Perseverance of the Saints
Live from Salt Lake City, Utah
This is heart of the Matter, where we do all we can to try and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And I’m Shawn McCraney, your host.
Show 22 448 Matt Slick – Part V
Perseverance of the Saints
June 2nd 2015
Discussion on "P" of TULIP
Well tonight is the final coverage on TULIP between brother Matt Slick of CARM and myself. The topic tonight is the P of the TULIP – representing Perseverance of the Saints – first Matt’s presentation and then mine.
But first let’s begin with a prayer.
PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER PRAYER
Take it away brother Slick.
(Back from Slick)
And now in response… me.
Calvinist Belief and Salvation
So – our final point of the five. The Calvinist believes that once quickened by God’s “efficacious Grace,” the regenerated believer can never fall away. The change effected on him or her is permanent and eternal. The Westminster Confession says, "They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved" (Chapter XVII, Section 1). We summarize this point today by saying, “once saved always saved.”
The arguments are abundant for and against this position and can really only be solved by a disciplined observance of all the Bible, not just select passages. I see two questions rising out of the Calvinist position of “Perseverance of the Saints” or “Once saved always saved:” The first is when is Salvation actually granted and the second is once it has been granted or obtained or whatever, can a person who has actually received it walk away. The Calvinist seems to suggest, like most Protestants, that there is a moment in a believer's life when they have been saved, and then accepting this they then suggest this status can never be lost.
In Calvinism, this final point seals the deal of the five points and does make a whole lot of sense – if a person embraces the other four points. Think about it. IF man is Totally Incapable of choosing God then God unconditionally elects him to be His, THEN Jesus atoned for them specifically (because God elected them) and this election is irresistible or totally effective in granting them a new heart and saving them on the spot, then the idea of once saved makes perfect sense. Since God has done EVERYTHING in the process He’s not gonna fail in the final phase, right? It’s sort of like a computer company guaranteeing their products will NEVER EVER break down because God made it.
Human Free Will
But IF (and to me this is NOT an if) but if human beings have a hand in any of these steps – For instance if they are NOT totally incapable and have the ability to receive or reject Him, (etc, etc.,) then “Once saved always saved” doesn’t hold nearly as much water – and we would have to allow for the fact that an individual has the right to detach from the vine and walk. Notice I did NOT say lose – I said they have the right.
I am personally convinced that the real problem with the “Once saved always saved” position lies in a faulty presupposition resting in the heart of most Protestant views. This faulty presupposition is the idea that salvation is seen as a past occurrence in the lives of people who have experienced it rather than a promise that will be fulfilled for those who choose to abide in Christ by faith. It is quite common in Protestant circles to hear people ask, "When were you saved?" Admittedly, and in the spirit of scriptural paradox that God allows, there are places in the New Testament that speak of salvation in the past tense. But in my estimation we have fifty times more passages (and teachings) that clearly suggest that salvation is actually announced in this life (by the Spirit) but awarded only once life is complete.
So it’s not so much that the question of when were you saved is wrong but it should probably be rephrased to ask: When did you receive your invitation to the Kingdom?
1 Peter 1:5
"Through faith [you] are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Later in verse seven through nine he said:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and
Faith and Salvation
honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The implication here is we will experience trials to our faith with the end being the salvation of our souls. Future tense. Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 1:22: “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” We might liken the anointing and the earnest of the Spirit to a golden invitation made good by continued faith in the Son. Speaking of himself Paul said in
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Earlier he said something very interesting in 1st Corinthians 9:27. Speaking of himself he said: “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
Conditional Promises
If the New Testament authors saw salvation as a future event, then it is not productive to any discussion to ask whether a man "can lose his salvation." Can’t lose something one has NOT yet received so the whole argument is mute. Instead of saying Once saved always saved the phrase ought to be, “once invited always invited.” Again, the invitation, once received by Grace through faith is ALWAYS there, but the earnest of the Spirit will only be fully known and received at the death of the individual. For the Christian final salvation is conditioned upon continuing in the way of faith and bringing forth the "fruit" of Christian living – love. There is no getting around this no matter what Calvin constructed in his attempt to systemize scripture.
Jesus said very plainly, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit" (John 15:5). But we have to note in this same teaching that the unfruitful branches that do not bear fruit (remember, these are branches that have grown out of Christ the vine so they are His) will be are "picked up, thrown into the fire and burned" (15:6).
Perseverance in Faith
In Colossians 1:22 Paul tells the Colossians they were reconciled by Christ "holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" but notice he was careful to qualify that statement with: "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (v.23). Almost without exception (and the exceptions never make a good rule) the promises of the Scripture are always conditioned upon perseverance in the faith in Christ. We cannot take singular passages like John 10:27-28 and construct a point of doctrine while ignoring the rest of scripture. By the way in John 10:27-28 Jesus says: "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." Calvinists and other believers in "eternal security" argue that real apostasy of a born-again person is an impossibility because Christ said that his sheep "shall never perish." I think what Christ said is true – His Sheep will not perish because they are His true to the end.
God makes promises – but most are completely conditioned on abiding in Him the vine by faith. To suggest that this faith is distributed by God outside of the compliance and acceptance of Man ignores tens of dozens of “If” conditions scripture attaches to his promises. The promises are to be understood in the light of conditions, even in those
The Continuation of Faith and Apostasy
There are far, far too many texts that support the notion that continued faith is requisite for the invitation to remain valid. This leads us to the second question produced by the once saved always saved presuppositional teaching: Can a person who has received an invitation to the Kingdom, can a branch in the vine of Christ, can someone who has actually tasted what God offers them willfully turn from the invitation that is continuously offered? Absofreaking-lutely. The passages that warn Christians against falling away or apostasy give no end of trouble to Calvinists. And listen – if God cannot guarantee the salvation of those He has elected to salvation then the whole Five Points fall apart.
So let’s look at scripture. Remember as you read that to warn against falling implies that a person has reached a height from which to fall. Let’s begin with Jesus' words already referenced:
Scripture References
Just one verse:
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Paul says in Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Peter speaks of those who have forgotten that they were purged of their old sins in 2nd Peter 1:8, saying:
“For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.”
Paul said in 1st Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
In the next chapter Paul says, speaking of widows:
1st Timothy 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
Warnings Against Apostasy
As strong as these are let’s wrap up with verses far more on point:
Hebrews 3:6 “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”
Six verses later:
Hebrews 3:12-13 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Three chapters later:
Hebrews 6:6 “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
What about Hebrews 10:26-29
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Let’s conclude with . . .
19 “. . . for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
Friends, the Five Point Calvinist, by virtue of the hoop jumping and rationalizing and scripture wresting that needs to be done to these simple scriptures to make them fit into their man-made philosophy, loses the entire battle on these final points.
Apostasy and Questions on Election
Christians are NOT in the constant peril of apostasy. We have been delivered and He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world. He equips us, protects us, walks with us, and does NOT let us go due to failures or sins or moments of faithlessness. But like His entire plan of salvation, God – who is love and as such adores liberty and freedom – will allow for any person to abandon their faith for the world, making apostasy entirely possible for genuine Christians who have tasted the fruit of the Spirit through Christ Jesus.
Questions and Answers Session
We are going to take a quick break, and when we come back Matt and I are going to take an extra thirty minutes for a Q and A.
(SHOW SPOT HERE FOR WEB-STORE HIGHLIGHTING BUMPERSTICKERS)
Okay – I have ______ questions for brother Slick. You ready Matt?
I had someone quote Jesus’ words found in Matthew 7:7-8 which say, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” How do you respond to this teaching in light of total depravity? In other words, why the suggestion if it is God who enables and prompts someone to ask and seek?
We received another email from a faithful long-time viewer named Bob who asked: “Matt, I’ve heard you say that Mormons worship the wrong Jesus and God. However, after reading some of the teachings of John Calvin, I am wondering what book you are reading to get the concepts of God that YOU believe about Jesus and God.” For example:
- Calvin taught that God tricks some of the same people that he dooms into hell that He loves them.
- He also says that God ordains every evil act that has ever been done? So if a child is raped, is it God’s will?
I understand Bob’s confusion. Let me reiterate.
- God knows and knew all things and always has?
- He knew before creating any of us who He would elect?
- He did not elect them due to ANYTHING they did or represent but of His own goodwill?
- Those He elected did nothing to choose Him either?
- So knowing who He would choose He created human beings knowing full well He would never choose them, and in creating them KNEW they would literally burn forever in a fiery hell?
- You say that we all deserve hell, but God knew this before creating us right?
- So before creating us He knew we would all deserve eternal hell but chose to elect only some to life – the question is, didn’t he tacitly create all the rest for hell?
Is it sinful for me to desire and want all people to be saved?
Is there a sign that accompanies a person who is elected?
What do you think of the water baptism of infants?
You believe in a Limited Atonement, right? Could Jesus have suffered for the sins of the whole world? If yes, why didn’t He? If no, why couldn’t He?
Belief and Election
I really want to flesh this out again: How does God punish people for not believing when they could NOT believe without Him electing them? If your response is we are all punished for being sinful from the womb. But again, God created us in this state, does NOT save us in this state He created us to, then punishes people with insufferable torture for what? WHY ARE THE NON-ELECT PUNISHED FOR ETERNITY?
We are commanded to believe 233 times in the New Testament and that is presented in the Greek in the Active voice – meaning it’s a choice and act on our part – we do it. First, why the command in the active voice if God elects us to do it and secondly, why is 'believe' never in the Passive voice which means the subject RECEIVES the belief?
For reiteration's sake:
- The thinking goes like this –
Steve is a loyal family man who loves his children and country and wife. He is honest in his job and contributes to the community.
HERE WE GO –
God knows Steve will not be elected before creating him.
Steve is hated by God before, during, and after he is born by the God who created Him.
Steve is actually predestined to go to hell forever before he is born.
Steve cannot repent or change course in his life because God has not nor will He elect Him.
Steve cannot
Theological Struggles with Calvinism
believe in God because God will not elect him to believe. Steve will NEVER be loved by God. Steve was not included in Jesus loving offering for sin and therefore he is even further out of reach and so the question: How does a just loving God punish steve forever in a lake of fire forever and ever and ever?
Concluding Remarks
I embrace all Calvinists and my siblings in Christ, all Arminianists, and frankly anyone who embraces the Biblical definition of the Good News. I think Calvinism is a niche systematic theology for linear-minded people and for those who do not understand it. I am committed to the ideals of Subjective Christianity and refuse to withhold love from ANYONE due to the what I perceive as failures in thinking. But I do believe that Calvinism (not those who embrace it but the tenets of Calvinism itself) should be confronted and exposed. It, like all isms – Judaism, legalism, Mormonism, Arminianist – is just one more illustration of the futility of systematic theology and like all Isms, Calvinism derives its power from “proof-texting” instead of taking in the whole general tenor of Scripture.
The Spirit of Division
Worst of all – and this is something I see more and more – Calvinism, like all Ism’s – tacitly creates a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery in those who are most ardent in their defense of its tenets. All systems and denominations erect walls between believers and inevitably create classes of Christians within the body. Worst of all, Calvinism, as a system and in action, produces an antithetical spirit in the hearts and lives of some who fully embrace it – one of elitism, intellectualism, and finally, the failure to really love. As a Christian I would rather be off on every single theological position and be right in love than to have perfect knowledge and be wrong in unconditional love for all. I pray that seekers of truth will be able to see that Calvinism is NOT Christianity – it’s just another view on how to interpret it. I ardently pray that all who seek to really love unconditionally from the heart will recognize that Calvinism, when said and done, will hinder them in this desire, not help.
