Investigating Christian Truth-Claims
This program is being presented in an effort to investigate all Christian truth-claims by comparing them with a contextual understanding of the Bible and its original intent. We are not interested in supporting or promoting any tradition, person, practice, culture or denomination that stands contrary to this reasonable and contextual approach to scripture. Nothing is so sacred that it is exempt from scrutiny. Nothing so popular and accepted that it won’t be discarded if found wanting and unreasonable. This is Heart of the Matter… where we make every effort to worship God in Spirit and Truth.
Sola Scriptura
Show 9 435 Sola Scriptura part I
March 3rd 2015
Live from Salt Lake City, Utah. This is Heart of the Matter – Where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m your host, Shawn McCraney.
Had a Pastor and Friend out of Washington State – Pastor Van from City Life Church email with some questions. Let’s read through them because he’s a seeker of truth. He writes:
Hey brother Shawn,
As I follow your messages weekly, I would like to throw some input into them with some questions. You are certainly welcome to do with whatever want with the questions–obviously I appreciate your heart to seek the truth.
- Concerning the body of Christ, where you read out of Corinthian's last night. I teach that Paul was talking about a local body (he clearly wrote to a local physical church) and spiritual world wide body. (I would agree that he clearly wrote to the physical church of his day – but I’m not sure Paul knew he was writing to the spiritual body around the world. There isn’t much indication of this from the narrative).
He continues –
“For me at least, it is not hard at all to read into that the body of Christ was clearly made up of local bodies but all of us have become a part of the worldwide spiritual body of Christ through our baptism into the spirit – first Corinthians 12:13 which you read.
This is an important point. It is my opinion that the apostles were writing to the local churches (known by their geographical location) at that time and that those churches were in fact one. I also believe that this is the Church Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against AND it is the Church Jesus came to save from destruction in 70 AD. The apostles writings support this claim exhaustively. Since then, the apostolic writings are certainly to the SPIRITUAL BODY of BELIEVERS but could not possibly have line by line physical application not only because times and cultures are gone but because that age has been wrapped up.
Local and Worldwide Church Body
The pastor continues:
Without having the spiritual Authority, spiritual control, and all the isms (that you and I would agree on that should not be in the body of Christ) can you see the viewpoint that the apostles wrote to local church bodies and worldwide spiritual body?
I do – the local bodies were one church physically and historically but I see very little evidence that they knew they were writing to a worldwide spiritual body out in the future. Then His first POINT
“I agree with you that our current church culture should be able to challenge, discuss, and debate any pastors teaching on any biblical subject. That should be welcome inside any church.
POINT 2
I also agree with you about the Protestant Reformation – that a lot of it was actually evil and not godly at all. I have a very difficult time adhering to any of the Reformationist because of the evil they did in the name of Jesus.
QUESTION 2
Can the local church body and world wide church body happily exist together by learning to put love over all isms? I believe it can.
Pastor Van
City Life Church
Teaching Doctrinal Liberty
I think it can but the only way it will ever have a chance of succeeding is when the local brick and mortars freely teach the doctrines and practice the practices they want but accept other doctrinal positions and practices of any others so long as the biblical Gospel is embraced. In other words, no division OVER doctrine or praxis should ever exist so long as the Good news is embraced. This allows for denominational distinctions to exist for those who agree with them but that love and liberty will freely reign and rule among all gospel proponents.
Thanks Pastor Van, and with that, how about a moment from the Word?
RUN “From the Word Intro” here please
Last week I came into the studio after the show and some brothers and
The Sway of Money in the Church
A discussion among sisters arose concerning my strong stance against the influence of money in the church. One longtime fan of the show, Larry, highlighted that sometimes members of the congregation desire more comfort in their church and are willing to finance it. When this occurs, and the congregation demands improvements like a better building with cushioned seats or air conditioning, the pastor is then compelled to collect funds to cover these expenses. Some believe I might be too critical of pastors who, at times, are not building personal empires but are merely fulfilling the desires of the people.
I admit to being heavy-handed on matters of reform, a trait that is deeply ingrained, whether it be right or wrong. I draw from two elements from my former life — reading Machiavelli and studying Fashion Design.
Fashion Design and Trends
In the world of fashion, trends progress steadily until they reach an extreme, at which point they undergo a dramatic shift. For instance, skirt lengths may start at the ankle, move over time to mid-calf, then the knee, above the knee, and to mid-thigh, eventually reaching an extreme of almost crotch length. Once such an extreme is reached, it does not revert but often returns to the other end of the spectrum — ankle length — much like it was in the 1970s. Radical change is noticeable in these shifts.
Machiavelli's Wisdom
Nicolo Machiavelli, in "The Prince," offers advice for those who overtake another country. He suggests two approaches to governance: do nothing at all, as this will endear people to you, or completely reform everything, eliminating dissenters so people fear you. A balanced approach, he cautions, will lead to failure.
We recently had a caller refer to Jesus' encounter with Pilate, where Jesus confessed to being a King, stating, "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." (John 18:37) He further clarified that "If His Kingdom was of this world then His servants would fight." This teacher made clear through his teachings that His Kingdom is spiritually based, operated, and not physical.
Spiritual Teachings on the Kingdom
Jesus explained, as recorded in Luke 17:20-21, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Paul reinforced this in Romans 14:17 by saying, "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Moreover, 1st Corinthians 4:20 states, "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." On a similar note, 1st John 2:16 reminds us that, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
Remember Jesus' words in Matthew 6:25-33? He advises, "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."
Spiritual Emphasis Over Physical
If God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God (with the implication being that these other things ARE NOT part of the KINGDOM of GOD), and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
In order to illustrate the utter fail the church is experiencing from believing that the Body is physical, and that Pastors need to kow-tow to the congregates demands the approach and attitude has to be drastic. Like John the Baptist coming out of the desert wearing really uncomfortable clothing in the face of the religious leaders fine robes, or eating only locusts and honey when they dined sumptuously.
Are believers today demanding luxury and comfort? You bet they are. But the shepherds of the flock need to be willing to stand up to their cries and point them to the spiritual kingdom rather than placate their demands for comfort.
The New Wave of Believers
Before we pray I want to read another email we received from Australia. From Mark. It says: They say there's a new age coming and that may be so but far more important than that there's a New Wave coming. There's a swell of people who love God and love their fellow man that is building up on earth. They are not people pleasers they are God pleasers. They walk in the spirit and know only love.
They have been broken and beaten not by the world but by the church. The wave is growing and soon will bring real freedom to a dying world where so often wounds and bruises are ignored by many labeled Christians. The power of the Wave will go where no sea has gone before. The impact of God's love will overcome all who stand in its way. There will be a cleansing in The body of Christ. A washing of love by his Spirit. The wave will fill the highways and byways accepting all who call on his name. How wonderful will that Wave be Shawn when we can stand beside each other and not judge but love one another as he loved us.
Sorry to ramble Shawn but I really sense an awakening coming of brothers and sisters who love God but no longer for many reasons don't go to church anymore. The Wave will engulf them and all those who love God. The world will know we are his by our love and that alone.
Love you mate. Keep paddling Mark.
(beat) I could not AGREE MORE.
And with that let’s have a word of prayer.
PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER
Authority and Tradition in Christianity
Okay, so we are building a case for why true Christianity is utterly spiritual, wholly subjective, and that the focus on brick and mortar objective religion (with all of its demanded distinctives) is all but over. This is essentially what Mark just described.
Last week we pointed out that there are two essential ways Christianity has approached doing church and church authority –
There are those that claim apostolic authority – like the Roman Catholics, the Eastern orthodox and the Mormons (who claim the authority was restored to them in the 1830’s.)
And then there are Protestant claims which said (back then) that authority (otherwise known as the Christian priesthood) is “shared by all believers,” and is not centralized in one institution.
Roman Catholic apologists today suggest that the Church started with “Pope Peter” governing, and that scripture could NOT be taken alone – that church traditions and standards had to be included in the mix in order to maintain order. To support this they often point to the vast number of Protestant denoms which they say proves Sola Scriptura leads to religious anarchy.
So, again, they maintain that Christianity has long been backed by scripture AND Church tradition AND authority. And they quote early church Fathers who said things like:
- Athanasius (300-375)
- “But beyond these sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers kept." (Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28).
- Basil (330-379)
- "Now I accept no newer creed written for me by other men, nor
Authority and Tradition in the Church
"Do I venture to propound the outcome of my own intelligence, lest I make the words of true religion merely human words; but what I have been taught by the holy Fathers, that I announce to all who question me. In my Church the creed written by the holy Fathers in synod at Nicea is in use." (To the Church of Antioch, Epistle 140:2).
- Ambrose (340-396)
- "Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth," (Commentary of Psalm 118,19).
- Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386)
- "But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures . . . Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them in the table of your heart." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350).
Gregory of Nyssa (330-394) “And let no one interrupt me, by saying that what we confess should also be confirmed by constructive reasoning: for it is enough for proof of our statement, that the tradition has come down to us from our Fathers, handled on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them," (Against Eunomius, 4:6).
These quotes are admittedly powerful and if we take them at face value we might convince ourselves that the Church was to continue, was established on scripture, is established on Church tradition and lines of apostolic authority – as these five early church fathers suggest.
Historical Validation and Corruption
But we have to note that all of these quotes came AFTER the council of Nicea when the “church” laid claim to authority and brick and mortar centrality. I would suggest that this would naturally be the stance at this time. But let’s consider this position seriously. Doing so we have to ask, “Is are these quotes proven valid by history?
In other words, have any of these churches that claim authority – with their men, and history, and tradition and practices proven impervious to corruption which would prove God’s hand and approbation? See, if God’s church was managed by tradition and authority, I would think we would have an incorruptible history to prove it. But quite the contrary exists – which can be proven by just a cursory study of the history of Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and even the Greek Orthodox.
Of course, these religious institutions, as a means to defend their sordid histories, practices, and doctrines (using the name and approbation of God) will say things like:
“We’ll God is working with fallible men who are imperfect.”
In my estimation, the line of authority faiths fail to justify their very existence by their sordid, secret, fallible history. But true believers throughout history – individual believers – irrespective of the church they attend, have by the Spirit remained uncorrupted.
The Protestant Viewpoint
Let me give you an insight that came to me yesterday I think goes a long way in explaining this and therefore supporting subjective Christianity over objective. (See notes in booklet)
So we are left with the Protestant Idea that scripture alone is “the final authority.” This approach is so full of problems and holes that it’s no wonder there are more than 32,000 denominations around the world and growing.
Illustration of Interpretative Differences
Before presenting the issues with sola scriptura I want to use something that has inundated social media this past week because it perfectly illustrates how and why the Protestant approach will always be a fail. You have all probably seen the picture by now – a dress sitting in a window of a London shop.
Take a look. SHOW PICTURE OF THE DRESS What colors do you see represented in the dress? My daughters see it as blue and black. I see it as white and gold. In fact I am so certain that the dress is white and gold I would have bet a large sum of money that I was right. But guess what? I am wrong. Here is a picture of the dress from another angle – proving it is definitely black and blue. SHOW BLACK AND BLUE DRESS
What’s the deal? Apparently the photo is a one in a million shot that took the object photographed at a place where the spectrum was at a place where some people’s minds see white and gold and other people’s minds see black and blue. The point is NOT that the dress is actually black and blue neither is the point that some see it as white and …
Understanding Subjective Christianity
Gold, the amazing lesson we get from this situation is people can, will, and do SEE and INTERPRET things differently – honestly believing that what they see is right – without question. And if we will do this over two colors of a dress what will be the result when we take a book of ancient writings, written in ancient languages, translated into different languages and is composed of
1,189 chapters 31,102 verses, and more than 788,000 words?
Friends, the ONLY way to approach the Christian faith is subjectively, by the Spirit, and without any condemnation for people of differing views. Only love. But let me hit you with the first of a dozen or more additional reasons why Sola Scriptura is a fail.
Let’s open up the phone lines – (801)
Episode 433: The Bible Analysis
From: David Anson Brown
Subject: Episode 433: The Bible – Part 5
Message Body:
Hi Shawn & HOTM family,
I just watched Episode 433: The Bible – Part 5.
Your analysis of Objective vs Subjective is insightful and helpful and I think it goes a long way in revealing much of what is wrong with the Church today. The area where the analogy doesn't work is when it is mixed with Preterism. Saying that much of Christianity is Subjective is accurate and helpful as it always has been since the resurrection. The wrapping of Subjective Christian beliefs with the completely Objective confines of the arbitrary 70 AD of Preterism and the vast array of 'Objective' changes that possibly occurred in 70 AD makes it a system of clashing objectives.
Teaching a Subjective Christianity in a framework of Objective Christian beliefs would seem much more plausible in the one (since the resurrection) ongoing Christian Church Age rather than adding changes in and then calling it Subjective.
God bless you brother!
DAVID A B
Debate and Communicating Differences
From Pastor Bill S. in Wallace Idaho:
A word to the wise: When debating never apologize to the opponent because it shows a lack of preparation or a weak position. Stay strong and direct. Rolling of eyes and sarcasm are out of place. You did a great job just engaging him. I would have told him long ago this conversation is over as is your harassment and not allowing him a greater platform. Wish we had about a dozen of your guys to help bring Christ to our lost town.
I have a question: If we didn't exist before we are born, what does the scripture in Isaiah 14:12-15 mean? Also Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Revelation 12:4. It sounds like we existed before in heaven. What about the war in heaven and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven chose Satan. It sounds like they existed before earth life.
Just trying to understand the Bible. I'm coming out of Mormonism, and like my oldest son told me (he's 35), now we don't know what we understand that is biblical or is Mormonism.
I'm slowly listening to your old shows. At first I was bouncing all around, now I listen to the weekly broadcast, and am in year 2007 in catch up.
Thanks, Yvonne
Examining Biblical Contradictions
FROM DEE
It was interesting to listen to your opponent's stance; say on circumcision and what he firmly believed Paul said about it. But you could jump to Acts and read "Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." Or you could bring up Jesus saying those who live by the sword, die by the sword but then later Jesus saying sell your cloaks and purchase some swords. "Lord we only have two swords" and His response is "that is enough". Opponents of the Bible say it's contradictory, but I have found that Truth is suspended or held in tension between opposites (take faith vs works for example). I think God intended for it to be written this way so that we would/could not be dogmatic, but to keep us in relationship with the Holy Spirit and keep it real, living, open, authentic; instead of just going, "yep, got that one figured out, yep- know that one already" which would cause us to disengage.
He tells us to be as wise as serpents. How did Paul navigate through life when he shares this with us: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of
Bridging Differences Through Love
Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some." I can guarantee there was a lot of so-called rule-breaking going on to create a bridge and that being a bridge of love, I might add.
FROM JOSHUA IN TAIWAN
Hey, Shawn!
Appreciate the reply, my brother. I know you’re super busy, so I’ll keep this brief. Saw an episode of the show just last week in which you talked about universal reconciliation. Can’t tell you how much my heart leaped to hear that! It’s a biblical teaching and stretches all the way back to Paul and the church fathers thereafter. The teaching has infused me with an invincible optimism, knowing that no matter how bad things get for me personally or for the world, our Father is in total control and He will judge justly.
Diverse Doctrinal Perspectives
FROM SCOTLAND
From: David McMurdo
Subject: Well Done Shawn
Message Body:
Hi Shawn,
You almost certainly won’t remember me, but we exchanged emails a few years ago on the subject of family names and their origins since I live in Scotland and you had ancestors that had come from here. At that time you were still focused exclusively on reaching out to Mormons and were very orthodox in your doctrines. I differed a lot from you at that time, especially since I had rejected the trinity and the deity of Christ. Nonetheless, I could perceive that you were a sincere individual, and that's enough for me to acknowledge anyone as a brother.
A friend of mine recently called into your show (William from Scotland) and I thought I’d send an email to also commend you on your bravery in scrutinizing the sacred cows of Christianity in the face of so much hostility. Although William is from the Lowlands and I'm from the Highlands, the church in Scotland as a whole is all but dead, and so there aren’t the kind of structures here to attack us in the way that you have been attacked by church leaders in your area. Because of this, it was relatively easy for us to come to reject the trinity, reject eternal torment, accept preterism, and so on.
I know how much negativity you receive because of your quest for truth, so I thought I’d send a little additional positivity your way. When I first stumbled across your show by accident all those years ago I thought you were a genuinely nice guy who was just different from me doctrinally, but you’ve shown yourself to be much more. You’ve shown yourself to be a genuine truth-seeker, and I applaud you for that, even if your journey ultimately takes you to a different place than myself once again. There’s no doubt in my mind that you’re serving as an inspiration to far more people around the world than you know.
Encouragement and Challenges
FROM DR. RIVERA
GOOD JOB PASTOR SHAWN. HE IS REVEALING THE MIND OF THOSE WHO INTERPRET AS HE DOES, YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED. BUT GREATER IS HE WHO IS IN YOU THAN HE OR [THEY] WHO IS IN THE WORLD. STAND YOUR GROUND, CONTINUE ON YOUR KNEES AND FIGHT LIKE THE MAN CHRIST JESUS HAS AWAKENED YOU TO BE.
From: Withheld
Subject: LDS frustration
Message Body:
I am so angry at the LDS institution due to the impact it has had on my family and the destruction it has caused. Just a small observation. The church denies the White Horse Doctrine because of the lack of evidence (of which there’s plenty), yet they promote the "truthfulness" of the BOM despite the absence of ANY (any-any-any) evidence to support it. They (the church leaders) have got to know they are serving up a steaming plate of sugar-coated lies. Watching loved ones engage in willful ignorance is so painful to witness.
Oh, and the true objective of a mission? I think it’s less about proselytizing and more about breaking one's spirit. And that’s just the tip of my personal iceberg! UGH!!!!!!! Name withheld
Thank you so much for your ministry. Bless you.
From: Launa Williis
I would like to know what early members of the church were attracted to? What did they use to attract new members back then if not the first vision story? Until now, I thought it was the same "first vision" I taught as a missionary, but that could not have been since it was not distributed and probably not fully developed. I guess I thought I was telling the same story Joseph Smith told his family in 1820 without variance. I can see that.
Discussion on the Trinity
From: Henrik
Subject: Help with trinity
Message Body:
Shawn, I would like to help with the trinity argument and I feel for you, the frustration you must have felt during the inquisition a year ago. I copied my comment from the youtube video and I would like to exchange some more ideas and I got to say that the bible is one of my favorite books, I have read it cover to cover three times.
Philosophical Approach to the Trinity
I have a thought on the problem with the persons that supposedly build up the "trinity", and it's a philosophical approach. We were made in Gods image and without a physical body we are in essence a spirit, a disembodied consciousness. God is spirit according to scripture, and in our consciousness we have thoughts that is manifested in words (could also work the other way around, words manifested in thought), then we have a soul (which is up for debate, I would like to believe that we have an immortal soul) which without our body would be called a ghost, so Gods soul would to us be a holy ghost.
Manifestation of God's Word
So the problem with the son of god is just as simple that Gods word was manifested in the flesh (to us a physical body) and in limitation of the human condition the only word we could describe a physical, in the flesh, manifestation of the word of God was "A SON". Something to think about anyway.
