Understanding Material Differences in Religious Practice

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

Program Information

Show 4 480 Follow-up to Signs, Miracles and Wonders with Bob Griffin
January 26th, 2016
Our prayer tonight will be given by ____________________________.

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A couple of things. First, we have been talking about The End of Material ReligionA fulfilled system of temples, rituals, and laws—replaced by direct spiritual relationship., which we will continue with next week. We have an associated workbook we will send to you if you ask. Simply write to shawn@alatheamedia.com, and we’ll send you a PDF.

If you want a hard copy, you can pick one up here at our studio/church OR you can send in a donation of some sort – wool, second harvest fruit, whatever – and we’ll mail you one. All we ask is IF you approve of the contents of the booklet (in the PDF form) that you then forward it to other truth-seekers and then ask them to do the same.

Additionally, consider the content available on our websites at www.hotm.tv and www.campuschurch.tv. Books, the word set to music, films about teen sex, archived shows or verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. teachings. That’s www.hotm.tv and www.campuschurch.tv.

Finally, I had the opportunity to be interviewed by Bishop Earl of exmormon fame. The third installment will be available this Thursday, and all three will then be archived on his site at www.exmormonfiles.com. We had a great and relaxing time, so consider that content if you wish.

Material Religious Practices

Over the course of ministry, many LDS people have sincerely wanted to know how Mormonism differs materially from other people who claim Christ. Doctrines are one thing, but actual day-to-day material differences can be difficult to prove. I recently came upon an example. Tami, a sister in the Lord discovered this document in her deceased father’s files. It’s a letter dated April 13th, 1918, and it was sent out from the LDS Office of the Presiding Bishopric.

Let me read/summarize it for you.

(Shawn summarizes from the letter here)

Then point out the revelatory facts from the letter which include:

• That such a letter would be sent out in the first place.
• That the list shows who was the largest of the over 1000.00 donators to the church that year in chronological order, and that
• The number one giver in the church in 1918 was a man named Charles Nibley. Why would this be important? Because it was none other than Charles Nibley who authored the letter to send out!

Here is one material difference between the true follower of Christ and those who claim to be – the need to be known and seen for what they do, what they give, and how much. And with that, let’s get into the content of our show tonight. I think it is very important.

Challenges in Ministry and Outreach

I’ve said this before, but I am convinced that when a person is in Christian ministry and outreach, there is a constant choice – choose to reaffirm the “status quo, support the system and echo what has been deemed acceptable among the masses and powers that be . . . or . . . try to improve upon things as a means to grow, which means change, which also means loss, which ultimately means pain.

In our outreach for truth, the pains we experience are the result of:

• losing personal and doctrinal prejudice,
• losing traditional approaches and the comfort of standard opinions, and
• the pains of seeing accepted modes of operation fade.

It has been said that what people fear is not change but loss. For example, I would suggest that pastors and churches are not necessarily resistant to change or changing. If a suggested change could guarantee making a pastor more effective while increasing financial support, most would readily accept whatever changes were required.

However, if there is an associated risk of loss, and if growth cannot be guaranteed, and if loss could be the end result of altering the accepted course, then there is almost always a resistance to change – again, NOT because of the fear of change but due to the fear of loss.

Fear of Loss in Organized Religion

For this reason, most people who are ensconced in an organized religion – Catholic, LDS, whatever – even when they discover unspoken ugly truths of the faith, they will remain – fearing the associated losses that come if they challenge the faith and depart, like the –

• Loss of all the years they attended.
• Loss of all the money donated.
• Loss of family and friends still inside, and
• The loss of established beliefs and traditions, the loss of a place to belong, and the loss of a system for knowing God.

And on and on and…

The Challenges of Change and Leadership

Change frightens the HELL out of most people because of the known losses and more terrifying the potential unknown losses that may occur in the face of them. And when people are terrified, they react in all sorts of ways – many of them very unpleasant. So, we see that it is very difficult to get people to change AND those who are promoting change often become a target for the wrath of those resisting it.

In their book, Leadership on the Line, Harvard Professors Ron Heifitz and Martin Linsky write:

“to lead is to live dangerously because when leadership counts, when you lead people through difficult change, you challenge what people hold dear – their daily habits, tools, loyalties and ways of thinking – with nothing more to offer perhaps than possibility. Moreover, leadership often means exceeding the authority you are given to tackle the challenge at hand. People push back when you disturb the personal and institutional equilibrium they know. And people resist in all kinds of creative and unexpected ways that can get you taken out of the game: pushed aside, undermined, or eliminated.”

A New Perspective on Christian Faith

We are in the midst of deconstructing what has been generally accepted as the Objective Christian Faith. I take this very seriously. It is my life. And in this light, we have been openly, honestly, even aggressively pushing for people to consider abandoning all the established elements of “Objective Material Religion” and to fully embrace what we are calling a Subjective Relationship with God through Christ.

It is one thing to suggest this, and offer what I think are some pretty valid arguments to support the position, but it is an altogether different matter to actually live it. I discovered how hard this is to do it firsthand when we had our guest, Bob Griffin with us last week. If you didn’t watch the show, what Bob brought, whether he was aware of this or not, was an opportunity for all of us to test our allegiance (and/or our resistance) to the Subjective approach.

Bob accomplished this for us by openly and honestly sharing the way He relates to God as a follower of Christ. Did you catch that word I used to describe Bob? I described him as a “follower of Christ.” And having met with him and talked with him for over 90 minutes prior to the show, I maintain, at least from what Bob shared, that Bob believes that a man was born into the world of a virgin, he believes that He was the Son of God, he believes that He lived a perfect life of obedience to the Father and fulfilled the Law, He believes He died on the cross for the sins of the world, and he believes Jesus resurrected from the grave only to ascend into the heavens to the right hand of the Father.

From what I can tell, all those beliefs place Bob squarely in the realm of a Christian. But from what I heard and received as a result of Bob’s visit with us, these things were not enough for some of you. It appears some of you wanted Bob to conform to all of your expectations of what a believer should be, what believers should say, and what believers do. Additionally, in the areas where Bob diverted away from your expectations of “normalcy” or “heterodoxy,” some of you got downright mean, accusatory, and even condemning. Some instantly became Bob’s judge, jury and executioner.

Understanding Resistance to Subjective Christianity

Let’s talk about this for a minute. And in so doing, the first thing I want to make clear is I get these reactions. I understand where they come from, why they exist, and the thinking behind the reactions. I’ve assigned myself judge, jury, and executioner to people for decades – so I not only get it, I get it because I am guilty. It is human nature to want to kill what we don’t understand, and we malign things that rub us the wrong way.

But we will never support or be in a position to actually embrace what we’re calling “Subjective ChristianityA direct, personal relationship with God—free from institutional authority, guided by personal relationship, faith and agape love.” if we refuse to allow (LISTEN) . . . all people the support of our love as they freely experience and express a subjective approach to God through Christ. One of the most difficult things about religious belief is it tends to make every person an expert and a zealot because the beliefs are so close to the heart. And in the state of our zealous expertise, we tend to automatically reject and even kill those

Embracing Different Approaches to Faith

who differ with us.

It’s not of God. I am convinced that God has purposefully arranged the faith so that it would be an open range and where those who truly seek Him would learn to embrace all who step foot on the prairie land in search of truth. But the natural reaction is name calling, character assassination, and questioning those who differ with our ways, honesty, or integrity.

Again, I have been critical of everything with which I did not agree – you’ve watched me assume the role of zealous expert over the years. But by the grace of God, I’ve also seen the error of my ways, and realize that if we don’t get off this course, then the faith we love will not only continue to lose ground, it will more and more fail to withstand the assaults coming in against it from the secular realm. And because I’ve yet to see a solution that trumps the Subjective Approach to the faith, we will both promote it and try our best to live it.

Acceptance and Understanding

In talking with Bob, I made it very, very clear that I could not relate to his views or ways or his experiences. I probably never will. But we must respectfully allow all people to worship God or not – and to love them in whatever way they have adopted. Think about it! Who am I to say that Bob’s views and claims were inferior to mine? Do I know that Bob is a charlatan, or a false prophet, or a schizophrenic as some believe? Perhaps the better question is, does it even matter what I think I know about Bob? Can God use him? Does God use Bob? Am I Bob’s judge? Am I to insert myself between Bob and God and make assessments on his honesty or integrity? If I do, I am no better than any material religionist who believes they have the authority to govern the earthly church and all that people believe and practice.

Such things smack of religious attitudes that Jesus came to destroy. When we think about it, if we are going to take the Bible at face value and apply it to our day, what Bob claimed to experience is quite Biblical. Prophecy, deliverance, dreams, visions, tongues, healings. So there’s that. It takes a great deal of hubris to believe we are able to discern a religious con from someone who is merely convinced. So while we might not relate or agree with Bob and his ways we need – we need, as a people who walk by faith – to allow the Bob’s of this world to be who they are in Christ as much as we want to be who we are in Him as well.

The Challenge of Growth

It was interesting, but after the show with Bob, I had a couple of people come up and tell me, with the purest of countenances and kindest of spirits, that they related deeply to Bob and his experiences and could not relate to me and my views in the least. They were very polite and humble, and I believed them. This is what I am trying to point out – just because some see the world as purple does not mean others don’t see it as green – and in the end isn’t it up to God to discern the heart?

Then there was talk that Bob was sick – mentally ill. Could be. I am. Most of us are to some extent or another. But again, this does not mean that God cannot or will not use the mentally ill to reach those that nobody else can! Remember, even Jesus’ own family thought He was mad.

(Beat)

Are you getting dragged out of your comfort zone? Good. Because I don’t believe truth seekers have a right to be comfortable. In my estimation, God’s desire is that those who are His GROW, and growth always means change, and change means loss, and loss means pain, and pain means discomfort. Don’t like it? Do something else with your time. You have that right. Pursue God through other supports or ministries or approaches. There are plenty of religious people who would love to nurse your prejudices.

Then there were the railing accusations that came against both me and Bob. I am the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to railing accusations – but I am really

The Circumstances of Faith

Why do we find ourselves trying to repent?

We read in scripture that when Michael the Archangel was in a dispute with the devil over the Body of Moses, he refused to say anything negative to Satan but only said: “The Lord rebuke thee.” If the faith is subjective, and we are all responsible for what we choose to believe, then none of us has the right to rebuke anyone for their approach to the faith. We trust God will do the rebuking. We are pushing for love. We can differ, but love and support is the modus operandi of subjective Christianity. If it can’t be had, the approach will fail.

But I got the impression that some viewers out there did not approve of Bob or of my response to him – apparently, they believe they possess the power and right to disapprove. Let me share some of an email we received from a man named Mark who chose to provide me with an unsolicited review of the program.

The email begins by suggesting that I didn’t show up to host the show but that an imposter was hosting the show in my place. After making a case for this, Mark wrote:

The next 5 minutes are taken up by Bob giving us a most bizarre background story that borderlines on the ridiculous. He tells us he had a dream when he was 12, but only remembered it 17 years later at the age of 29 – during which time he admitted to being a drug addict, a drug dealer, a "hardcore alcoholic" and had 42 convictions under his belt for which he served time "in and out of jail".

Subjective Experiences and Intriguing Claims

I remain confused as to why Mark reminded us of these things, but the intimation seems to be one that is aimed at diminishing Bob’s character. Bob’s admissions were admittedly unique, but honestly, almost everything everyone says or claims in the faith is unique in some way or another.

For an example, as cynical as I am, when I was five, I saw a dead woman come out of the bathroom down the hall from my room. I hate to admit this, because I personally have a hard time believing it myself, let alone other stories like it, and had I not experienced it myself, I would be even more resistant to such claims – but nothing and nobody on earth can convince me that I did not see what I saw.

Are there charlatans and cons and dubious claims out there? Many. But the point I’m trying to make is we aren’t equipped (in most cases) to rightfully either receive or reject such claims – so all we are left with is choosing to give people the benefit of the doubt and support them in their right to pursue God as they see fit, and honestly let Him do the assessments of their pursuits at the end of their lives. All other approaches will wind up with the participants casting railing accusations at others.

Handling Differing Beliefs

Mark goes on and calls Bob and his stories, “Cringeworthy”, “trippy dreams”, and seems to question Bob's claims to “prophesy,” “healing the sick,” “speaking in tongues,” and so on. At this point, Mark reports that I say to Bob: "We are gonna differ on some stuff, We are gonna radically differ." But complains that I never make good on the implied confrontation but instead just smile and nod at all the “ridiculous things” Bob claims.

So let me invite you to stand in my shoes. Understand, I do not agree with MOST of what people say about almost everything, but I do love them and try to accept their peculiar ways.

And so someone comes up and says:

“I believe Jesus is coming back soon – like in months!” What would you say to them?

Or they say, “My grandma was healed of cancer by a faith healer in Texas!” How would you respond?

Or they say, “I had a vision of Jesus last night and He told me to run into the light.”

Or “Satan entered my cousin and his eyes turned green.”

Or “I believe God put every animal in the world by twos into an ark then flooded the entire earth.”

Or “I’m a Christian and I embrace evolution!” How do you respond?

Can you see how the lists of claims are endless and all provide an opportunity to either love and unite or ridicule and divide?

Let me tell you something, people believe and do what they believe God “wants them to believe and do” and all the arguments in the world do very little to change minds that are set in stone.

So,

The Call for Unity and Love

Like our writer here, we can believe it is our job to add to the cacophony of dissenting voices, because, by golly, we must stand for our views in all times in all places OR we can realize the fact that we are always going to differ with other people who LOVE the Lord but we must always choose to let love abide.

Mark then goes into blasting Bob’s story of putting mud in the eyes of a kid with impaired vision and says: “No details about the actual visual impairment, or the degree of impairment in either eye. No reminder that human vision changes when going from light to dark to light again (where our eyes are at their most sensitive for a temporary period of time). No update on whether the boy is still "healed". Crucially: No challenge from Shawn. No robust exchange of views.

This is what appears to disturb Mark the most about my guest Bob – that I didn’t rip into him and his claims. And at this juncture, I have to make some things perfectly clear for guys like Mark who haven’t yet realized it yet.

The Shift in Perspective

Those days are over – and if you are looking for me to rip into faith healers, legalists, materialists, name it and claim it, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants or any other stance Christians around the world take in their respective walk you will be waiting a long time – so you might as well spend your time watching Jerry Springer.

There are several reasons for this change in me.

First, it accomplishes very little (if anything) except puffing up the flesh, ego and mind of the person “who attacks best.”

Secondly, it’s a very slippery slope to stand upon as the practice quickly becomes a game of “everyone needs to do and believe as I say,” rather than allowing all people to pursue God in Spirit and Truth. Third, it does nothing to unify the body but only serves to divide and drive people who love God further apart. But most importantly, it is counter to the things Jesus promoted when He walked the earth.

The Beatitudes

Listen to the beatitudes and what Jesus says – they’re quite revealing about the heart of those whom Jesus commends to heaven. Think about Bob as I read them. Think about attitudes we nurture that are condemning and mean and reproaching:

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Let me tell you how this ministry began – it began with a large and growing audience of people who loved watching me give the Mormons what for – and the more I gave it to them, the more they loved me. When I pointed the barrel at their own faith we lost that fervent frothy audience who wanted blood because the bloodletting of the Mormons was over – and therefore they were over.

But people gathered around who were angry with Christianity, people pissed at the institution of religion. This group was much smaller than our initial audience who loved when I bashed on the Mormons but it was also thriving. But in reality many of them were of the same ilk – they wanted blood, and if not for the LDS then from the evangelicals. But I was growing in the faith, and I came to see that this approach was just as ineffective to creating any lasting change as my initial approach to the LDS.

And my eyes opened – and I saw the only viable solution to the mess labeled organized religion was to pursue God as each individual sees fit and to love each other along the way. Period.

Marks email raged on, stating that he “feels sorry for anyone who accepted Bob’s prophesies,” that what he was.

Understanding Different Perspectives

Witnessing certainly wasn’t, “Heart of the Matter,” and that the show was nothing more than “an infomercial for Bob and an insult to anyone with a double-digit IQ.” And the vitriol went on and on and on – because that is what hubris, and vitriol, and judgment do – it lives on and on and on. It’s the antithesis to looking in the mirror and being poor in Spirit, to mourning, to being meek, to thirsting after righteousness, to being merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, or accepting persecution.

Don’t get me wrong – I openly and readily accept those who claim Christ that live in the world of accusation, judgment and objective religious demands. But I cannot relate or agree with them – any more than I related with or agreed with Bob.

But this is NOT the point is it? Can we get past making agreement on matters important and instead make loving each other as we are paramount? We can only hope.

Listener Interactions

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

Appreciating the Greek Lessons

Vikkie Smith vikkieith@aol.com Just to say thank you for the Greek lessons.. Fantastic. Brilliantly taught! Can you let Ty (sorry don't know how he spells his name) know that not only is his teaching brilliant, but that I have a son with Autism who is studying ancient civilizations (think all things old and Greek) and I have had the pleasure to sit with him whilst we learn together! Much appreciated not only for my own learning but from our family's point of view. Thank you!

PITCH THE GREEK AND EXPLAIN THIS TOUCHED MY HEART OF HEARTS – TO EDUCATE

We continue to receive emails from people who believe that I am actively engaged in the Mormon/Christian debate and approach me from that angle.

This comes from Gavriel in Russia who asks: “Sean did you start recognizing the true church of JC, bearing its name…”

Historical Context

Obviously Gavriel has accepted the line from her own religion that the Church of Jesus Christ ought to bear His name in the title. I doubt that Gavriel realizes that:

- This idea originated out of the Reformation movement from men like Alexander Campell and is not original to Joseph Smith or Mormonism.

I also doubt that Gavriel realizes that when we look at the New Testament the churches were known and called by their location – like the Church at Corinth or the Church at Ephesus – with nothing said about having Jesus’ name in the title of the gathering. Oh, the ease with which man can create myth!

Questions and Reflections

Shawn, I recently watched the Ex-Mormon Foundation's video on "Shadow Mormons." Last night in a men's study meeting, the old ichthys that Christians used to safely identify themselves was brought up. Today I had a thought. What if Shadow Mormons had a symbol to safely identify themselves to other members? I thought about this, maybe a symbol from the temple, but not all exmormons would know it. The fish or cross might stand out. But I wonder if you are aware of any symbol that is being used or might be suggested. I have a feeling that if the practice was borrowed from persecuted Christians, a great number of LDS might find out that they are not alone in their local wards and stakes. Perhaps just mentioning you, HOTM, or Grant Palmer already serves this purpose, but I thought I'd ask.

Thank you for taking time to read my email. I'll be sure to have you and HOTM on my prayer white-board! God bless you!

Joshua Nephi

Shawn, My wife and I have really enjoyed watching Heart of the Matter on You Tube trying to catch up with past years. I did hear you read my email on Jan 5, I noted you got a chuckle on "I never did anything" I put it in there because I realize how vain I was thinking it made me better for some reason. Thanks for opening my eyes on that and many other things.

Listening to the series on Has Jesus returned, I completely think that the apostles were talking about what was happening and going to happen in their time not 2000 years later. I have always thought that and I never could come to terms with how people try to fit in with our lives today. My question is, why is there writings on Jesus’s return? I would think it would have been a hot topic at that time.

I have heard you mention the name ‘LeBaron’ on yours show, I am a LeBaron and my father is Ross Wesley LeBaron and my uncle is Ervil LeBaron. I have quite a history in my family on FLDS though I…

Reflections on Faith and Christianity

I was raised LDS by my mother and the Mormon church because my father left when I was 7 years old to meet Adam and Eve and they were going to be taken him in a flying soccer to live with God. My father died a bum that lived on the streets in West Jordan Utah still waiting for Adam and Eve to pick him up. I can say I have seen a lot in my life and have been blessed by God throughout my life for reasons I do not know.

Your show deals with The Heart of the Matter but it is really it's THE HEART THAT MATTERS. May God bless you in all that you do.

Ron LeBaron

A Journey to Christianity

From: Erik Jerde
Subject: Thank you! and church question

Message Body:

Mr. McCraney,

First, let me simply say THANK YOU! I am 41 years of age, proud father of 2 boys and loving husband to an amazing wife, and have searched high and low for the real heart and spirit of Christianity. It wasn't until my mother recommended I listen to your show that I truly feel as though I found it.

I am also a former Mormon, though I have been inactive since I was about 19 years old. My mom is Mary Christensen, who, along with my deceased father, started New Order Mormon in 2004.

When I hear you speak, it's like I can feel the spirit move in your mind and heart. You understand what the New Testament is, its context, its message. My wife and I have always been what I term "organic" Christians, i.e., Christians who are doers of the word, not mere hearers. We both desire a fellowship of other Christians who TRULY act like Christians in their hearts, not just outward formula and appeals to authority, who truly love Jesus Christ and his example of love and goodness.

Before I get too long-winded here, I have a question; I live in Kalispell, MT (the Flathead area) and am desperately looking for a church to attend that has the same spirit of Christianity as your ministry. Do you have any recommendations for a good church up here? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Shawn, I feel that God has truly called you on a mission to turn hearts and souls to him in joy. May he always keep you and bless you and your family.

Erik J.

Insights from Mexico

From: ernesto solorzano
Subject: mormonism

Message Body:

Thanks to your show. Well, you may or may not know, but we are poor here in Mexico, as opposed to most in the states. It took me about a year to save so that I could purchase this device, and I feel ever so guilty that I enjoy your shows and can't donate. But I thank Shawn for his truthfulness; it saved me. I was about to join LDS. If big companies would train salespeople like LDS trains their elders, well, sales would go up a thousand percent. I thank the Lord and Shawn for opening my eyes before I made that big mistake. THANK YOU.