.

Got this email today from Justin: Who writes

I testify to you that the LDS church is true. You have led many astray, including a former leader (a bishop) of the church. I have watched what you teach and you are wrong. You don’t understand the real truth and you lead many to believe against the true church of the Savior Jesus Christ. I warn that to deceive others is against God. Those who deceive will not be held guiltless at the last day. I testify of this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Addressing Criticism

Our stance on the following topic brought up by Blake D contributed to our getting taken off TV here in Salt Lake. Blake says, in part:

“In many hours of HOTM (and other places I’ve heard you speak) the only point I differ with you on is your stance on Christians not getting involved in fighting abortion.”

“And while I agree that our job (as Christians) is firstly to show people Christ and that he will do the changing from the inside out, I don’t think that this priority requires that we stop caring about and acting against widespread injustice.” (And he says he includes abortion a serious injustice as it is a person exercising unwarranted power over a viable life that is not theirs).

He goes on and makes a number of salient points relative to Christians fighting injustice.

ANSWER

Okay. Let me address this issue using biblical principles of Christianity. First, if you are a Christian who says the Old Testament ways and means are just as viable and applicable to us today, I do not have a leg to stand on. Have at it, but remember, if you are going to use the Old Testament to justify your life you had better live the Old Testament too.

I am a Christian philosopher. All this means is I read the Bible and

Understanding Jesus' Message and the Role of Faith

Follow it to the best of my ability taking context into account. Got that. Now, if you want to do the same, then stay with me.

When Jesus came to earth, He said something interesting in a conversation with Nicodemus. He said in John 3:16-18:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Later, Jesus took to the cross and paid, reconciled, propitiated the world to God, removing all sin, past, present, and future. Got all that?

The Impossibility of Stopping Sin

Now, to fight against sin or to try and stop it (LISTEN) as Christians in the NAME AND CAUSE OF CHRIST is simply ridiculous on a number of accounts:

• It has all been paid for. What applies that payment to a sinner's debt is faith in the Son, not stopping or quelling the sin – it’s faith. So we preach and share Jesus – the focus of our faith. This is the Christian call – this is what Jesus told the disciples to do – to go forth and teach and baptize.
• The world is condemned already. I’m not sure Christians really understand this principle. Everyone who is not saved is condemned – whether they are pro-life or pro-choice. To come out from under condemnation people have to come to faith.
• Sometimes – and this is radical and scary for some of you – it is SIN that leads people who are under condemnation to Christ. They break under its weight and see the need of Him to reconcile their souls which they believe are too far gone. To try and fight and remove and eliminate sin may, in some strange way, remove the very impedes that brings some to Christ. Let me give you an example:

The Role of Sin in Leading to Salvation

There is a young woman who has her whole life lived virtuously but in the heat of passion gets pregnant, and there is no way she thinks she should have that. So she goes to an abortion clinic and walks up, and there are some operation rescue people there who appeal to her otherwise virtuous side and convince her to not have the baby. And she goes home, and confesses to her parents, and they are remorseful over the fact that she’s pregnant but rejoice that she chose to have that baby.

And she is pleased with her choice too. And she bares the baby and raises it. And the child is a joy and goes on to be an astronaut, and the woman holds her head high for her moral decision.

Now, the decision was a good one – abortion is heinous – and the life of the child was a blessing. But let’s also say by her choice, this woman never sees the need for Jesus. After all, SHE chose to do right. And SHE raised that zygote to maturity. And neither she nor the child ever come to faith – are they too good on their own?

Okay.

Now let’s take the same girl and say she goes to the clinic and has the abortion. And it deeply scars her psyche. And she is riddled with guilt and wrestles with the decision for the rest of her life. The future astronaut is dead. But upon her exit, she is met with people – Christian people – who kindly tell her that they love her and that the Lord loves her and that when she reaches low points in her life that He is there, and so are they.

And she leaves and she hits the low points – because research shows the sin is horribly hard on people. But by and through the self-inflicted pain, the woman receives Christ.

Now hear me out – I am NOT advocating abortion here. But I am promoting a different course of action Christians take in the face of it.

We cannot nor will we ever stop sin. Jesus didn’t try and stop sin – He never even speaks of abortion or homosexuality – because like the poor, they

Reflections on Christian Witness

will always be with us. This is a fallen, ugly sinful world and the ONLY solution is Him. Christians – People representing CHRISTIANITY – ought to share Him and Him alone in the face of a world already condemned and in the face of the fact that He has already reconciled it to God.

Hope that makes some kind of sense. But let me wrap this up reading another email from Jeff, which says:

There is a problem when the world knows Christians more for what they are against than what they are for. We sound like Fox news and not Jesus Christ. Let us see our sin and change to give love and witness his miracle in our lives to the world and put away the self-righteous nonsense. Truth is we are no better than anyone with our pride and lack of love. I have seen more error in our churches than at an Ozzy Osbourne rock concert. At least Ozzy followers love each other no matter where they are from, but our local churches want nothing to do with each other. Woe is us if we don't see our own sin. Even better, woe is me. Let my testimony show that our Church buildings today do not reflect Jesus Christ but self-righteousness and pride.

Only a true believer can reflect his true church and not a building made with hands but by the Spirit of Jesus Christ. I love homosexuals, drunkards, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, smokers, potheads, deadheads, and all men as commanded by Jesus Christ.

The question is, "What am I doing for them"? Loving them with the words of the Lord or fighting them for what they are doing wrong. I choose love. This is how you find truth and truth is in Christ.

Love you and like your direction as God moves you. Let's help the lost and forget trying to change those unwilling to listen.

God bless you and your family. Jeff

Christian Meditation

From: Greg H

Subject: Meditation

Shawn:

What is the attitude of Mormons toward meditation? Meditation is obviously an inward look at oneself for meaning. I have noticed that Christians tend to be open to it, at least in theory. However, I doubt the chain of command of the Mormon church would be eager to encourage their flock to look inward. I enjoy your show, although I would say I am an agnostic. Thanks Greg H.

Biblical Perspective

ANSWER

Both the Old and New Testaments speak of mediation – but not very frequently – I think the Old talks about it 15 or 16 times and the New three.

The fact of the matter is that biblical meditation is always focused on external things or issues or concepts and never on the self. Herein lies the difference between eastern metaphysical meditation, which, like our writer Greg mentions, is a focus on finding meaning from within, and a working biblical definition, which is to focus on issues that are without.

For example:

Psalms tells us to meditate on “the statutes, word, creations, and precepts OF God.”

1st Timothy tells us to meditate upon the Word Paul has delivered to Timothy.

But meditation in the sense of looking for meaning inside the self is never recommended biblically. Let me tell you why.

We are fallen vessels. Our will (which can at time be very difficult to tease apart from our flesh) is a very tricky part of the human make-up, and meditating on the self for direction is almost antithetical to what God would have us do, which is to meditate on Him – His will, His ways, His creations, His precepts and laws.

The reason is His ways are above ours, His views are eternal while ours are temporal, and ours are based on what benefits and serves us, while His are what will best serve all involved. To meditate on Him and His ways is action based in faith that His promises are trustworthy. To meditate on self tacitly states the opposite.

As far as the LDS are concerned, meditation (from my experience) was not addressed but they are huge on appealing to the self for direction and support.

A success email from Mike C, 18 years old. It says:

I have been raised a Mormon now for 17 years (I am currently 18) and I came to a point where I felt like something was wrong with what I was following. I loved the community feel of the church but I felt like the doctrine was off. The Bible was not taught to me really and in fact it was shunned as less qualified than

Exploring True Christianity

the Book of Mormon.

(let me say right here that I did not write this not prompt it – it is an email from the hand of a Mormon 18 year old who, without guile, is speaking the facts) He goes on:

“I began to do research into the Mormon church and found a lot of disturbing things. This led to my family and fellow church members really crushing down on me which was and still is hard. However I came upon your show and at first I got a lot of laughs out of the way you handled the self righteous Mormon callers. As I listened though I began to understand more true doctrine and I felt something changing inside me. I started watching your shows more and more while reading the Bible and finally I came upon an episode where you led a man in a prayer of excepting Christ and putting his life in God’s hands.

I said that prayer along with you and him and I felt something I can barely describe. I felt like a weight was lifted from me and I was filled with this feeling of happiness I’ve never had before. It literally brought tears to my eyes. Thank so much for the information on your show. It changed me and I felt that born again feeling. I will never be the same, I have a lot more to learn about true Christianity but thanks again Shawn; and praise god for what He did for me.”

ANSWER

I cannot tell you what a blessing it is to us when we receive emails and cards and calls like this. Thank you Michael, for taking the time. God bless you for you heart and soul for Him.

For those of you out there (and there are a lot who have never been LDS but are presently atheists or agnostics) let me challenge you to reasoning with God. Ready . . .

Resignation from the LDS Church

Subject: Resignation

Message Body:

My question:

I’ve heard that you can now resign from the lds church via email. Do you know anything about this and know if it is more or less hassle free than via mail?

Becky

ANSWER:

Well, Becky, I had a nice conversation with LDS church headquarters today and yes, you can get your name removed via email and this is how you do it.

In your email include your

Full name
DOB
Current full address (so they can send you the follow-up letter)

If you do NOT want ANY contact from any priesthood leader indicate this and say this decision is final. No waiting time necessary.

Then email this to:

MSR-CONFREC@LDSCHURCH.org

The Bishop will fill out a form sign it and have the stake President sign it, and boom its done.

Before I hung up I asked the kind man on the other end if the name is really removed and he said, the person receives “a membership remove status.”

“But the name remains on the records right?” I asked.

“That’s correct,” he replied.

Christian Music Preferences

Let’s open up the phone lines now and then I will cover one more email before we start taking calls.

(801) 590-8413
While the operators are hitting the calls, let me cover one more email: It’s from Dave F on the subject of Christian music and says:

I go to a church in Arkansas (Kris Allen was one of our worship leaders before he did American Idol and he still comes around) we have different campuses in different cities, so I guess it can be called mega-church I’m not sure.

I’ve been going there for almost 8 years and through the friends I’ve made and the pastors there, my walk with the Lord and my relationship with Him has gotten better.

I’ve listened to your message on music and worship (I’ve actually listened to you for 3 years) and I’m curious about your opinion on music from Hillsong United.

That’s the music our worship band plays and there’s also some by Chris Tomlin.

Do you consider that music unacceptable at churches? Keep up the good work Shawn and keep your hand on the plow my brother.

In Christ.

ANSWER

Okay. What I am about to say falls out from the same file as my response to the question about Christians fighting social evil or appealing to temporal methods to morally correct the world IN THE NAME OF CHRIST (and I call this file Christian philosophy).

If we take ten people, each representing a decade of life – so we have babes to ten year olds represented, eleven to twenty year olds, twenty one year olds to thirty

The Volatility of Worship Music

Year olds, etc., etc. we would have ten views on what worship music should be like, sound like, what the words should be about and the volume it should all be played. In other words, the subject is HIGHLY VOLITILE and EXTRAORDINARILY SUBJECTIVE. In addition to the problems that come with all of that music is extremely powerful and works primarily on human emotion. So where churches are able to overcome the volatility and subjectivity of praise music, the emotive power can, has been, and will continue to be abused as a means to draw people in. Now, many many Christians will respond to this observation by saying, “So what? Drawing people into church is a good thing – they just might stay and become great believers etc.” And so they justify the means taken by looking at the results.

Biblical Directives on Church Composition

Here again is where we look to the Bible and the early church. Remember – to become a member of the early church a person would profess their faith, they would be baptized in water as an outward expression of this inward faith, and they would have their very existence put on the chopping block, so to speak. It was a commitment, and there was an accountability that came with it. There was no such thing as “seeker friendly church” because the church was only composed of committed members of the Body of Christ. To permit non-believers into the Body was anathema, friends. For this reason Paul said things like this to the church at Corinth:

2nd Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And this is what he wrote to the church at Ephesus:

Ephesian 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. {disobedience: or, unbelief}
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Back in 1st Corinthians 5:11 Paul writes, again to the church and their gatherings:

“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” The directives go on and on. But hear me clearly – these are directives FOR THE CHURCH because FROM THE START the church was always and only composed of believers! So where we will associate with the lost in the fallen world as a means to reach them and love them and even invite them to visit church, they are NOT part of the body and should not to believe they are until the meet the same “entrance requirements” (for lack of a better description) all believers assume – so they can support and love each other from an equal basis and similar footing.

The Impact on Praise Music

How does all of this relate to praise music? In more ways than you might imagine. First, the emotive power of music – especially when abused to spiritually manipulate unsuspecting people – can lead to a great number of false conversions, where people think they are Christian because they love what everyone calls the worship.

Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
In the small but cohesive Mormon community where he grew up, Hans Mattsson was a solid believer and a pillar of the church. He followed his father and grandfather into church leadership and finally became an “area authority” overseeing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout Europe. When fellow believers in Sweden first began coming to him with information from the Internet that contradicted the church’s history and teachings, he dismissed it as “anti-Mormon propaganda,” the whisperings of Lucifer. He asked his superiors for help in responding to the members’ doubts, and when they seemed to only sidestep the questions, Mr. Mattsson began his own investigation. But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon

Challenges and Doubts within the Mormon Church

and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble. Around the world and in the United States, where the faith was founded, the Mormon Church is grappling with a wave of doubt and disillusionment among members who encountered information on the Internet that sabotaged what they were taught about their faith, according to interviews with dozens of Mormons and those who study the church. “I felt like I had an earthquake under my feet,” said Mr. Mattsson, now an emeritus area authority. “Everything I’d been taught, everything I’d been proud to preach about and witness about just crumbled under my feet. It was such a terrible psychological and nearly physical disturbance.” Mr. Mattsson’s decision to go public with his disaffection, in a church whose top leaders commonly deliberate in private, is a sign that the church faces serious challenges not just from outside but also from skeptics inside. Greg Prince, a Mormon historian and businessman in Washington who has held local leadership positions in the church, shares Mr. Mattsson’s doubts. “Consider a Catholic cardinal suddenly going to the media and saying about his own church, ‘I don’t buy a lot of this stuff,’ ” Mr. Prince said. “That’s the level we’re talking about here.” He said of Mr. Mattsson, “He is, as far as I know, the highest-ranking church official who has gone public with deep concerns, who has had a faith crisis and come forward to say he’s going to talk about it because maybe that will help us all to resolve it.”

Historical Context and Modern Skepticism

Every faith has its skeptics and detractors, but the Mormon Church’s history creates special challenges. The church was born in America only 183 years ago, and its founder and prophet, Joseph Smith, and his disciples left behind reams of papers that still exist, documenting their work, exposing their warts and sometimes contradicting one another. “The Roman Catholic Church has had 2,000 years to work through the hiccups in its history,” said Terryl L. Givens, a professor of English, literature and religion at the University of Richmond and a Mormon believer. “Mormonism is still an adolescent religion.” Mr. Givens and his wife, Fiona, recently presented what they called “Crucible of Doubt” sessions for questioning Mormons in England, Scotland and Ireland. Hundreds attended each event. “Sometimes they are just this side of leaving, and sometimes they are simply faithful members who are looking for clarity and understanding to add to their faith,” said Mr. Givens, who hosted a similar discussion in July in Provo, Utah, and has others planned in the United States. The church is not sponsoring the sessions, Mr. Givens said, but local bishops give their permission.

Responses from Church Leadership

Eric Hawkins, a church spokesman, said that “every church faces this challenge,” adding, “The answer is not to try to silence critics, but to provide as much information and as much support as possible to those who may be affected.” Mr. Hawkins also said the Mormon Church, which counts 14 million members worldwide, added about one million members every three years. But Mr. Mattsson and others say the disillusionment is infecting the church’s best and brightest. A survey of more than 3,300 Mormon disbelievers, released last year, found that more than half of the men and four in 10 of the women had served in leadership positions in the church. Many said they had suffered broken relationships with their parents, spouses and children as a result of their disbelief. The study was conducted by John Dehlin, a Ph.D. student in psychology at Utah State University and the founder of “Mormon Stories,” a podcast of interviews with scholars and church members, many critical toward the church. Some church leaders are well aware of the doubters in their midst. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, who serves in the church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the governing body just below the three-member First Presidency), said in April while addressing the church’s semiannual general conference in Salt Lake City: “Please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood and resolved. They do, and they will.”

Mr. Mattsson served as a young missionary in England; his wife, Birgitta, is a convert. They raised their five children in the Mormon Church in Sweden, which dates to the 1850s and has about 9,000 members. He and his twin brother, Leif, both rose through the ranks of leadership, and in 2000, Hans Mattsson became

Mr. Mattsson's Journey and Questions about Faith

The first Swede ever to be named an area authority (he served until 2005, when he had heart surgery), Mr. Mattsson worked in technology marketing during the week and traveled widely throughout Europe on the weekends, preaching and organizing the believers. “I was just in a bubble, and we felt so happy,” Mr. Mattsson said.

The first doubts filtered up to him from members who had turned to the Internet to research a Sunday school talk. There are dozens of web sites other than the Mormons’ own that present critical views of the faith. The questions were things like:

• Why does the church always portray Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from golden plates, when witnesses described him looking down into a hat at a “peep stone,” a rock that he believed helped him find buried treasure?

• Why were black men excluded from the priesthood from the mid-1800s until 1978?

• Why did Smith claim that the Book of Abraham, a core scripture, was a translation of ancient writings from the Hebrew patriarch Abraham, when Egyptologists now identify the papyrus that Smith used in the translation as a common funerary scroll that has nothing to do with Abraham?

• Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma?

About that last question, Mr. Mattsson said, “That was kind of shocking.”

Seeking Answers from Church Authorities

Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask.

Mr. Mattsson refused to identify the apostle, but others said it was Elder L. Tom Perry, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Perry, now 91, confirmed through a church spokesman that he did visit a branch in Sweden with skeptical members, but said he recalled satisfying their questions with a letter written by the church’s history department. That encounter is what really set off Mr. Mattsson’s doubts.

He began reading everything he could. He listened to the “Mormon Stories” podcasts. And he read “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling,” a biography by Richard Lyman Bushman, a historian at Columbia University and a prominent Mormon. Mr. Bushman said in a telephone interview: “You would be amazed at the number of Mormons who don’t think Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It just wasn’t talked about. It was never mentioned in church periodicals. That was policy.”

Transparency and Historical Accuracy

In the last 10 or 15 years, he said, “the church has come to realize that transparency and candor and historical accuracy are really the only way to go.” The church has released seven volumes of the papers of Joseph Smith and published an essay on one of the most shameful events in church history, the Mountain Meadows massacre, in which church leaders plotted the slaughter of people in a wagon train in 1857. But the church has not actively disseminated most of these documents, so when members come across them on web sites or in books, Mr. Bushman said, “it’s just excruciating.”

“Sometimes people are furious because they feel they haven’t been told the truth growing up,” he said. “They feel like they were tricked or betrayed.”

Mr. Mattsson said that when he started sharing what he had learned with other Mormons in Sweden, the stake president (who oversees a cluster of congregations) told him not to talk about it to any members, even his wife and children. He did not obey: “I said to them, why are you afraid for the truth?”

Continuing the Discussion

He organized a discussion group in Sweden, and more than 600 participated, he said. In 2010, the church sent two of its top historians, Elder Marlin K. Jensen and Richard E. Turley Jr., to allay the Swedes’ concerns. They had a remarkably frank and sometimes testy exchange, especially about Smith and polygamy.

The Mattssons have tried other churches, but they are still attached to their Mormon faith. A few weeks ago, they moved to Spain for health reasons, they said. They left behind some family members who are unhappy with Mr. Mattsson’s decision to grant interviews to The New York Times and to

The "Mormon Stories" Podcast

"I don't want to hurt the church," Mr. Mattsson said. "I just want the truth."