Heart of the Matter: Show 27 504

Pre-Mortal Existence – Part IV

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host.

July 5th, 2016

Our prayer tonight will be given by:

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(RUN SORROW PROMO HERE PLEASE)

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Exploring the Term 'Aionios'

Got this question from Carlos in Arizona and it’s a good one:

“Thank you addressing my previous question on air. I'm sorry to keep harping on this subject. I went through your series on total reconciliation again and did not find an answer to another issue I ran into. Mathew 25:46 everlasting punishment and life eternal both use aionios. If we are saying it's a limited time frame for one, why is the other not so? Not that I'm advocating for a non-eternal heaven but it would seem to work out like this if aionios is only a verb of aion and not meant to be everlasting. Please help me if you have some thoughts on this?”

This is an excellent question because it reflects one of the main arguments for eternal endless punishment. What people say is, “Do you believe that we have eternal life by grace through faith?” And Christians say, “Yes I do. That’s what the Bible says.” And then they will say something like, “Well the word for eternal (as in eternal life) is the same word applied to hell – and so if you believe there is an eternal afterlife waiting for the faith-filled then you must be intellectually honest and admit that there is an eternal punishment for the faithless.” And people find themselves stuck.

I would suggest the following: The Bible is applicable to the living. And the contents speak to the ages in which God is working with and redeeming humankind. I do NOT know when these ages or spans of defined time begin or end, but I know that they have both a beginning and that they also have an end. The Greek term for eternal is aionios – where we get eon and where we get age – and I would suggest that this term means what it suggests – That in God’s relationship to man there is an age wherein He labors. There will come a time when that age will end – both for the faithful and for the faithless. What comes thereafter is unknown.

Biblical Support for 'Aionios' as Ages

I support this view through a few passages of scripture taken together. First, we read in several places in scripture the following in Psalm 110:

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

This passage is quoted more than ANY other O.T. passage in scripture – like five times I think. Then we come to a set of passages that indirectly speaks to the passage. They are found in 1st Corinthians 15:23-28. Now listen to them carefully. Paul has been writing about the resurrection and says:

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(This passage makes His coming a VERY important event in the work of God among men. Then Paul adds that after the resurrection of all that are Christ’s at His coming)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(This describes the end of an age does it not?)

25 For he must reign, (for how long) until he hath put all enemies under his feet.

(This also describes the end of an age, right – until He has put all enemies under His feet.)

The End of Former Ages

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God.. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In light of these passages I would suggest that when all things have been put under His feet (which I believe has happened) and all things are subdued unto Him, then the Son shall also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him and that God is now all in all. I would suggest that these passages strongly describe an end to all the former age (both hellish and the age of heaven with Christ reigning) and that we all enter into a new age – one that scripture does NOT define nor describe.

Hope this helps Carlos. Great seeking.

A Moment from the Word

We haven’t done this in a while but how about . . .

(RUN INTRO HERE PLEASE)

You know one of the things I have pushed over the years is that Christians ought to back the heck away from “fighting the world” in the name of Christ. And while this suggestion is applicable to the warfare some Christians believe they should wage in Jesus’ name (you know, against burlesque and alcohol and abortion and homosexuality) I want to talk about something that will ruffle most people’s feathers – speaking evil of those put in office over us.

Biblical Guidance on Leaders

For some reason Christians today (those who claim to love the Bible and to follow it) believe they get a pass and have a right to rail on the leaders we have over us in office. The Bible suggests something different, however. Let’s start way back in the book of Exodus where God says to Moses:

Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods (this is a lower case G and means human judges and leaders placed in authority over the people) and then God adds, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

NOR CURSE THE RULER OF THE PEOPLE.

Why is it that whether it be online or over the pulpit Christians today believe they have the right to speak evil (curse) Presidents Obama and Clinton. We claim to love the Bible but we openly ignore these directions without any justification whatsoever? But the biblical warnings do not stop in Exodus.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 10:20 “Curse not the king, no not in thy thought;

Luke wrote in Acts 23:5, quoting Paul who said:

“Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.”

And in describing the reprobates of his day, Jude says

Jude 1:8 . . . these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Echoing these sentiments Peter, speaking of the fallen says:

2 Peter 2:10 “ . . . chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.”

Respect for Authority

But the most direct and expanded opinion on the matter comes from Paul in Romans 13 who says:

Romans 13:1-6 “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

What is the proper, non-American Evangelical attitude toward all leaders put in place over us – to respect and support them in Jesus name – no exceptions.

We’re talking about humbly refraining from speaking evil of

The Balance of Identity and Charity

People will often respond to this by asking, “Okay, I get what you are saying – as a Christian we ought to keep Jesus out of the mix, but what about as an American Citizen. Do I have the right to speak out?” Of course, you do. But I would have to ask in return? “What are we above all things – Americans or sold-out followers of Christ? I know how I answer that. If someone wants to mix the two or be an American before they are a Christian that is their choice – but as for me and my house we will serve the LORD. And with that how about a Critical Commentary (like they’re not all critical commentaries).

Engineered Charity in Churches

One of the modern-day trappings found in many brick and mortars today is the promotion of engineered charity – the get on board and save the world causes. What I mean by this specifically is when churches get behind programs and causes that claim to be focused on saving the world from poverty, starvation, or economic devastation. I have long found most of these appeals to be empty causes which in the long run, upon examination, actually do more harm than good. That being said, I do see the need for churches and institutions to rally behind countries and peoples who have experienced sudden and recent devastation like earthquakes or Tsunamis – but when circumstances in a country are more systemic and part of the countries historical fabric I am firmly committed to the idea that the churches ought to back the hell away – unless they are churches IN that country. I have a few reasons for this view and I share them tonight to contribute to the drive for Christian Churches to deconstruct and to step away from material causes and plights.

The Skimming Dilemma

Have you EVER wondered why a local church here in America would choose to put up a poster of a bloated fly-covered child at its entrance or give time during their services to promote some cause seeking financial support? Don’t the churches want financial contributions to go directly into their coffers? Why would they allow some side cause share in the solicitation for funds? Because of the skim. Churches want all their congregates to contribute to it financially. But not all do. Where some will refuse to contribute to a church coffers directly (but will nonetheless attend regularly and benefit from the sermons and facilities) those very same congregates might be willing to donate to what they believe is directly to a worthwhile cause – like filling the belly of that starving child and shoeing the flies away. What many people don’t realize is church will often gather up what has been donated to the starving child, take their taste (which can be substantial) off the top, and then forward the remainder to the exterior cause. I’ve been to churches during Christmas that have a dozen “causes” lining the entry to the church – all appealing for financial support – but all getting skimmed before any proceeds go to those presented as in need. It’s the same game in the “love offering con.” Invite a guest speaker with a ministry to come to the church and then ask for a love offering to help the speaker's efforts in Uganda, or to the Mormons, or whatever. Before the collected offering is passed on to the speaker however, the Church takes its cut – unbeknownst to those who gave their all to support the one presenting.

NGO Impact and The Call to Reconsider

In a way, these churches act as middlemen between the cause or ministry and the congregate. They are NOT needed. Why would anyone allow their brick and mortar to serve as a wholesaler of their donations to causes that will accept their donations directly? But this isn’t the main reason why believers ought to back away from supporting overseas causes, etc. The brass-tacks reason Christians need to wake up and refuse to support Non-Governmental Organizations (known as NGOs) is that they have been set up under the auspices of “serving poor countries” but when the rubber meets the road they typically hurt the country in need and serve only themselves and their superstructure. Look back to the time when the Boomtown Rat’s Bob Geldolf orchestrated the “Feed the World” campaign in 1984 through “Band Aid.” All the celebs got together and sang about the Africans not knowing that it (SING) “was Christmas time at all?” Everyone was touched.

The Impact of Aid and Self-Reliance

Millions flowed in to help save people who lived in a land where, according to the song:

“Nothing ever grows, nor rain nor rivers flow.”

The problem. It’s not true. Things do grow in Africa, they have farmers, it does rain and rivers do flow. But these NGOs, celebrities, and churches take an approach to the struggling in other countries that says, "We (the providers) are your parents and you (the recipients) are our children and you cannot survive on your own – so we are here to step in and not only provide for you, but to indirectly govern you.” It’s a form of colonialism and at the base of it is control and power and neutering the vast human and natural resources present in places like Africa. This approach, which American churches have fully embraced, winds up causing very capable and intelligent African people (for example) to rely on the imperialist donations of “momma and poppa” rather than equipping them to step up and out of their plight and making use of what they do have – which is a lot – even in Africa.

The Consequences of Charitable Aid

It was 1984 when “Feed the World” hit the airwaves. Things have dramatically changed today. Instead of a half dozen NGOs in the country, there are now thousands – often acting “in the name of Christ,” – and the end results have been both catastrophic and self-serving. How? As I said, the influx of charitable contributions has served to neuter the people who, in their own local industry and through their own efforts, could survive but, as African entrepreneurs explain: “We can’t compete with free.” As an example, prior to Feed the World (and this onslaught of saving the world materially by providing everything for them), Africa actually had rice farmers. They provided enough rice that many Africans were able to have the dish once a week. It was a start. Enter the American do-gooder Christian NGOs and before long Africans were eating rice three times a day, seven days a week – good thing, huh? The problem is the local farmers went out of business. They could not compete with free. Then guess what? The NGO rice suppliers pulled back and decided to focus on sending rice to another struggling country. And now the Africans are down to no rice per week!

Some say, “We’ll at least some African families were eating rice three times a day! We did make a dent!” But at what cost? Their independence? Motivation? Their innovation? Not only does this American imperialism and colonialism live on, 32 years after the pleas came to feed the world and to let them know it’s Christmas time, nothing has changed – EXCEPT, the NGOs have gotten wealthy and rich and bloated due to our government subsidizing their “noble efforts” to save the world. It’s a joke.

A Different Approach to Aid

Ironically, the Christian churches ought to have been all along sending to Africa and other places the message of “Christ Mass Time.” That our job is to bring people spiritual hope and equip them with the tools they need to survive on their own. I have to hand it to the LDS in this area. While they do seem stingy, and I am personally sickened by their temples and billion-dollar shopping malls, they do support with an aim to get people and countries self-reliant. They aren’t perfect – but the Christian approach and participation could learn some lessons from them. In my estimation – which is limited – but if a church has a financial surplus that surplus might go to serving the local community in which the church resides and if ANY monies are going to be allocated to people groups outside of the local community it ought to be solely for missional endeavors or at most to help partner with people in their dreams to improve their lot.

And with that disturbing opinion (to some), let’s hit on our subject tonight – pre-existence part IV.

In LDS founder Joseph Smith's day, the notion of the origins of spirits was that each person’s spirit was created ex nihilo – or out of nothing. A teaching known as traducianism suggests that every human spirit was seminally created in Adam and then individually (and naturally) propagated and passed along through the birth parents. In other words, the breath of life God gave Adam which initiated or launched Adam into life and this spirit or breath passes to each human being a little before or at birth – depending on opinion.

The Debate on Pre-Mortal Existence

There were, however, Christian believers in Smith’s day who were known as “preexistencists.” In fact, a Presbyterian Magazine stated:

“If we must speculate and form a theory on this subject, the safest and most rational is, to suppose that all souls were created at the beginning of the world; that they remain in a quiescent state, till the bodies which they are to inhabit are formed.” (Lectures on the Shorter Catechism of the Westminster Assembly of the Divines, page 530)

Lorenzo Dow, a Methodist preacher speaking of the idea that the spirit of a human was created when it was born wrote the following in 1804, the year Smith was born:

“I deny it, for the Bible says that God finished the heavens and the earth and all the HOST of them (again of the heavens and the earth) and then God rested from the works of creation on the seventh day – he has not been at work creating souls ever since.” (Lorenzo Dow, The Opinion of Dow, page 108)

Dow agreed with the writings found in the Apocrypha (which we mentioned last week) and believed that spirits of humans “were laid up in a store house in heaven in a state of happiness until their mortal bodies were prepared.” (ibid)

Views on Spiritual Origins

At the end of the day, and in my estimation, Jesus Himself made the teaching of a pre-mortal existence clearly faulty when He said that He was from above and we are from below.

The ideal of traducianism seems to best describe our spiritual origins in my estimation but I admit that it is entirely possible that Dow was right, and that in the beginning of all things God did in fact create the heavens and the earth and ALL the hosts of them and that somehow or someway the souls of Man were warehoused until our mortal lives began.

This warehouse may not have been located “above” keeping Jesus words true that he is the only one to have come from the presence of God.

Like MANY things in the Mormon/Christian debate there seems to be room for some give and take on the dogma related to pre-mortal existence.

In my opinion both sides have glommed onto dogmatic positions and have maintained them to be true when both sides need to admit that their views may not be complete, exact or even correct. However, I do not see a persons belief or disbelief in a pre-mortal existence as negating their place with God by His grace through faith on Jesus.

Conclusion

Next week, Mother in Heaven.

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

And while the operators are clearing your calls take a look at this!

Show spot here please

EMAILS

Hi Shawn, I'm not in the LDS church so you can get a breath of fresh air lol! I have a question about Mormonism, now I'm not American, I was born in Poland (99% catholic) and moved to Canada when I was 8…been a Catholic all my life but followed my own heart. I've been driving by a Mormon temple here in Brampton Ontario and never knew what Mormonism was so I came across your show on YouTube and have been doing a little research on my own. What I wanted to ask you is how do Mormons believe in something that is clearly false, to begin with the basics there is no genetic tie to Semitic genes and those found in natives of North America…and clearly there was no Nephi empire nor any horses that were talked about in the book. I watched a documentary on how they tried to link up Aztec and Mayan civilization to the Book of Mormon but there again is no links. How can someone be so blind? Is it the fear of being no longer a part of something? I really enjoy your shows and how to drill them with basic knowledge…keep it up!

From: Jim Eriksen
Subject: Leaving the Church

Message Body: Hi Shawn, I watch your episodes all the time and I have to say you are great at what you do. Thanks for taking the time to read my message. I have never been a member of the LDS myself, but my daughter from my previous relation has become a member. Her mother and I split up when our daughter was about 7 years old. She met another man a year later and started dating and eventually married within a few years. When my daughter was about 10 they got a knock on their door from some missionaries and they allowed them into their home and the rest is history. They soon became

Navigating Family Dynamics with LDS Beliefs

So involved in the church no regardless what I wanted for my daughter did not matter. My daughter is now 22 been with the church for 12 years, got baptized when she was 18 (because they need both parents approval I was told). I did not want her to get Baptized by the Mormon church so I said no. My daughter was of course upset so she had to wait until she was 18 to do so. She met a man fresh off his missionary and they got married 6 months later. They wanted to marry in the Temple which of course I was not allowed to witness and it broke my heart to not walk my daughter down the aisle. She told me she would have a service which would allow me to do this at a future date. She was already married by this point and it was just a formality to "satisfy" everyone else of non-LDS faith. They have been married since 2012 and she does not have any kids yet partly because she has not graduated College yet. She does this year though.

My question has her father….. What can I say to her since she is so closed minded about anything outside her precious LDS church that will make her start questioning things? If I start talking bad about the church or how it is not true she wont listen and she will cut me off. Religion is something we just cannot discuss because it will upset her. She knows I will never convert to LDS so she never tries. Shawn I just need something that will be respectful and it wont sound like bashing or going against her belief that will make her question things. As soon as she has kids she is going to bring them up LDS. I also worry her husband will put her back in place if she does start questioning things. Any angles that are safe that I can start planting the seed? I appreciate you taking the time to read through my message. Thank you again.

Transitioning Out of Mormonism

From: Geoff
Subject: Transitioning Out of the Church & Family
Message Body:
Hi…not sure if Shawn has time to read and respond to many emails but I would love to hear from him if possible. I've been watching your shows on youtube for quite some time and just finished watching your "Mormon Stories" episodes from a few years back. Just want to say that we've got A LOT in common and I really appreciate what you are doing.

So here are my questions…

1. Do you have any advice on transitioning out of the church with an active wife and children. My wife has not freaked out about me losing my testimony but she's certainly scared about the thought of me leaving. We're both well aware of the possible repercussions from family and friends within our ward and church 'family.' I think our biggest worry is our kids. We've got 3 (9, 11, and 13). I think our relationship with them is good enough that they wouldn't completely freak out if we sat them down and told them what we now know…but obviously it would have unpredictable effects on them. I know you've been through this with your own family so I would really appreciate your perspective. Also, you mentioned that one of your daughters works with you in your ministry – it would be helpful to get her thoughts (if possible).

Exploring Alternatives

2. I'm not moving out of the church quickly (still active with a calling) and a big part of that is that I don't know what to do next. My biggest fear is losing God all-together. I'm tempted to start 'church shopping' but I'm afraid that could back-fire on me (unfortunately, I think there are just as many ignorant Christians as there are Mormons). If I was in Utah I would just show up at one of your Sunday study sessions but I live in Arizona. Do you have any contacts down this way that I could reach out to?

Thanks again for all you are doing. I really appreciate your sincerity and passion for truth. I hope that I can find that zeal for the Lord. Truthfully though, right now I feel like a ship without an anchor and, well, it just really sucks.
Thanks,
Geoff

From: Erin Taylor
Subject: I am Transgender
Message Body:
DEAR MORMON CHURCH. I have been a Mormon my entire life even served a mission honorably. I had an emotional call with a family member who I love deeply and NEED so

The Fight Against Abuse

"If you are not male or female, or if you change from male to female and vice versa, you are incapable of parenting. You are either dad or mom OR lose that ABILITY. Its X or Y chromosome." Now, I take issue with this statement and clearly the statement was made by someone not knowledgeable about genetics or the nature of atomic material or what it means to be a human being. Gender has nothing to do with the ability to LOVE, to be DECENT, to be COMPASSIONATE, to have EMPATHY. Neither does hair color, eye color, the number of digits on your fingers or toes, or the lack thereof.

We are all products of a society structured by ABUSERS who sought to abuse children in mines and child labor and against stopping it—ABUSERS who said women were not equal to men, ABUSERS who determined an ORGAN such as skin differentiated worth to God and Man, ABUSERS who say Gay and Lesbian sons and daughters deserve death, abandonment, a life of poverty. Again ABUSERS who justify abandoning their own children in the name of God.

Don't you see, this is not a fight simply for EQUALITY, it is a fight against ABUSERS. Those who desire a system that propagates their ability to leverage abuse as power over another human being to justify behavior, most often in the name of a God who explicitly said, "It is not your job to judge, but to LOVE all EQUALLY, to treat EVERYONE as your EQUAL." Nowhere in there did HE say, except in this circumstance or that. I know ABUSERS all too well. I was abducted as a child, and I survived not just going through the pain, but growing through it.

The Role of Faith

I have seen firsthand what ABUSERS do—they convince you that you are less than them. They convince you that they deserve more than you. As you struggle through the cycle of hate which justifies the abuse, you read about a God, more often than not, their own, who says, I am just like you and you are just like me and together we have a divine destiny. Then man came along and determined for himself that he was God over the Earth, and the emergence of the ABUSER arrived, driving a WEDGE between the heart of a man and the heart of a Creator. I do not have all the answers. I do not know why these things happen or why so many desire to ABUSE, but what I do know is that GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES, but he does demand COURAGE!

Now, I consider myself a Mormon because it is the faith I most closely associate with, but I also draw a thick line in the sand when it comes to ABUSE. I would have done the same in 1919 when the CHURCH LEADERS fought against woman's rights. I would have done the same in the 1960s when the Mormon Church Leaders mandated all African Americans were the less valiant in Heaven and deserved their plight in a time when the MORMON CHURCH fought against desegregation. Each time the MORMON CHURCH AND MOST ALL OF SOCIETY FOUGHT TO PROPAGATE CONTINUED ABUSE AND NOT LOVE OR ACCEPTANCE, TO DRAW BATTLE LINES OF RELIGIOUS SEGREGATION OF HEAVEN, when we all know he said to Love ALL, not to Judge all.

The Power of the Next Generation

I do not condone hatred, and I believe a time is coming when the wolves in sheep clothing will be hewn down and thrown out, not by a God but by our CHILDREN who won't tolerate this behavior any longer. Whose side will you be on? Because a decision will need to be made. Will you fight for the ABUSERS WHO NEED SEGREGATION TO CONTINUE TO ABUSE OR WITH YOUR CHILDREN WHO WON'T TOLERATE THIS BEHAVIOR? I think our children have taught us more than we think.

It was children who grew up and ended woman's suffrage, it was children who grew up and ended segregation against the black man, and it was children who grew up and would not tolerate a society that condemned gays and lesbians as inhuman. They said enough is enough. I say enough is enough. I was told today, if I go forward with my sex change that I will be excommunicated by the Mormon Church. I was told it is in the handbook. I was also told today that a Stake President of the Mormon Church, who I have never met, that my children are not to have any contact.

Critique of the LDS Church

with me because I am fallen and will confuse them. Point made, ABUSERS at every level. I've kept this quiet, out of respect for my Mormon Family but enough is enough. The CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS is an institution of ABUSE where Children of God are being banished based upon atomic material that remains here after I leave this world. Out of respect I haven't mentioned I am a MORMON, so here I go national and publicly. I am a Mormon but I am NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH NOR AM I SUPPORTIVE OF THE INSTITUTION THAT IS GOVERNED BY MEN WHO HAVE NOT HAD THE BEST TRACK RECORD OF CIVIL RIGHTS OR LOVE. I am disappointed in my faith, my local WARD/Congregation, and I can say this with Confidence. Your time is up, our time is now and from this moment forward I am calling you out, a letter read from the pulpit from the First Presidency of the Church is not enough. Institutions exist that have become immune to Federal oversight and that will change when they are exposed for being ABUSERS.

There you have it. I have not found love in the Mormon Church and I fear for their children who have the courage to simply say, Mom and Dad, I think something's wrong. I am greatly saddened today by the BEHAVIOR OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS! If you human hate, you are an abuser and you do not deserve to abuse anyone anymore and I look forward to the day when the Government strips these divisive collections of abusers of their DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY AS THEY SEEK TO DIVIDE TO JUSTIFY THEIR BEHAVIOR. WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING. Gender does not build character, LOVE DOES. Its hard to imagine being told I shamed my family. What is a true shame is a family who will abandon their own children in front of their Community and a Community that condones it through complacency and complicity. That's a Shame, what is a real shame, putting your head down and hiding in a building of dirt and stone while silently condoning religious segregation and abuse.

Personal Changes

I am getting a sex change because I HAVE COURAGE, something the Mormon Church has shown over and over again they lack…until they are compelled. I say Mormon Church because until the leaders of the Institution force their collections of humans to love and stop hating in such a vulgar and ungodly way it is the Mormon Church who carries this mark of shame against children of God. My name is ERIN AND I AM A DISAPPOINTED AND ASHAMED to be a MORMON. I am done with the overflow of ABUSE IN OUR NATION AND SO SHOULD YOU! To my Mormon family and leadership, you have no idea why things are the way they are and that wasn't your job to figure out! Either be GLUE Give Love Unconditionally to Everyone or stop making decisions for other people that only cause Hate Hurt and Abuse. My name is Erin Taylor before I was a Mormon I was a Human Being.

Request for Christian Venues

Hey Shawn,

Here is a request from a friend of a friend looking for a venue to help deliver his message. I thought of you. Here's the scoop:

"If anyone knows of a Christian venue that meets the description below, please contact me and let me know:

I would like to give three talks, one in California, one in Texas and one in Atlanta. I will pay my own travel costs, and do not expect or want to be compensated for speaking. The audience should be comprised of Christians, and not Mormons. I would like to record the talks and make them available on-line for others to hear. The size of the venue is unimportant. I would prefer a theological school, but would welcome any venue with a Christian audience, including a church if one were available. Below is a brief biographical description you can use to solicit the invitation:

I converted to the LDS church when 19 years old, and served faithfully for 40 years. Among other things, I was an Elder’s Quorum President, Sunday School President, Bishop’s counselor, Ward Mission Leader, High Councilor, and Graduate Institute Instructor. I taught for three years at BYU Education Week on the Brigham Young University campus in Provo, Utah. I graduated from the J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University in 1980, and have practiced law for 36 years. I have authored 15 volumes on Mormonism, including Mormon history and doctrine. I was excommunicated for publishing a

Exploring LDS Church Perspectives

Book challenging the traditional LDS church narrative of its history, and offering a new interpretation of the events. My excommunication was directed by Elder Russell M. Nelson, current President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS church.

I will be addressing the topic of Joseph Smith as a significant Christian figure, worthy of considering alongside all other important Christian thinkers, writers, and martyrs.

You can send a response to dssnuffer@gmail.com

Perspectives on Being 'Born Again'

Hi Shawn,

I am excited to have found your site as I have a few Mormon friends that I converse with. They are real keen to convert me. They just don't understand the workings of God's Spirit in a Christian's life. The Spirit convicts and converts.

One of my friends just wrote an email to me regarding the Born Again question. Some of his statements surprised me as I am unfamiliar with this aspect of Mormonism. It seems Mormons don't need to be born again or accept Christ as their personal Saviour. Amazing stuff. What Spirit is leading that church?

Quoting:

Whenever a 'born again' (like my cousin) says to me "Have you accepted Jesus as your Savior?" It really annoys me and I respond with something like…

"He has always been my Savior and everybody's for that matter—my endorsement means nothing. He is always there we don't need to accept him, but we can come to recognise his divinity… rather what I am hoping is that he will ACCEPT me as a disciple, recognising my faith in him and my commitment to him and his Gospel."

Do you think this is a wise response or am I unnecessarily pushing a point?

I responded with scripture, shared my experience, and asked why he gets annoyed. Then I googled Born Again Mormon? And, no need to guess, your website popped up as one of the first. I like your statement of Faith and Purpose. Pretty much kosher. Anyway, any light you can shed on the Mormon born again dislike will be great.

I am a Born Again Seventh Day Adventist Christian. I hope you won't hold that against me, bro.

Blessings,
Peter

Concerns About LDS Symbolism

From: Robert Chard
Subject: Mormons LDS
Message Body:

I thought I would email to say thanks to Sean I almost became a part of an accult. The LDS people need to know there are bad spirits around them and the symbols that are turned upside down facing towards the ground are demonic. I have studied demonology for years. I don't think people in the LDS Church liked me much because I smoke, drink, have fun, eat as much as I want. I also have 2 children. My younger daughter turned to me; she is only 3 years old and said I love Jesus and the missionary went and our prophets. I was furious she was so confused. I am not christened but I am a Christian because I love the trinity and we all will never understand it fully because our God is a mystery. LDS need to know there are no ties in their religion and their false doctrines. I hope you get this message.

Many blessings,
Rob from England
Thank you.